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post #61 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 12:24 PM
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Re: Common Core

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So they were basically held hostage to the money?
"Hostage" is such an emotionally charged pejorative word

It is my understanding the states and professional educators developed the national common core standards but DEVELOPING and IMPLEMENTING such standards (i.e. ~ creating local curriculums and materials) needed money the states didn't have so the FEDS stepped up to the plate.

Federal funding wasn't being cut off to schools, rather schools were given the opportunity to tap into federal grant funds to assist with the transition to a set of standards that seem to be somewhere between marginally to exceptionally better than previous standards for all students. I'm guessing that school systems and cities that were/are convinced that had a better way and better standards they could have just forewent the money and maintained their "awesome" curriculums if they wanted. Calling them "hostages" doesn't seem very accurate.

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From politifact.com: To get grants from Race to the Top -- Obama’s signature education program -- or waivers from the mandates of No Child Left Behind -- an education reform law adopted under President George W. Bush -- states have to prove they have standards to prepare students for college and work. They don’t have to adopt the Common Core Standards, but that works as one way to qualify for grants or waivers.

...

Federal officials did not initiate the state standards for public schools or force them on the states. But they have given states financial incentives to adopt the standards.



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post #62 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 12:31 PM
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Re: Common Core

IMO, CC does nothing for the top half of the student population, except, at worst hold them back.

And teaching math in a new way that their parent's can't understand really is bloody confusing. I have a MS in engineering and had issues with how some 7-9th grade math was presented (I could not help my son figure out his homework). Given my degree, I could lecture in math at a Community College. The past two sentences really condemn CC math, imo. Teaching math where one can easily get a precise answer, but forcing students to have to deal with in-precision makes no sense, at all.

The lack of reading the 'great books' is another issue.

CC probably really doesn't help those at the bottom, either. Though I don't have data to support this....

CC seems to me to be more about control than it is about education.
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post #63 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Common Core

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Originally Posted by Quality View Post
"Hostage" is such an emotionally charged pejorative word

It is my understanding the states and professional educators developed the national common core standards but DEVELOPING and IMPLEMENTING such standards (i.e. ~ creating local curriculums and materials) needed money the states didn't have so the FEDS stepped up to the plate.

Federal funding wasn't being cut off to schools, rather schools were given the opportunity to tap into federal grant funds to assist with the transition to a set of standards that seem to be somewhere between marginally to exceptionally better than previous standards for all students. I'm guessing that school systems and cities that were/are convinced that had a better way and better standards they could have just forewent the money and maintained their "awesome" curriculums if they wanted. Calling them "hostages" doesn't seem very accurate.
You said the states were cash-strapped during the financial crisis. With money only largely available at the federal level, that sounds like being held hostage.

I mean, what was the alternative? Close the schools? Isn't that what happens when there is no money?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #64 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 12:38 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Common Core

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IMO, CC does nothing for the top half of the student population, except, at worst hold them back.

And teaching math in a new way that their parent's can't understand really is bloody confusing. I have a MS in engineering and had issues with how some 7-9th grade math was presented (I could not help my son figure out his homework). Given my degree, I could lecture in math at a Community College. The past two sentences really condemn CC math, imo. Teaching math where one can easily get a precise answer, but forcing students to have to deal with in-precision makes no sense, at all.

The lack of reading the 'great books' is another issue.

CC probably really doesn't help those at the bottom, either. Though I don't have data to support this....

CC seems to me to be more about control than it is about education.
Wow, another engineer/math professional saying he does not like CC.

And what was the reason for this big curriculum change again? Didn't someone say to make more engineers/math professionals?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #65 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Common Core

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Yes, that is an option I believe for everyone. The principal/teachers/administrators actually push the parents very hard to opt out, and it seems like where I live there is a massive push.
Why is that?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #66 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 12:45 PM
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Re: Common Core

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Originally Posted by Quality View Post
"Hostage" is such an emotionally charged pejorative word

It is my understanding the states and professional educators developed the national common core standards but DEVELOPING and IMPLEMENTING such standards (i.e. ~ creating local curriculums and materials) needed money the states didn't have so the FEDS stepped up to the plate.

Federal funding wasn't being cut off to schools, rather schools were given the opportunity to tap into federal grant funds to assist with the transition to a set of standards that seem to be somewhere between marginally to exceptionally better than previous standards for all students. I'm guessing that school systems and cities that were/are convinced that had a better way and better standards they could have just forewent the money and maintained their "awesome" curriculums if they wanted. Calling them "hostages" doesn't seem very accurate.
I think that the ability to opt out of Common Core and keep the existing better one must be related to how the school districts are structured and funded. For that reason, the ease of opting out may be highly variable across the country. In my state, if you want to keep getting state funding, you do as you're told by the state department of education. So, our local school district could have decided not to implement Common Core, but would have lost state funding and state accreditation. To be honest, our schools simply couldn't afford to lose state and federal funding in that way. We rely on those funds to feed, as well as provide social programs and specialized therapies as well as educate, any number of desperately poor children who live in our community. Besides, if you don't keep state accreditation, then the state DOE can come in and take over the school district and run it directly - implementing Common Core while simultaneously eliminating all vestiges of local control and input.

You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view. - Obi Wan Kenobi
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post #67 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 12:50 PM
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Re: Common Core

It shows that public schools do work on occasion, offering far more courses than privates or homeschool...
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post #68 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 12:52 PM
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Re: Common Core

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I think that the ability to opt out of Common Core and keep the existing better one must be related to how the school districts are structured and funded. For that reason, the ease of opting out may be highly variable across the country. In my state, if you want to keep getting state funding, you do as you're told by the state department of education. So, our local school district could have decided not to implement Common Core, but would have lost state funding and state accreditation. To be honest, our schools simply couldn't afford to lose state and federal funding in that way. We rely on those funds to feed, as well as provide social programs and specialized therapies as well as educate, any number of desperately poor children who live in our community. Besides, if you don't keep state accreditation, then the state DOE can come in and take over the school district and run it directly - implementing Common Core while simultaneously eliminating all vestiges of local control and input.
aka - CC is nothing more than a power/control grab by the feds. This is exactly the case in my school district. We had no choice but comply, because the funds all come in from the state and/or feds and if we don't play ball, we get no $. In Michigan, due to how we are funded, we could not even raise our own taxes for operating $, that was taken away about 25 years ago.
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post #69 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Common Core

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It shows that public schools do work on occasion, offering far more courses than privates or homeschool...
I am really glad you are happy with your girls' education, john. I was just pointing out that the question was about math curricula.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #70 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 01:03 PM
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Re: Common Core

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Why do you think the letter is a fake? Another poster just said her friend's husband is a math prof at Cornell, and he has trouble with his son's CC math.
Because my manicurist's son's girlfriend went to Appalachian State University and she told me.

Really it just reads to me as being contrived for political purposes, facebook humor or profiteering {most of this election cycles fake facebook "news" were creatively created simply for traffic and profit and Trump supporters seeking outside validation proved overly eager to share just about any such material}. It should also be noted that that question, if legitimate, would have been created and published by an independent for-profit publisher seeking to write the best and most profitable materials to achieve common core standards as possible. The "experts" and educators that created the CC standards didn't write that question and went on record saying it is/was/would have been {if true} a poorly designed question. The independent profit driven publisher should/could take that feedback and fix it so as to sell more and better materials in the future.

Personally, I prefer the German education model with trade schools and vocational training from a much younger age based upon testing, accomplishments/achievement as well as individual choice. Seems to serve the best, brightest and most driven without destroying and devaluing the not so bright very well. However, it is illegal to homeschool there, so it's not perfect either.


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post #71 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 01:23 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Common Core

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Because my manicurist's son's girlfriend went to Appalachian State University and she told me.

Really it just reads to me as being contrived for political purposes, facebook humor or profiteering {most of this election cycles fake facebook "news" were creatively created simply for traffic and profit and Trump supporters seeking outside validation proved overly eager to share just about any such material}. It should also be noted that that question, if legitimate, would have been created and published by an independent for-profit publisher seeking to write the best and most profitable materials to achieve common core standards as possible. The "experts" and educators that created the CC standards didn't write that question and went on record saying it is/was/would have been {if true} a poorly designed question. The independent profit driven publisher should/could take that feedback and fix it so as to sell more and better materials in the future.

Personally, I prefer the German education model with trade schools and vocational training from a much younger age based upon testing, accomplishments/achievement as well as individual choice. Seems to serve the best, brightest and most driven without destroying and devaluing the not so bright very well. However, it is illegal to homeschool there, so it's not perfect either.
Dave right here said the same thing, as did another poster about her friend's husband, who is a math prof at Cornell.

I don't think it is a stretch that it is genuine.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #72 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 01:45 PM
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Re: Common Core

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The mathematics that Common Core curriculum uses is called Singapore math. It actually works very well, as long as your brain works that way and you're not trying to implement it with kids who have started learning math the traditional way. I think it's likely fantastic for children who aren't easily frustrated with trying to integrate the method on top of traditional Western teaching methods. So long as their parents do not try to help them with their homework. I'm one of those parents. In my mind, that there are 11 steps in solving a simple multiplication problem, just isn't workable. There's a simpler way. But Singapore math uses no memorization of math facts - like the multiplication tables. The children aren't asked to memorize anything, or taught the simpler way. In fact, the simpler way will be marked incorrect, despite resulting in the correct answer, because they aren't concerned with the correct answer, but with the method of getting it. The idea is to promote deeper understanding of how math works and why it does - so as to build critical thinking skills that will be useful in later lessons. Our school system began using it when my child was in 6th grade. He found it maddening. He had, still has, trouble wrapping his brain around why anyone would want to do anything in such a convoluted manner to show why the answer is X, when the answer so very obviously is X. Kids who math in their heads, and/or who are frustrated by being forced to use 15 steps to find an answer they've seen immediately, are the ones who don't deal well with Singapore Math.
exactly. This is maddening. Why would anyone a) not memorize simple math, b) take way more effort to do something simply and c) get down graded for getting the right answer, using well established math, but not to the 'Singapore' method. Sometimes change is good, here it appears to be utterly ridiculous.
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post #73 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 01:50 PM
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Re: Common Core

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Why is that?
Maybe easier, here is some feedback elsewhere from parents (and some teachers) against common core, so you can hear direct from them what the issue/concern is. Like I said, where I live the opt out rate is big (70%+ for many of the school districts), and teachers/administrators are being very vocal against the test. My oldest son took the test when he was in 3rd grade. My only issue was the test results were not received until many months later.


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I opted my kids out every time! When NYS starts tracking even their BMI, it's gone too far. Not about the.kids anymore. It's too much stress and intrusion. IMO
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Opt Out! Common Core and testing is not in the best interest of any child....run away from it as fast as you can!
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Opt out. The tests are not in the best interest of your children, it's money making industry that is trying to discredit teachers.
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Opt out, tests unfairly judge teachers, they are ridiculously long and deplete children (and teachers) of valuable classroom time, scores are useless and not representative of actual achievement of curriculum, they data mine the children... ugh.. awful and unnecessary!! Just my opinion, as short as I could make it
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Ditto! Couldn't have said it better myself! I'm confident that my school district can evaluate my child and place them in the appropriate class each year. I'm also pretty vocal when it comes to teachers, positive and negative. I've had very few in the way of negative and sooooo many positive. So, as far as teacher eval, parents are helpful when they speak up positives and concerns.
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Absolutely no reason to subject your child to the unnecessary torture of these tests...the tests on average are 2 grade levels above your childs grade, they are long, there is NO benefit to your child, their teacher or the school. Most teachers are against them. The opt out percentage has increased tremendously year after year...last year 1 child in a third grade class took the test...that's just sad. The year before 2 children in a 4th grade class took the test. Just unnecessary...oh, and I do not know of any teachers that allow their kids to take these tests...
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Do what works for your family. Most say it's 'big business' that assesses the teachers, more so than the students. Others say it can be leveraged against your child if you're looking to place them in honor classes. If your child(ren) opt out, there is no basis other than school grades to assess where they should be placed.
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According to the new state regs. for this year, testing really isn't being used in many districts to assess the teachers until the regents exams, which are not optional. Why our children are sitting for approximately 5 hours to take assessments that are not used to guide instruction is appalling to me personally. The ELA assessments are early this year: March and then math is in May. This is the first year they are splitting them up with so much time between, but the tests themselves will certainly still be far from age appropriate We've got a long way to go in my opinion, so my child will still not take these tests. Sure we all have to take tests in life and do things we may be uncomfortable with but this testing is just not one of those times.
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To piggy back with what you're saying: the other tests we take in life are returned to us in a timely fashion, and also let us know what we need improvement on and where we excel. These state tests do not. Answers are not given to parents/schools until 6 months after they have taken them. The kids have already moved on to the next grade. There is no way to see where your child needs help or where they do well. And even if you could see where your child needed help, nothing you can do about it because they are now in 4th grade, and didn't grasp a 3rd grade math problem. These tests serve no purpose for our children. None.
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I work in the school, I see the children who are taking these tests stress...I have actually seen children crying during these tests...not 1 child...several... I understand peoples points of views, but when a 3rd grader is given a 5th grade reading passage, then asked questions that an adult would have problems answering, I do not see how in any way, shape, or form this benefits my child. You say your child will have to sit through Regents, Civil service tests, SAT'S...but not at 8 years old. To have them sit perfectly still and completely silent for 3 hours at a pop is ridiculous. And for what? Class time is spent "preparing" the children for these tests. Why? Why aren't they being taught the approprriate material for their grade? They are taught how to figure out the correct answer...shouldn't the know the correct answer? No, because they weren't taught it yet! And because the questions and answers are worded so the children are confused! I have seen children walk out and think they are stupid! Is that what you want for your child? I'm sorry, but why is it you can opt out of THESE tests, but not others? That right there should tell you something!
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I am a 5th grade teacher in the *** School District. I can tell you , without hesitation, to opt out. The tests are abusive to disabled learners, as those with testing accommodations of double time, have to sit through 18 hours of testing, looking at reading passages and convoluting math word problems, that are so beyond the developmental levels of my 5th grade students. If you are possibly thinking, "don't the tests give teachers information to help my child?" They do not. Not one iota. When I get your child's scores, the next school year has already begun. And when I want to see what my group did poorly on, I am not allowed to see the test in its entirety, nor the answers the students chose. These tests are a political tool, put in place by politicians and their moneyed interests, to drive a narrative that the public schools are failing. With that, your tax dollars will get funneled into for-profit charter schools, which despite their claims, do not improve outcomes. My son and daughter will NEVER take these tests.
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post #74 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 01:59 PM
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Re: Common Core

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I have heard teachers say that teaching is not fun anymore. Maybe we should drop all these standards and just let teachers loose in their classrooms. Let the kids loose, too, to grow at their own pace and develop their own interests.
You need some standards, imo. However, we are not currently even meeting basic stuff for the bottom students. Ability to read and write and balance a check book needs to be there for everyone.

For your aspiring xxx college student, you probably have different standards. Without some method to measure, who gets into college, etc. ?

However, teaching to the standardized X grade test seems foolish.
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post #75 of 198 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Common Core

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Originally Posted by EllisRedding View Post
Maybe easier, here is some feedback elsewhere from parents (and some teachers) against common core, so you can hear direct from them what the issue/concern is. Like I said, where I live the opt out rate is big (70%+ for many of the school districts), and teachers/administrators are being very vocal against the test. My oldest son took the test when he was in 3rd grade. My only issue was the test results were not received until many months later.
Wow, some angry folks!

So it is just the test you can opt out of? I thought it was the whole instruction. Sounds like that is not the case, though.

If parents and students could choose CC (Singapore) math or traditional math instruction for their children, I wonder what they would choose.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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