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post #91 of 101 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 02:41 PM
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Re: Ethics and Morality

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Part I: Is this just an ad populum? How do you account for sociopaths, psychopaths, or masochists? If I like getting into fights, should I assume you will like it too? Is it's popularity the sole reason it is valid?
No, I don't believe that its popularity means that it is valid. After all, belief in the necessity of government is nearly universal, but can be demolished by demonstrating its internal inconsistency. The Golden Rule has no such internal inconsistency in that it could be followed by everyone without conflict.

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Part II: I will relate to you a story from last Fall--election night actually lol. I was out having dinner at a little restaurant, with my girlfriend and my family. As we sat, enjoying some chips and tea, there was a screeching of tires, as a young man was struck by a car. I left the table, and ran into the middle of the street to offer assistance, and found the teenager laying, in obvious pain, and definitely suffering a concussion. A nurse who happened to be driving by also came to help. The man was so injured as to not know his own name, or where he was, or what had happened. He wanted to stand, but if he had a spinal injury, that could be fatal. Now, according to the NAP, I should have let him stand up, and just walk it off. It became quite apparent that was a bad idea, and instead, I chose to violate the NAP, and lay on the ground, putting the guy in a gentle embrace, and carefully restrained him. He cried and begged for me to let him stand--and fortunately he was very weak from the accident, or I would have had to let him go, for fear of causing direct injury. Paramedics came, and they carried him off. I later visited him in the hospital, and he thanked me for restraining him against his will.

I obeyed the Golden Rule, and forsook the NAP, did I not? Was it wrong to hold him against his will?
No, you did not forsake the NAP, as you were not acting aggressively, i.e., attempting to harm him or take something from him for your benefit. Instead, you did your best to preserve his bodily integrity, and succeeded. That is the farthest thing from a NAP violation I can imagine.


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post #92 of 101 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Ethics and Morality

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No, I don't believe that its popularity means that it is valid. After all, belief in the necessity of government is nearly universal, but can be demolished by demonstrating its internal inconsistency. The Golden Rule has no such internal inconsistency in that it could be followed by everyone without conflict.



No, you did not forsake the NAP, as you were not acting aggressively, i.e., attempting to harm him or take something from him for your benefit. Instead, you did your best to preserve his bodily integrity, and succeeded. That is the farthest thing from a NAP violation I can imagine.
I greatly appreciate your interpretation of the NAP Tech. So, how far do we take my actions? What is the limit, within the NAP? At what point does my doing something for someone's own good cross the line? (I know where I draw the line, but I'm curious about you, and your views on the NAP)

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #93 of 101 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 10:23 AM
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post #94 of 101 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 11:34 AM
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Re: Ethics and Morality

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I greatly appreciate your interpretation of the NAP Tech. So, how far do we take my actions? What is the limit, within the NAP? At what point does my doing something for someone's own good cross the line? (I know where I draw the line, but I'm curious about you, and your views on the NAP)
The question you need to ask yourself is "Why am I doing this?" If the answer is "To get something, whether physical or behavioral, by force", then you are violating the NAP. If the answer is "To aid someone in an emergency in which they cannot explicitly consent" (a much rarer but obviously not impossible situation), then you aren't.

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post #95 of 101 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 01:44 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Ethics and Morality

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The question you need to ask yourself is "Why am I doing this?" If the answer is "To get something, whether physical or behavioral, by force", then you are violating the NAP. If the answer is "To aid someone in an emergency in which they cannot explicitly consent" (a much rarer but obviously not impossible situation), then you aren't.
So, let's take this to my opinion on transgenderism. I think these people are provably not in their right mind, and am opposed to assisting (or permitting) them to mutilate of their bodies, because they aren't thinking right. Is it acceptable to restrain them, and offer counseling until they are in their right heads? If so, how much farther can we stretch this?

To be clear, I'm not talking about "shock therapy" or "pray away the gay" but serious medical help for people who are obviously afflicted with depression and a known, diagnosed psychosis called body dysmorphic disorder, wherein the sufferer is under the delusion that they need to cut off body parts or otherwise mutilate themselves to make themselves whole (note this disorder is not limited to genitalia). These people almost always regret their decisions in the long run, and the damage is permanent.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #96 of 101 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 08:44 PM
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Re: Ethics and Morality

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So, let's take this to my opinion on transgenderism. I think these people are provably not in their right mind, and am opposed to assisting (or permitting) them to mutilate of their bodies, because they aren't thinking right. Is it acceptable to restrain them, and offer counseling until they are in their right heads? If so, how much farther can we stretch this?

To be clear, I'm not talking about "shock therapy" or "pray away the gay" but serious medical help for people who are obviously afflicted with depression and a known, diagnosed psychosis called body dysmorphic disorder, wherein the sufferer is under the delusion that they need to cut off body parts or otherwise mutilate themselves to make themselves whole (note this disorder is not limited to genitalia). These people almost always regret their decisions in the long run, and the damage is permanent.
Adults have the right to harm themselves if they want to do so, after consideration. That is why suicide should not be illegal.

Your previous example was of someone who was temporarily unable to make decisions due to shock, but that doesn't apply to someone who thinks it over and says "Yes, I want to be xxx", even if that makes no sense to others.

I certainly wouldn't help them harm themselves, but if they want to do it and are willing to pay the freight involved, then I would try to talk them out of it, including showing that the results are terrible and permanent. But I wouldn't stop them by force.

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post #97 of 101 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 02:14 PM
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Re: Ethics and Morality

They go through a whole pile of therapy long before they decide to change genders. It doesn't just happen overnight.

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post #98 of 101 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 10:02 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Ethics and Morality

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Adults have the right to harm themselves if they want to do so, after consideration. That is why suicide should not be illegal.

Your previous example was of someone who was temporarily unable to make decisions due to shock, but that doesn't apply to someone who thinks it over and says "Yes, I want to be xxx", even if that makes no sense to others.

I certainly wouldn't help them harm themselves, but if they want to do it and are willing to pay the freight involved, then I would try to talk them out of it, including showing that the results are terrible and permanent. But I wouldn't stop them by force.
Okay, so here's where the rubber meets the road, so to speak.

Adults should be able to hurt themselves... so suicide should be allowed... so why was it okay for me to restrain that man in the first place? He's 19, and an adult. He wants to get up, and doesn't care it will harm him, and thereby hurt his family. Later he may (or may not) come to his senses, and change his mind--there's no way for me to know. There is very little philosophical difference (if any) between this, and a person suffering from a treatable mental illness, who is intent on mutilating themselves (and as I said, this disorder isn't limited to genitalia, and in fact it commonly involves other body parts) or who is intent on suicide. All 3 aren't in their right mind. All 3 will probably thank me later, when they are restored to sanity. All 3 are intent on doing harm to themselves, and do not want my interference at the moment.

Tangentially... since you mention adults... how about children who want to do this? What if their parents support it? What if their parents are the ones pushing it?

Again, I'm not really trying to get into law on this, but what is morally / ethically permissible / right / wrong. So, we may say "suicide is wrong" and simultaneously say "suicide is not / should not be illegal".

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #99 of 101 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 10:18 AM
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Re: Ethics and Morality

Hahaha suicide illegal? You think the dead give a sh-t?!
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post #100 of 101 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Ethics and Morality

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They go through a whole pile of therapy long before they decide to change genders. It doesn't just happen overnight.
A lot of the therapists believe in it. And are not trying to cure them. Some are even trying to help them with the change.


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #101 of 101 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 11:10 AM
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Re: Ethics and Morality

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Okay, so here's where the rubber meets the road, so to speak.

Adults should be able to hurt themselves... so suicide should be allowed... so why was it okay for me to restrain that man in the first place? He's 19, and an adult. He wants to get up, and doesn't care it will harm him, and thereby hurt his family. Later he may (or may not) come to his senses, and change his mind--there's no way for me to know. There is very little philosophical difference (if any) between this, and a person suffering from a treatable mental illness, who is intent on mutilating themselves (and as I said, this disorder isn't limited to genitalia, and in fact it commonly involves other body parts) or who is intent on suicide.

All 3 aren't in their right mind. All 3 will probably thank me later, when they are restored to sanity. All 3 are intent on doing harm to themselves, and do not want my interference at the moment.
It is a matter of judgment. I believe the a priori probability that the 19 year old would thank me later would be so high that I would be willing to defend myself against a charge of NAP violation, because his mental infirmity had an obvious cause that would very likely be of short duration. In the other types, I don't believe that the a priori probability would be high enough to risk a NAP violation, because the mental infirmity is much more subjective and long-lasting.

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Tangentially... since you mention adults... how about children who want to do this? What if their parents support it? What if their parents are the ones pushing it?

Again, I'm not really trying to get into law on this, but what is morally / ethically permissible / right / wrong. So, we may say "suicide is wrong" and simultaneously say "suicide is not / should not be illegal".
Yes, we may say both of those things. "Wrong" != "should be illegal".

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