If ACA is repealed - Page 5 - Talk About Marriage
Politics and Religion This is the place to discuss politics, morality, religion, and anything controversial.

User Tag List

 300Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #61 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
jld
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 19,578
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
That's the only type of health insurance that actually makes sense. Imagine how much car insurance would cost if it covered gas!
Sometimes yearly screenings can save money in the long run.


One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
jld is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 09:34 AM
Member
 
SimplyAmorous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 13,857
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueinbr View Post
Two things

1) The French pay for their healthcare through other means - high taxation for example. If you paid only $8 then you were a foreigner who did not pay fair share for the services you received and therefore were subsidized by the French taxpayer.

2) What blood work costs $200? Mrs. Blue has this done all the time and the "true" charge is never $200. Are you referring to the retail cost or the actual network insurance paid charge. For example, provider bills for $35. Insurance pays $3.50 and the provider accepts that as payment in full.
I was looking for our most recent blood work.. I think I threw it away.. but I found my husband's from 2013....would be over $1,000 if he had this done today.. everything goes UP outside of minimum wage and electronics.... here is one of the bills.. all we had to pay was $129 thankfully... When I spoke of the cost.. I was referring to someone who doesn't have health insurance , they would be stuck paying the $984.00 ....

SimplyAmorous is offline  
post #63 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 09:42 AM
Forum Supporter
 
blueinbr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,310
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by jld View Post
We paid the full foreigner price--$8. For French taxpayers it would have been even less. Everyone benefits from a more organized system.
There is a different between cost and price. If the French want to charge you a price of $8, that is their decision However, if the true "cost", which means labor, equipment, overhead, supplies, etc adds to more than $8, then you were subsidized. Certainly it cost more than $1 to do that blood test.
blueinbr is offline  
 
post #64 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 09:46 AM
Member
 
SimplyAmorous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 13,857
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
That's the only type of health insurance that actually makes sense. Imagine how much car insurance would cost if it covered gas!
And here is the thing about car insurance.. many of us have impeccable records.. we don't Drink...never caused an accident.... but we have to SHARE the cost to cover all these irresponsible people who drink & drive, don't we...

Shouldn't health coverage be a similar model...

People need the coverage.. or it can destroy and completely upset everything we've worked for.. we don't allow it on the roads.. but we allow it in our homes, is our vehicles more important than our lives ... affordable health care should be a value in this country..
SimplyAmorous is offline  
post #65 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 09:49 AM
Moderator
 
lifeistooshort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,422
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
I would expect an actuary to be more realistic about how insurance works. Should people who are actuarially likely to use more services not have to pay more for insurance?
Don't flatter yourself by insulting me, with your whole actuarial clerk experience. Since I work in pricing I'm pretty sure I know how insurance works.

I'm not sure that you do.

Nowhere in my post did I say people shouldn't pay....I said that it was a falsehood to think that before ACA you weren't subsidizing the uninsurable.

People who use more do pay more where legally allowed, but the fact is they aren't going to be able to pay what their risk load really requires. Insurance is a shared risk pool for this reason.....most people who need more than very basic care wouldn't be able to afford it.

The same thing happens in P&C.....do you think people who live on the coast actually pay what their risk load dictates? That's a big fat no. Legally we aren't permitted and it would be a whole lot more than most of them could afford so we spread it over everyone.

At least with property if you own the house and don't carry insurance and get wiped out it just sucks to be you.

Not so with healthcare.... people generally don't forego care because they can't pay, they just go to the ER when things get out of control and end up costing more.

If I managed my risk by refusing to deal with risks we're going to pay for anyway and just ignored them until they got many times more expensive I'd get fired.

Actuarial pricing is a combination of appropriate pricing where possible and loss management. When you know darn good and well you're going to have to pay one way or another you look for ways to mitigate as much as possible. People will just go to the ER when they have no options and we'll all pay anyway.

We have to mitigate our damages within the confines of what is reasonable to ask of people.
lifeistooshort is online now  
post #66 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:43 AM
Forum Supporter
 
Emerging Buddhist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: World-wide
Posts: 1,348
Re: If ACA is repealed

All I know is when the ACA happened regulations went into effect that I directly (and many in the org) could not keep the health I had and it cost me more money with higher co-pay for fewer options of care.

Instead of lying to me twice by many who never read it in it's entirety before placing it into law, this would not be an issue if insurances could compete across state lines:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/...purchases.aspx

and our own FDA partnered with Canadian Pharma:

This article sent me into extra reflections in any governed care.

Wait, Why Did Washington Senators Vote Against Buying Cheaper Drugs from Canada? - Slog - The Stranger

True, it's an opinion article, but it has some great links and I read all sources of information, but I probably spend more time reading that which I don't agree with for a better understanding of why such thoughts come.

ETA: Repeal the bad, enhance the good, severely punish the fraud. I would ask "how hard could this be?", but then I remember what people with power and greed want... and the sad answer always seems "more of it".

Last edited by Emerging Buddhist; 01-29-2017 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Mindful ETA...
Emerging Buddhist is offline  
post #67 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:47 AM
Member
 
john117's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 11,394
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
That's the only type of health insurance that actually makes sense. Imagine how much car insurance would cost if it covered gas!
Standard Breitbart talking points.

Did it ever occur to you that some things require periodic maintenance? The same consumers in the 80's who railed against American car reliability and maintenance requirements were all too happy to switch to imports which also had more strict maintenance requirements...

It's not any different in people. They need maintenance. Catastrophic care is good, but being nickeled and dimed for routine health care is not the answer either.

As long as we pay physicians NFL salaries (and I have one kid starting medical school this fall) and choosing totally obscure payola specialties we'll get more of this. Not to mention Trump tower facilities and staffing...
john117 is online now  
post #68 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:48 AM
Member
 
SimplyAmorous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 13,857
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by jld View Post
From the opening post:

It means that if you are a struggling parent who is uninsured or under-insured, you will no longer be able to count on at least your kids getting the routine medical and dental care they need under the Children's Health Insurance Plan (CHIP). The Senate GOP voted that CHIP is not required to be protected by an eventual ACA replacement.
I, for one, am not a bit surprised... just don't give me your Bull**** how You CARE about every American and their plight...you sitting there in the top 10% with your Golden health care plans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeistooshort View Post
Not so with healthcare.... people generally don't forego care because they can't pay, they just go to the ER when things get out of control and end up costing more.

If I managed my risk by refusing to deal with risks we're going to pay for anyway and just ignored them until they got many times more expensive I'd get fired.

Actuarial pricing is a combination of appropriate pricing where possible and loss management. When you know darn good and well you're going to have to pay one way or another you look for ways to mitigate as much as possible. People will just go to the ER when they have no options and we'll all pay anyway.

We have to mitigate our damages within the confines of what is reasonable to ask of people.
So true....I read this story yesterday, one of MANY (in blue below)...it just shouldn't be this way... Is healthcare a fundamental human right? Should it be?

Quote:
Germany and the United States are two developed countries with radically different approaches to healthcare access. I worked in hospitals in both countries and will address the questions based on my experiences, both as provider and recipient of healthcare.

As a patient in the United States, long before I worked in a German hospital, I never questioned the notion of postponing healthcare due to insurance reasons or financial reseasons. If I needed surgery, a medical procedure or even a visit to the dentist, I would first ask myself how much I expected my insurance to cover, how much I would have to pay out of pocket, and if I would have to pay too much for medication or a procedure, I would postpone it (if possible) until I got a new job or my student status changed. This is everyday life for Americans fortunate enough to afford health insurance. While a healthcare provider's first and foremost priority is to provide all patients with timely healthcare, the reality is that individuals without insurance are severely limited in their access to healthcare (especially preventative healthcare). The emergency department is not a substitute for a primary care provider's office, but unfortunately millions of Americans received most of their primary care in emergency departments because that's the only place where a physician can't turn them down for financial reasons. The emergency department is just that -- a department designed to address urgent and emergent (i.e. life- and limb-threatening) conditions. It is not the best place to be counseled on the importance of quitting smoking with long-term follow-up, to receive routine prenatal care or to address a child's behavioral problems.

Another problem with using the emergency department to receive primary care is that it is inefficient. Patients are triaged by acuity, there are many patients there with highly acute issues, and it's expensive. The last time I was in the ED was about 8 years ago because of a bad stomach flu. My insurance was billed $1,200 for one dose of anti-vomiting medicine and salt water. $300 Tylenols and $1000 salt water includes, of course, the emergency physicians' , nurses' and technicians' services.

Our healthcare system and laws governing access to healthcare should not penalize patients, especially the financially weakest! These access issues are not the fault of patients or providers, but of a lack of laws governing access to healthcare.

My experience with the German healthcare system made me question the US healthcare system on many levels. In Germany, the concept of delaying healthcare to "let insurance kick on", or rushing to get procedures done "before my parents' insurance expires" is a foreign one. In Germany and other developed European nations, healthcare is available whenever and wherever it is necessary. It is treated as a human right. One downfall of nationalized healthcare is the existence of a "two-class" healthcare system, to a greater or lesser extent. However both as a patient and as someone in the healthcare profession, I find it practical to decrease the luxury factor of some hospital rooms in exchange for making healthcare accessible to everyone as a human right. Hospitals in German resemble Veterans Affairs hospitals: practical, efficient and very high quality. They do not look like hotel rooms, like many private US hospitals.

I'd like to make my arguments a bit more concrete by narrating a story of a close friend of mine, a man in his mid-60s who was a role model to anyone who met him. One day he started developing abdominal pain. I told him to see his doctor, and then, when it got worse, to go to the emergency department, but he refused to let me take him because he was uninsured at the time (although he was employed full-time). A few days later, he disappeared, and I began to fear the worst. Five weeks later, thankfully, he showed up to work again -- about 30 pounds lighter, his clothes literally hanging off a frame of bones. His appendix ruptured, and he was found delirious in his apartment and nearly died fighting for his life in the intensive care unit for several weeks. His hospital bill at the end of this ordeal was about $80,000, not to mention the emotionally and physically traumatic experience of nearly dying of overwhelming infection.

This innocent man's near-death and financial demise could have been prevented had this man had access to the healthcare system, had healthcare truly been treated by the law as a human right. Instead, we have a huge population of people that can't afford to make an appointment to see a primary care physician or buy antibiotics to treat community-acquired pneumonia, and a population of patients paying cash for the cosmetic surgeries of their choosing.


In a country as great as the United States, stories like that of my friend, which are repeated millions of times each year and which result in loss of life, quality of life, and deterioriation of the healthcare system as a whole, could be remedied by adopting a nationalized healthcare system. The cost of a socially Darwinistic healthcare system falls upon those in the worst physical and financial health. I realize that this is a highly sensitive topic for many people, however I hope my personal and professional experiences in the United States as well as in Europe will help clarify the "boogie man trying to pull the plug" hysteria surrounding this subject and to highlight some advantages and disadvantages of nationalized healthcare and some reasons why I believe that healthcare should be treated as a human right.
SimplyAmorous is offline  
post #69 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:53 AM
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,500
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeistooshort View Post
Don't flatter yourself by insulting me, with your whole actuarial clerk experience. Since I work in pricing I'm pretty sure I know how insurance works.

I'm not sure that you do.

Nowhere in my post did I say people shouldn't pay....I said that it was a falsehood to think that before ACA you weren't subsidizing the uninsurable.

People who use more do pay more where legally allowed, but the fact is they aren't going to be able to pay what their risk load really requires. Insurance is a shared risk pool for this reason.....most people who need more than very basic care wouldn't be able to afford it.

The same thing happens in P&C.....do you think people who live on the coast actually pay what their risk load dictates? That's a big fat no. Legally we aren't permitted and it would be a whole lot more than most of them could afford so we spread it over everyone. .
Nice try at condescension, but I know quite a bit about how insurance works in a free market such as life insurance. Maybe you don't understand that, because you are in a much more government-controlled arena of insurance. However the fact that the government forces you to cover people without collecting the correct premium isn't an argument for government intervention, but for the government to stop intervening so that the risks are properly priced. Why should people on the coasts who have extremely expensive property be subsidized by people with a lot less money than they have? Even communists would blush at such thievery.

Always remember the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"
tech-novelist is offline  
post #70 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:01 AM
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,500
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by john117 View Post
Standard Breitbart talking points.

Did it ever occur to you that some things require periodic maintenance? The same consumers in the 80's who railed against American car reliability and maintenance requirements were all too happy to switch to imports which also had more strict maintenance requirements...

It's not any different in people. They need maintenance. Catastrophic care is good, but being nickeled and dimed for routine health care is not the answer either.

As long as we pay physicians NFL salaries (and I have one kid starting medical school this fall) and choosing totally obscure payola specialties we'll get more of this. Not to mention Trump tower facilities and staffing...
I know a lot about insurance, and I didn't learn it from Breitbart.

If periodic checkups reduce overall health care expenses, then in a free market health insurance companies will give discounts to those who get those checkups; otherwise, other companies that understand this will take away their customers who do get those checkups.

This isn't merely theoretical, either. When one company started segmenting "standard" life insurance risks into categories based on health status, with the best ("preferred") risks getting much lower rates, the entire industry switched to multiple preferred risk categories. Any company that didn't do that risked a death spiral because their customers who qualified for those lower rates would switch to companies that offered them, leaving the backward company with worse risks, causing them to have to increase rates. This whole switch took only a few years even in a very conservative industry.

Similar changes would occur with health insurance in a free market; as one company discovered ways to lower costs and premiums, they would be followed by other companies that wanted to remain competitive.

I know you're from a communist country, but you're in the US now; please try to keep up.


Always remember the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"
tech-novelist is offline  
post #71 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:09 AM
Forum Supporter
 
Emerging Buddhist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: World-wide
Posts: 1,348
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
I, for one, am not a bit surprised... just don't give me your Bull**** how You CARE about every American and their plight...you sitting there in the top 10% with your Golden health care plans.


So true....I read this story yesterday, one of MANY (in blue below)...it just shouldn't be this way... Is healthcare a fundamental human right? Should it be?
My state system covers all who meet indigent, free and reduced, illegal... there is a plan for all who cannot afford it.

Medical Programs
Health for Kids
To apply for or renew your Health coverage for children,

your Health for Workers with Disabilities (HWD) Program
Program that allows individuals with disabilities who are working to purchase medical coverage by paying a monthly premium that is based on their income.

Family Medical
To apply for or renew your Health coverage for families

Medicare Savings Programs
Programs to help Medicare recipients pay for all or part of their Medicare premiums

Alien Emergency Medical Program
Emergency medical program for individuals who do not meet the citizenship requirements for other DSHS medical programs that are age 65 and older and not a caretaker for a child under 18 or eligible for Medicare.

Pregnancy Medical Program
To apply for your Health coverage for pregnant women

Aged, Blind, or Disabled Medical Program
Medical coverage for aged, blind or disabled individuals.


Health care is a right... mismanagement of it shouldn't be.
Emerging Buddhist is offline  
post #72 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:10 AM
Member
 
lucy999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Brownbackistan
Posts: 1,842
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeministInPink View Post

I would rather pay into a plan that covers everyone and standardizes costs so that people can't be bankrupted by medical bills, even if it doesn't directly benefit me right now. You never know when you will need it. I never know when I will need it.
Wow ive said this same thing almost verbatim.
lucy999 is offline  
post #73 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:11 AM
Member
 
john117's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 11,394
Re: If ACA is repealed

Comrade tech-novelist,

I do get a "credit" if I have check ups and such. It's about $150. Total credits are $700. For next year's coverage. It won't do me any good towards massive deductibles or copays or prescriptions that are in the thousands of dollars every year at my age.

You demonstrate the disconnect between what wannabes, politicians and executives think health care costs vs what it costs...
john117 is online now  
post #74 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:28 AM
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,500
Re: If ACA is repealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by john117 View Post
Comrade tech-novelist,

I do get a "credit" if I have check ups and such. It's about $150. Total credits are $700. For next year's coverage. It won't do me any good towards massive deductibles or copays or prescriptions that are in the thousands of dollars every year at my age.

You demonstrate the disconnect between what wannabes, politicians and executives think health care costs vs what it costs...
There is no necessity for health insurance to be so expensive. One of the biggest issues is that since almost no one pays for their own care directly, there is very little reason for providers to compete on costs. This causes an upward spiral in premiums and costs, just like with tuition, and is made worse because most people don't even buy their own insurance.

If everyone bought their own coverage, which could be bought across state lines and would pay only for health care expenses above a certain limit, costs would go down substantially due to competition among insurers and the reduction in administrative expenses. Allowing people to pick their own coverage would help a lot as well, since many people don't need pregnancy coverage or the like but are forced to pay for it under ACA.

Always remember the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"
tech-novelist is offline  
post #75 of 275 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:37 AM
Forum Supporter
 
Emerging Buddhist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: World-wide
Posts: 1,348
Re: If ACA is repealed

I lived in Germany and Luxembourg for 5 years and my wife is a European national... 38% of her income was taken in taxes for such government services, we used the national health care for pre-natal other services because that is where the medical was for us, I even have a Luxembourg social security card in my name but people would flock to France for healthcare... still do.

I have two brother-in-laws in France and the health care there is superb.

Our's could be affordable for all as well maintaining the quality we mostly have, and it wouldn't take a 38% tax to provide it.

I agree with FIP too, no system should place a person into debt for healthcare, but then I have lived long enough if such an illness befalls me, I believe my most expensive cost will probably be morphine under the current system, but then for myself, I am ready to let go when the time comes even without fear of debt but no person should ever be forced into it (debt for healthcare).

There is promoting health for all and saving lives, and there is artificially extending life beyond it's intent. My Grandmother passed away at 97... one of our last visits she asked "why hasn't the Lord taken me yet when I am so ready...". The answer was obvious, the state wouldn't allow it.

Life itself is a death panel of sorts... state mandated health care may interfere with it, but in the end should not stop it's action even while in motion.

The ACA was a fool's errand of poorly thought out solutions for a problem created by the same trying to fix it.

Last edited by Emerging Buddhist; 01-29-2017 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Added to the thought...
Emerging Buddhist is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on Talk About Marriage, you must first register. Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Important! Your username will be visible to the public next to anything you post and could show up in search engines like Google. If you are concerned about anonymity, PLEASE choose a username that will not be recognizable to anyone you know.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trump hater thread. He's an idiot jdawg2015 Politics and Religion 1476 08-18-2016 10:59 AM
Why is healthcare so expensive? Idyit Politics and Religion 605 05-14-2016 08:05 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome