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post #286 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 07:36 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

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Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
Really dude?



Am I capable of holding a coherent position? Like I said, I don't care at all. But that is an undermining ad hominem attack. And what's really sad is that you really only care about your perspective. As long as Kivlor is apouting what you believe, he can do no wrong.
Harsh and assertive, but not an ad hominin attack. He was exposing your lack of consistency in regards to moral relativism. And what evidence do you have for your generalisation about me?

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post #287 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 07:42 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

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Harsh and assertive, but not an ad hominin attack. He was exposing your lack of consistency in regards to moral relativism. And what evidence do you have for your generalisation about me?
It is disengenous if you to state that him asking me that wasn't an ad hominem attack. That's the gosh darn definition of it. I was really hoping you would say, "well, yeah, he has definitely gone over the line in a few instances, but I still agree with his point." But you didn't, and I'm not surprised.

I was really just tit for tatting you. I don't know you, and I am disappointed with your response, regardless of your political point.
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post #288 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 07:52 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

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The women's march, for all the good intentions on the part of many, violated the core principle of human rights: "The worst first."
Sadly, many of the organizers and participants of the march chose to stand by and ignore women being tortured and exterminated by Islamic terrorists, and in other parts of the world, not being able to receive an education or even leave the house without the permission of a male.

If only these women felt as motivated to protest about the enslavement, rape and torture of Yazidi women and children, as about the cost of tampons.
Acting like self-serving, delusional fanatics, whose sheer hatred of an elected president blinds their eyes to the real problems of the world, does not help anyone. There have been just as many people who might have hated other presidents.

Let us with our actions remind women in the Middle East that we take their plight to heart."

Uzay Bulut, a journalist born and raised a Muslim in Turkey, is currently based in Washington D.C.




Western feminists have abandoned their own.
You do realize, of course, that one reason for immigration to the US is for people to escape their war-torn countries and endless persecution.

And that Western feminists have long known about the plight of Yezidi women, and other groups, and have been working tirelessly in efforts to end oppression both in their home countries as well as in the US. That they have risked their lives to make education possible, to rescue people from intolerable situations, to provide much needed healthcare.

And that one reason for this march was about standing in solidarity over this type of fight against oppression, with full recognition that it is a global problem.

And that the Yezidi people are begging for asylum in a safer place.

Do you think Trump will bring them to America?
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post #289 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 07:57 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

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It is disengenous if you to state that him asking me that wasn't an ad hominem attack. That's the gosh darn definition of it. I was really hoping you would say, "well, yeah, he has definitely gone over the line in a few instances, but I still agree with his point." But you didn't, and I'm not surprised.

I was really just tit for tatting you. I don't know you, and I am disappointed with your response, regardless of your political point.

Not disingenuous at all, but I think I now see where our difference of opinion stems from. You see his very direct question as sarcasm, and as an inference that you are somewhat dim-witted. I didn't read it that way at all. I saw it as a direct question to call you out on your lack of consistency (as seen by Kivlor) in regards to moral relativism and moral objectivity. It's often difficult to interpret the tone of written words without body language, sound, etc. So I will agree to disagree with you.

Now, where is your evidence for your disparaging generalisation in regards to me?
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post #290 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 08:01 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

Advice to the posters here:

Just because it is your opinion and you think your right, it doesn't make what you say true.

Of course, that doesn't apply to me. :-)
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post #291 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 08:11 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

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Originally Posted by wild jade View Post
LOL... Yes, that's why the words imbecile, idiot and hypocrite were in virtually every one of Kivlor's posts. Sometimes all three words.

And what Kivlor was arguing was not at all accurate. He was painting a portrait of Muslim women and feminists fighting for the abuse of women. His interpretation couldn't be more wrong. And it was because he couldn't see that, like with Christians, there are very different groups with different belief sets that are all Muslim.
Your first paragraph is demonstrably untrue. Kivlor called you a hypocrite on one occasion in this thread, and then explained why he held that belief, by explaining his line of reason. He did not call any of the people on this thread an imbecile or an idiot.

As for your second point, your argument is weak because you have not countered any of Kivlor's specific examples in any of your previous posts. Even when you provided a link to the PEW study, you didn't read the details and were successfully countered on that point too.
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post #292 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 08:41 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

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You do realize, of course, that one reason for immigration to the US is for people to escape their war-torn countries and endless persecution.

And that Western feminists have long known about the plight of Yezidi women, and other groups, and have been working tirelessly in efforts to end oppression both in their home countries as well as in the US. That they have risked their lives to make education possible, to rescue people from intolerable situations, to provide much needed healthcare.

And that one reason for this march was about standing in solidarity over this type of fight against oppression, with full recognition that it is a global problem.

And that the Yezidi people are begging for asylum in a safer place.

Do you think Trump will bring them to America?
And yet the Yezidi Human Rights Group doesn't agree with you. I would suggest that if the women's march was really about the things that you assert in your post, then just about every sane person on the planet would have been in favour of this march - but that didn't happen. Can you point me to a video of a notable speaker at this march who spoke out about the barbaric atrocities inflicted upon women on a daily basis in the Middle East and the third world generally? Believe it or not, I really hope that you can do this, because I haven't seen or read about it. I did hear about Madonna recklessly talking about bombing people and ****** Judd being crude, but no speeches about the barbarity of forced niqquabs, child marriage, women's legal testimony being worth less than a man's, stoning of rape victims, honour killings, etc.

I am also confused about why you started your response to me with a statement about immigration, and then finished with a question about immigration, when my post about the Yezidi group had nothing to do with immigration. But okay, I am sure that a lot of Yezidi women would want asylum in the US. Will Trump allow them in? I don't know - quite ignorant on that point as I don't live in the US. Yezidi women will probably have a better chance than most Muslim women, which, on balance, I think is fair given the hostility toward minority religious groups generally in the Middle East. There are more places for Muslims to find sanctuary in the Middle East than there are for Yezidis. The same is true for Christians in the Middle East - the reduction in their numbers in the last 100 years due to persecution is sickening. However, the group to which I linked to want their own home back.
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post #293 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 08:52 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

OR the Dr. Jekyll to Kivlors Mr. Hyde?
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post #294 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 09:29 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

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How about reproductive responsibility? How about taking responsibility for our actions?How about a babies freedom to be born and have their life?
I think that that argument works better when we also support the idea of affordable health care including access to birth control. As a young lady, the only place that I could go where I could afford birth control was planned parenthood. Despite the fact that national tax funding for abortions is already illegal, funding for providers who offer low income people access to such health care is always at risk of being on the chopping block. Why should *I* have to pay for their "lack of responsibility"?? Because fewer unwanted, unsupported, un-cared for children in the world is good for everyone. The idea that a fetus born is good but a fetus ignored after that demonstrates the disingenuous nature of this outrage.

As a young woman myself, I was engaged to a man who was supposedly incapable of conceiving. Imagine my surprise when he was 1. gone upon hearing of my pregnancy and 2. perfectly capable of conceiving (and apparently knew it). How many people doubt their finance? Anyone else on this board ever been stupid? I challenge someone to answer that in the negative.

The personal responsibility argument really bothers me. The human condition is predicated on mistakes. A certain member of this board who is posting voraciously on this thread has also raged about personal responsibility. It is always easy top point and judge someone else' failing of responsibility while seeking sympathy for your own cheating or other reprehensible behavior. For my part, taking up with the charming young man and not seeing his lack of character was a mistake, but not a defining one. Aborting the fetus was not a mistake, especially compared to my inability to care for it or obtain even decent prenatal care for it.

People tend to holler personal responsibility from a position of privilege. But for the grace of the fates or whatever nonsense a person might believe in, goes you. When life hands you ****, or god forbid you screw up, my hope is that you are presented with empathy rather than a giant F-YOU you irresponsible slob!

The life question is a non-starter. There is no way to determine when human life begins. I don't choose to cast my moral distaste at the so-called christians who are cheerful to get a divorce (or several divorces) while casting their moral judgement on others whose morality has another basis. Again, the entire argument is disingenuous since these same people gleeful murder felons. If human life were all that was required to be sacred, how is a bundle of cells more human than grown person?

Finally, the illegality of abortion is an ineffective means of stopping it. Instead if aborting a fetus, one simply makes it easier to kill the mother as well. History has a way of being ignored.
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post #295 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 09:32 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

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Originally Posted by blueinbr View Post
Advice to the posters here:

Just because it is your opinion and you think your right, it doesn't make what you say true.

Of course, that doesn't apply to me. :-)
Of course it doesn't. You haven't said much.

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post #296 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
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Re: "Free Melania"

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Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
I think that that argument works better when we also support the idea of affordable health care including access to birth control. As a young lady, the only place that I could go where I could afford birth control was planned parenthood. Despite the fact that national tax funding for abortions is already illegal, funding for providers who offer low income people access to such health care is always at risk of being on the chopping block. Why should *I* have to pay for their "lack of responsibility"?? Because fewer unwanted, unsupported, un-cared for children in the world is good for everyone. The idea that a fetus born is good but a fetus ignored after that demonstrates the disingenuous nature of this outrage.

As a young woman myself, I was engaged to a man who was supposedly incapable of conceiving. Imagine my surprise when he was 1. gone upon hearing of my pregnancy and 2. perfectly capable of conceiving (and apparently knew it). How many people doubt their finance? Anyone else on this board ever been stupid? I challenge someone to answer that in the negative.

The personal responsibility argument really bothers me. The human condition is predicated on mistakes. A certain member of this board who is posting voraciously on this thread has also raged about personal responsibility. It is always easy top point and judge someone else' failing of responsibility while seeking sympathy for your own cheating or other reprehensible behavior. For my part, taking up with the charming young man and not seeing his lack of character was a mistake, but not a defining one. Aborting the fetus was not a mistake, especially compared to my inability to care for it or obtain even decent prenatal care for it.

People tend to holler personal responsibility from a position of privilege. But for the grace of the fates or whatever nonsense a person might believe in, goes you. When life hands you ****, or god forbid you screw up, my hope is that you are presented with empathy rather than a giant F-YOU you irresponsible slob!

The life question is a non-starter. There is no way to determine when human life begins. I don't choose to cast my moral distaste at the so-called christians who are cheerful to get a divorce (or several divorces) while casting their moral judgement on others whose morality has another basis. Again, the entire argument is disingenuous since these same people gleeful murder felons. If human life were all that was required to be sacred, how is a bundle of cells more human than grown person?

Finally, the illegality of abortion is an ineffective means of stopping it. Instead if aborting a fetus, one simply makes it easier to kill the mother as well. History has a way of being ignored.
I agree with most of this. I do think life begins at conception, though. Do you have evidence it does not?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #297 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 09:55 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

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I agree with most of this. I do think life begins at conception, though. Do you have evidence it does not?
You believe that life begins at conception in the absence of evidence either way. Based on that, it would make sense for you to never choose to have an abortion. And let's bear in mind that no one considers "life" to be particularly valuable, just human life. Whatever that is. The vast majority of people don't hold broccoli sacred nor the meat we eat nor the unwanted dogs and cats we kill in shelters. So what makes "human life" so sacred? I have no idea since I don't believe in the sacred. I DO believe in the right for individuals to make their own moral choices. I think the person best available to make choices for themselves and for their unborn fetus is the person carrying the unborn fetus. I would certainly prefer education, birth control access (particularly research into effective male birth control to allow them greater control of their destinies) and the removal of stigma, particularly religious stigma, around sex, biology and reproduction to effectively eliminate the need or desire for abortion. That is a win-win for everyone. But we are so no where near that.
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post #298 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 09:59 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

In addition to BC, let us not forget biology education. There are still people in the world who do not educate their children about sexuality lest they... become informed. I was speaking to a young lady the other day who thought she could get pregnant from oral. Good grief. How can that young lady be "responsible" for anything with that degree of misinformation?
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post #299 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
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Re: "Free Melania"

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You believe that life begins at conception in the absence of evidence either way. Based on that, it would make sense for you to never choose to have an abortion. And let's bear in mind that no one considers "life" to be particularly valuable, just human life. Whatever that is. The vast majority of people don't hold broccoli sacred nor the meat we eat nor the unwanted dogs and cats we kill in shelters. So what makes "human life" so sacred? I have no idea since I don't believe in the sacred. I DO believe in the right for individuals to make their own moral choices. I think the person best available to make choices for themselves and for their unborn fetus is the person carrying the unborn fetus. I would certainly prefer education, birth control access (particularly research into effective male birth control to allow them greater control of their destinies) and the removal of stigma, particularly religious stigma, around sex, biology and reproduction to effectively eliminate the need or desire for abortion. That is a win-win for everyone. But we are so no where near that.
No, I would have an abortion if I thought I needed one. Bringing human life into the world is voluntary, at least to me.

I think life begins at conception because if nothing is done to stop it after conception, it will grow and emerge as a baby.

If there is evidence against that, though, I am certainly willing to look at it.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #300 of 300 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 10:03 AM
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Re: "Free Melania"

This thread is closed because clearly, so many people are unable to discuss politics in a civil manner anymore.
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