Gender - Page 9 - Talk About Marriage
Politics and Religion This is the place to discuss politics, morality, religion, and anything controversial.

User Tag List

 230Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #121 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:01 PM
Member
 
Kivlor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Rural Midwest
Posts: 3,120
Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Its a bit off topic, but I do not like the idea of modification of children's bodies through circumcision.

I think adults have the right to modify their own bodies, but I also think it is usually a bad idea for them to do so.
You know, I actually wrestled with the male circumcision (outside of rare medical necessity) issue for quite a while. I've come to the conclusion that it is probably not a good thing. It is difficult, because I was circumcised at birth, so I really don't know what it would have been like otherwise, nor can I really envision it. And it's hard to look at your parents and think "Hey! You mutilated your infant son's penis! Why?!"


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
Kivlor is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:03 PM
Member
 
Mr. Nail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Western US
Posts: 2,410
Re: Gender

All right, is it a Lie? I'm going to attack on this point. I'm going back to the Baseball thing Silly as it seems because you are capable of talking about baseball without going rabid.
I live in a society that believes that baseball is the greatest game ever invented. A true mans contest of Skill. An all American pastime. My society as a Whole wants me to enjoy Baseball. But, I don't. I just don't like it. So is it a lie that Baseball is Great or is it a Lie that I don't like baseball. If I don't accept the majority position does that make me a liar, insane, or EVIL?
Kivlor's argument is that my preference for Roman - Greco Wrestling makes me insane, and Evil. And my insistence that I find Baseball boring is a Lie.
Katie thinks that if Wrestling makes me happy I should be allowed to Wrestle whenever I want to.
You are Both wrong. Wrestling with Strangers in a train station is going to get me arrested for Assault. Going to a Base ball game is going to result in a Nap.
It's not as black and White as you think.
Mr. Nail is offline  
post #123 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:04 PM
Member
 
Kivlor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Rural Midwest
Posts: 3,120
Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Relaxxxxxxx

What one thinks Mutilation is may be different than another. Some people think circumcision is mutilation, some don't. Some think breast implants are, some don't. Female circumcision is a hot topic and I won't discuss it here.

The problem is you think you are calling it like it is, but you aren't. Your calling it how you think it is. And that's why this conversation is pointless. Your black and white. You think what you believe is a universal truth to all.
I believe there is a universal truth to most things, and that truth can be discerned in general. I also think I am fallible and human, and so can be wrong. Do you not believe in yourself at all? Do you just hold positions to hold them, not because you think them correct?

I could be wrong. I don't think I am. Prove I am, and I will move my position.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
Kivlor is online now  
 
post #124 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:09 PM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,588
Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nail View Post
All right, is it a Lie? I'm going to attack on this point. I'm going back to the Baseball thing Silly as it seems because you are capable of talking about baseball without going rabid.

I live in a society that believes that baseball is the greatest game ever invented. A true mans contest of Skill. An all American pastime. My society as a Whole wants me to enjoy Baseball. But, I don't. I just don't like it. So is it a lie that Baseball is Great or is it a Lie that I don't like baseball. If I don't accept the majority position does that make me a liar, insane, or EVIL?

Kivlor's argument is that my preference for Roman - Greco Wrestling makes me insane, and Evil. And my insistence that I find Baseball boring is a Lie.

Katie thinks that if Wrestling makes me happy I should be allowed to Wrestle whenever I want to.

You are Both wrong. Wrestling with Strangers in a train station is going to get me arrested for Assault. Going to a Base ball game is going to result in a Nap.

It's not as black and White as you think.


Wrong. I believe you do whatever makes you happy without harming others. If you want to wrestle, you wrestle with people who want to wrestle with you. No one should be doing anything with anyone that doesn't want it done. No consent= harm in my eyes.
katiecrna is offline  
post #125 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:15 PM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,588
Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
I believe there is a universal truth to most things, and that truth can be discerned in general. I also think I am fallible and human, and so can be wrong. Do you not believe in yourself at all? Do you just hold positions to hold them, not because you think them correct?



I could be wrong. I don't think I am. Prove I am, and I will move my position.


Again...
I believe in a lot of things that I hold myself accountable for. But I don't hold others to what I believe. I don't understand why this is difficult for you to understand.
I am Christian. I try to do what God wants me to do. What do I think God wants me to do? Of course this could be debated over and over again. But I don't care what the world thinks. This is between me and my savior. So I read and study the Bible and decide for myself what I think God wants me to do. So... I waited for marriage to have sex. I waited for marriage to live with my husband. I believe in treating others how you want to be treated.

Again... I have a standard for what I believe is right and wrong for ME. I don't believe in policing society to believe in what I believe and than forcing their behavior to coincide with my beliefs.
katiecrna is offline  
post #126 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:17 PM
Member
 
Kivlor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Rural Midwest
Posts: 3,120
Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nail View Post
All right, is it a Lie? I'm going to attack on this point. I'm going back to the Baseball thing Silly as it seems because you are capable of talking about baseball without going rabid.
I live in a society that believes that baseball is the greatest game ever invented. A true mans contest of Skill. An all American pastime. My society as a Whole wants me to enjoy Baseball. But, I don't. I just don't like it. So is it a lie that Baseball is Great or is it a Lie that I don't like baseball. If I don't accept the majority position does that make me a liar, insane, or EVIL?
Kivlor's argument is that my preference for Roman - Greco Wrestling makes me insane, and Evil. And my insistence that I find Baseball boring is a Lie.
Katie thinks that if Wrestling makes me happy I should be allowed to Wrestle whenever I want to.
You are Both wrong. Wrestling with Strangers in a train station is going to get me arrested for Assault. Going to a Base ball game is going to result in a Nap.
It's not as black and White as you think.
I take issue with this because you presume this is a matter of taste. I can play along, if you will continue to be consistent, though. If it is a matter of taste, and I like baseball, which you can't stand, but you like wrestling, which I find abhorrent and barbaric, I'm perfectly fine with you wrestling with people in a private place, and leaving everyone else alone--even though i wish you'd just get with the program and learn to like baseball like the rest of us. We're all baseball fans, and the vast majority (99% in this case) don't like wrestling and think it's icky.

Now, if you want to just randomly wrestle with people in the park or subway, you're in for assault charges. And for a lot of angry baseball players. And if you go around saying that everyone must accept--by force of law--your wrestling as equal to baseball, you are trying to be a tyrant. Even worse is if you think I should be required to teach my children about wrestling, and that it is just as fine as baseball. We don't like it, and we don't have to. We don't want our children around it, and you've no right to force us to do so.

The problem with this analogy Mr. Nail is that it leaves out way too much, and presumes this is a mere matter of taste. If it is just taste, then I agree, you may like wrestling, I like baseball, and we'll just leave each other alone. There is much more to this than that though.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
Kivlor is online now  
post #127 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:18 PM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,588
Re: Gender

Above all else... I believe in respecting people freedom to choose how they want to live. Because I want to be respected and allowed to choose how I want to live.
katiecrna is offline  
post #128 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:23 PM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,588
Re: Gender

@Kivlor but @Mr. Nail likes to wrestle. He can't help it. You expecting him to just magically like baseball is ignorant and unrealistic. It's in fact the same as expecting you to start liking wrestling, it's not going to happen. Which is why we should all respect each other's individual taste even if we don't understand it or like it.
katiecrna is offline  
post #129 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:30 PM
Member
 
Kivlor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Rural Midwest
Posts: 3,120
Re: Gender

@Mr. Nail

I want to add some more thought to my response to you...

The sport analogy further breaks down, the more we think deeply on the subject. We aren't talking about someone liking a different sport (or even a different sex in the case of homosexuality) but a person who demands to be treated as if they're on the pro wrestling team, when they're really playing for a minor league baseball team. Further, that person goes on to demand that all of society must affirm that he is actually a wrestler, not a baseball player, and refer to him by his wrestling name, and praise him for his bravery at wrestling--when he is not a wrestler...

The sports analogy is really hard to make work, because it is so superficial.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
Kivlor is online now  
post #130 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:31 PM
Member
 
Kivlor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Rural Midwest
Posts: 3,120
Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
@Kivlor but @Mr. Nail likes to wrestle. He can't help it. You expecting him to just magically like baseball is ignorant and unrealistic. It's in fact the same as expecting you to start liking wrestling, it's not going to happen. Which is why we should all respect each other's individual taste even if we don't understand it or like it.
I think my post went way, way over your head.


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
Kivlor is online now  
post #131 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,660
Re: Gender

Some people will argue that being homosexual or trans is no more a choice than is being black. That argument says that for the same reason we accept people's race, we should accept these other characteristics.

While that may be true, I look at it differently. I am willing to accept and support *choices* that people make that don't significantly negatively affect others.

So when someone is gay, trans, Muslim, vegan etc, I am willing to support their actions because it is important to them, and costs me very little.


The cake baking issue that Kivlor brought up is really tricky. Should a Jewish baker be required to bake a cake with a swastika on it? Should a baker be allowed to refuse to bake a wedding cake for a mixed-race couple? Should a song-writer be required to write a song for a KKK event? Should people be required to *create* something that they find offensive? Where is the line between selling products, and creating products? I don't have an answer that I like to this one.
uhtred is offline  
post #132 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:34 PM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,588
Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
I think my post went way, way over your head.


No it didn't. You have a difficult time differentiating respecting people vs agreeing with people.
katiecrna is offline  
post #133 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:45 PM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,588
Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
@Mr. Nail



I want to add some more thought to my response to you...



The sport analogy further breaks down, the more we think deeply on the subject. We aren't talking about someone liking a different sport (or even a different sex in the case of homosexuality) but a person who demands to be treated as if they're on the pro wrestling team, when they're really playing for a minor league baseball team. Further, that person goes on to demand that all of society must affirm that he is actually a wrestler, not a baseball player, and refer to him by his wrestling name, and praise him for his bravery at wrestling--when he is not a wrestler...



The sports analogy is really hard to make work, because it is so superficial.


You have not answered how trans are trying to do this.

If I'm racist, I can have the belief that black people are sub human. But these black people are forcing us to accept them and act like they are equal to a white person. Even worse... they want special favors because of the color of their skin! What does a racist like myself do? Well I'm going to go on living my life with the same beliefs that I have always had, that they are sub human. And when I see one on the street, I will look the other way.

No one can demand us to change our beliefs. But we can demand equal rights which are what blacks, women, gays, and trans have done. Trans are not demanding you to think they are anything other than the sex they identify them-self with. And guess what... If you don't want to call a trans by their trans name, who cares. No one can demand you to do this. There is freedom of speech. Just like I can walk down the street and call every black person I see the N word.
katiecrna is offline  
post #134 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:50 PM
Member
 
katiecrna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,588
Re: Gender

http://www.shemazing.net/wp-content/...music_f440.jpg

Candis is a transgender. Do you think she should be forced to use the male locker room?
If you want to call her Bill that's up to you.
katiecrna is offline  
post #135 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 07:13 PM
Member
 
notmyrealname4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,492
Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
I don't care if there is a transgender in the locker room with me. There probably has been and I haven't known. If there is a women getting changed in the corner and she quickly drops her towel to put on her underwear and I accidentally look her way and I see she has a penis... who cares!!!!

That's different than a women walking around in the lockerroom naked with her penis flopping out. Even then I probably wouldn't care so much to be honest, but I understand why some people would be uncomfortable.


See, that's not possible for me. Here's how I see it.

Quote:
I don't care if there is a transgender in the locker room with me. There probably has been and I haven't known. If there is a man who thinks he is a woman getting changed in the corner and he quickly drops his towel to put on his underwear and I accidentally look his way and I see he has a penis... who cares!!!!

That's different than [B]a man who thinks he is a woman walking around[/B] in the lockerroom naked with his penis flopping out. Even then I probably wouldn't care so much to be honest, but I understand why some people would be uncomfortable.


I understand that we see it differently, katie. I truly believe that having a penis is a male attribute. I know there are physical anomalies. There was a TAM poster here a while back, his/her avatar was Sylvester the cat making something to eat in a kitchen??? This person was physically intersexed IIRC, and had male external genitalia; was gay and became pregnant through anal sex through an anal fistula which led to his/her internal female reproductive system.

^^^That is an incredibly rare phenomena; and if a person has both sets of genitalia---they are whatever they most identify with-----very difficult situation.


But if you only have a penis and testicles; you're a man. I don't say this because I'm a transphobic, hatemongering bigot. I'm 51, so I grew up when being gay was still seen as perverted and wrong in the culture at large, I'm sure that's affected my outlook.

I will endeavor to be as kind and decent to all people as I can be. But in my heart, I think this is all a giant mix-up, and I agree with Kivlor that those who look on and give their assent to all this (out of the best intentions of their heart), are inadvertently hurting those whom they are trying to help. I think the term is "condone"?? I think in the case of trans-[category], you have to be cruel to be kind. I don't think that 46-year-old fella in the embedded YouTube video upthread is having any favors done for him by by being adopted by a couple and treated as a six-year-old girl?? Come on everyone, it's obvious that something is amiss there.


Sometimes I hear younger people (under 30 or so), laugh and joke that anyone who disagrees with the newer, more radical social-sexual trends, will be dead in a few decades, so hang in there and soon the "problem" of dissent will solve itself.

And, maybe they are right, and that's what will happen. Though, I do note a distinct tinge of "hate" in that outlook.
notmyrealname4 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on Talk About Marriage, you must first register. Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Important! Your username will be visible to the public next to anything you post and could show up in search engines like Google. If you are concerned about anonymity, PLEASE choose a username that will not be recognizable to anyone you know.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Has Any Guy Here Taken The "Red Pill"? jack_medley Politics and Religion 2049 10-04-2016 07:27 PM
To have another choice/chance at life - which gender? imperfectworld The Social Spot 38 08-04-2016 07:25 PM
A quick poll on your Gender planewalker1 Coping with Infidelity 42 02-17-2016 09:10 AM
Apart from Gender , what are the differences between you and your partner? hbk4894 General Relationship Discussion 12 02-17-2016 12:43 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome