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post #16 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:37 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Originally Posted by zookeeper View Post
The verses you quote seem to be crystal clear that remarriage after divorce is a sin. Where do you see ambiguity?
i dont.


"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #17 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:40 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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That's very interesting! I never thought about that part. Yes, in biblical days women would be destitute if they did not have a husband! Very interesting!!!

Would you consider a spouse's refusal to continue sexual relations with her husband grounds for divorce?
I would see long term refusal to have sex with your spouse as disobedience to God unless there are reasons such as illness, disability, abuse by the spouse , severe depression etc. If there was no such reason, then I would want that spouse to be challenged, and for them to agree to go to marriage counselling to try and sort it out.
If they refused to do anything about it, or to try and make things better, then I can see why its sometimes best to end it. I would want to pray about it though, and talk to some wise people in the church.

Personally I wouldn't end my marriage because my husband stopped wanting sex, but I am older, and I can understand if people do especially if they have a high sex drive.
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post #18 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:42 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
i have seen that as a justification for divorce, but where is it a justification for divorce and re-marriage?
If you are divorced the marriage is over, you are then single. Why wouldn't you remarry if led to do so?
Thats what they did back in Bible times, they would always remarry. It was expected and vital for the women who had no means of support except her husband.
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post #19 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:45 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

In the process of converting to Roman Catholic.

According to the Church, if a marriage is validly entered into at the time of the ceremony, nothing can dissolve it other than the death of one of the spouses. If a marriage was invalidly entered into at the time of the ceremony, it can be Annulled.

"Let these nuptial goods be the objects of our love: offspring, fidelity, the unbreakable bond." St Augustine.

The Church teaches that, for a marriage to be valid, it must include the "goods of marriage" listed above. The more modern phrasing is that the goods of marriage are Permanence, Fidelity, Procreation, and the "good of the spouses".

All marriages are assumed valid unless/until evaluated by a Tribunal. The exceptions to this rule are when a Baptized Catholic marries outside the Church without dispensation or when one or both spouses have been previously married and remarried while their first spouse is living and without Annulment.

The Tribunal consists of a Procurator/Advocate, a Defender of the Bond, and a Judge. The Tribunal collects evidence from the Petitioner (applicant for Annulment), Defendant (the other spouse), and Witnesses. The Advocate uses the testimony and evidence presented to argue the marriage is invalid. The Defender uses the testimony and evidence to argue the marriage is valid. The Judge makes a determination.

If the Tribunal determines a valid marriage existed, then the Petitioner is considered married for religious purposes until their spouse dies. If the Tribunal determines a valid marriage never existed, the Petitioner was never married in the first place and is free to marry.

I had Annulment finalized in 2015. The Church gave me and my ex each a questionnaire. It was quite detailed, asking about our upbringing, previous relationships, every detail of courtship and marriage, sex, beliefs growing up and at the time of marriage, etc. The Tribunal asked for any supporting documents such as CPS reports, court records, and psychiatric treatment records/counseling records. They required I submit the names of 5 Witnesses who knew us before and after the marriage and would be willing to submit their own testimony via mail, telephone, or in person.


Neither of us believed marriage to be permanent and we both believed marriage could be dissolved by the courts at any time for any reason. Supporting evidence was my rearing in a family that had many divorces and remarriages and that, on the day I married, I was talking to my best friend about the future divorce. Thankfully, she agreed to testify to that effect as one of my Witnesses.

Neither of us intended to be faithful, as evidenced by multiple affairs on both sides shortly after the ceremony and continuing throughout the "marriage". Since the affairs weren't a secret, all the Witnesses knew and could include that in their testimony.

I had a child with exH when we married, but at the time of the marriage I actively intended NOT to have children during the marriage and preventing possible pregnancy. Medical records and statements made to Witnesses corroborated this.

We were abusive toward each other physically (cuz if a man hits me, I WILL hit him back!) and could be very verbally cruel to each other, demonstrating no "for the good of the spouses".

When we married, we didn't believe or intend to keep the vows, we weren't entering into what the Church teaches marriage is, we never formed a marital bond, and the marriage was determined invalid.

Other grounds for Annulment include Fraud, Non-Consummation, Consanguinity, if a spouse entered into a marriage due to threats of coercion, and a few other I can't remember off the top of my head.

After going through the Annulment process and having the Tribunal agree that the marriage wasn't valid, I feel spiritually confident in my marriage to DH. As far as I'm concerned, my first marriage was only valid legally and my marriage to DH is the only marriage I ever entered into "in God's eyes".

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #20 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
If you are divorced the marriage is over, you are then single. Why wouldn't you remarry if led to do so?
Thats what they did back in Bible times, they would always remarry. It was expected and vital for the women who had no means of support except her husband.
do you have scripture that backs up the notion that women always remarried in biblical times? if so, i would love to see it. it would put that little controversy to rest...

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #21 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:59 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Except for 'pornea' Jesus says.
If you're going to treat the book at the word of god, it has to be taken literally. Based on the first quote alone, a man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery period. A man who divorces a woman who has been unfailtful appears to get a pass, but no such status is granted the woman should her husband be unfaithful.

If instead, the book is a book written, translated and rewritten and edited by countless humans with varying agendas and perspectives...why bother trying to bend its words to fit your own desires? Do as you like in accordance to your beliefs of what your god wants from you.
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post #22 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Originally Posted by MJJEAN View Post
In the process of converting to Roman Catholic.

According to the Church, if a marriage is validly entered into at the time of the ceremony, nothing can dissolve it other than the death of one of the spouses. If a marriage was invalidly entered into at the time of the ceremony, it can be Annulled.

"Let these nuptial goods be the objects of our love: offspring, fidelity, the unbreakable bond." St Augustine.

The Church teaches that, for a marriage to be valid, it must include the "goods of marriage" listed above. The more modern phrasing is that the goods of marriage are Permanence, Fidelity, Procreation, and the "good of the spouses".

All marriages are assumed valid unless/until evaluated by a Tribunal. The exceptions to this rule are when a Baptized Catholic marries outside the Church without dispensation or when one or both spouses have been previously married and remarried while their first spouse is living and without Annulment.

The Tribunal consists of a Procurator/Advocate, a Defender of the Bond, and a Judge. The Tribunal collects evidence from the Petitioner (applicant for Annulment), Defendant (the other spouse), and Witnesses. The Advocate uses the testimony and evidence presented to argue the marriage is invalid. The Defender uses the testimony and evidence to argue the marriage is valid. The Judge makes a determination.

If the Tribunal determines a valid marriage existed, then the Petitioner is considered married for religious purposes until their spouse dies. If the Tribunal determines a valid marriage never existed, the Petitioner was never married in the first place and is free to marry.

I had Annulment finalized in 2015. The Church gave me and my ex each a questionnaire. It was quite detailed, asking about our upbringing, previous relationships, every detail of courtship and marriage, sex, beliefs growing up and at the time of marriage, etc. The Tribunal asked for any supporting documents such as CPS reports, court records, and psychiatric treatment records/counseling records. They required I submit the names of 5 Witnesses who knew us before and after the marriage and would be willing to submit their own testimony via mail, telephone, or in person.


Neither of us believed marriage to be permanent and we both believed marriage could be dissolved by the courts at any time for any reason. Supporting evidence was my rearing in a family that had many divorces and remarriages and that, on the day I married, I was talking to my best friend about the future divorce. Thankfully, she agreed to testify to that effect as one of my Witnesses.

Neither of us intended to be faithful, as evidenced by multiple affairs on both sides shortly after the ceremony and continuing throughout the "marriage". Since the affairs weren't a secret, all the Witnesses knew and could include that in their testimony.

I had a child with exH when we married, but at the time of the marriage I actively intended NOT to have children during the marriage and preventing possible pregnancy. Medical records and statements made to Witnesses corroborated this.

We were abusive toward each other physically (cuz if a man hits me, I WILL hit him back!) and could be very verbally cruel to each other, demonstrating no "for the good of the spouses".

When we married, we didn't believe or intend to keep the vows, we weren't entering into what the Church teaches marriage is, we never formed a marital bond, and the marriage was determined invalid.

Other grounds for Annulment include Fraud, Non-Consummation, Consanguinity, if a spouse entered into a marriage due to threats of coercion, and a few other I can't remember off the top of my head.

After going through the Annulment process and having the Tribunal agree that the marriage wasn't valid, I feel spiritually confident in my marriage to DH. As far as I'm concerned, my first marriage was only valid legally and my marriage to DH is the only marriage I ever entered into "in God's eyes".
these are all processes and traditions created by the church. im trying to find out if any of this stuff that we do nowadays is actually backed by scripture.

do you know of any scripture that defines a valid marriage? is it in the bible anywhere?

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #23 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:08 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJEAN View Post
In the process of converting to Roman Catholic.

According to the Church, if a marriage is validly entered into at the time of the ceremony, nothing can dissolve it other than the death of one of the spouses. If a marriage was invalidly entered into at the time of the ceremony, it can be Annulled.

"Let these nuptial goods be the objects of our love: offspring, fidelity, the unbreakable bond." St Augustine.

The Church teaches that, for a marriage to be valid, it must include the "goods of marriage" listed above. The more modern phrasing is that the goods of marriage are Permanence, Fidelity, Procreation, and the "good of the spouses".

All marriages are assumed valid unless/until evaluated by a Tribunal. The exceptions to this rule are when a Baptized Catholic marries outside the Church without dispensation or when one or both spouses have been previously married and remarried while their first spouse is living and without Annulment.

The Tribunal consists of a Procurator/Advocate, a Defender of the Bond, and a Judge. The Tribunal collects evidence from the Petitioner (applicant for Annulment), Defendant (the other spouse), and Witnesses. The Advocate uses the testimony and evidence presented to argue the marriage is invalid. The Defender uses the testimony and evidence to argue the marriage is valid. The Judge makes a determination.

If the Tribunal determines a valid marriage existed, then the Petitioner is considered married for religious purposes until their spouse dies. If the Tribunal determines a valid marriage never existed, the Petitioner was never married in the first place and is free to marry.

I had Annulment finalized in 2015. The Church gave me and my ex each a questionnaire. It was quite detailed, asking about our upbringing, previous relationships, every detail of courtship and marriage, sex, beliefs growing up and at the time of marriage, etc. The Tribunal asked for any supporting documents such as CPS reports, court records, and psychiatric treatment records/counseling records. They required I submit the names of 5 Witnesses who knew us before and after the marriage and would be willing to submit their own testimony via mail, telephone, or in person.


Neither of us believed marriage to be permanent and we both believed marriage could be dissolved by the courts at any time for any reason. Supporting evidence was my rearing in a family that had many divorces and remarriages and that, on the day I married, I was talking to my best friend about the future divorce. Thankfully, she agreed to testify to that effect as one of my Witnesses.

Neither of us intended to be faithful, as evidenced by multiple affairs on both sides shortly after the ceremony and continuing throughout the "marriage". Since the affairs weren't a secret, all the Witnesses knew and could include that in their testimony.

I had a child with exH when we married, but at the time of the marriage I actively intended NOT to have children during the marriage and preventing possible pregnancy. Medical records and statements made to Witnesses corroborated this.

We were abusive toward each other physically (cuz if a man hits me, I WILL hit him back!) and could be very verbally cruel to each other, demonstrating no "for the good of the spouses".

When we married, we didn't believe or intend to keep the vows, we weren't entering into what the Church teaches marriage is, we never formed a marital bond, and the marriage was determined invalid.

Other grounds for Annulment include Fraud, Non-Consummation, Consanguinity, if a spouse entered into a marriage due to threats of coercion, and a few other I can't remember off the top of my head.

After going through the Annulment process and having the Tribunal agree that the marriage wasn't valid, I feel spiritually confident in my marriage to DH. As far as I'm concerned, my first marriage was only valid legally and my marriage to DH is the only marriage I ever entered into "in God's eyes".
I cant agree.If you married you were married no matter where. If he cheated then then you were free to divorce him and then remarry, but that doesn't mean you weren't married before.
The RC church has so many man made ideas that are entirely unbiblical. Annulment is their sneaky way of getting round the no divorce idea. The only justification I can see for it is if there was no sex, ever.

In Gods eyes you WERE married before, you made promises before Him to each other. You entered into that covenant relationship together. If you had biblical reason to end it, then this marriage is also recognised by God, but as your second marriage. There is no annulment in the bible, only divorce. Presumably you had to get divorced as well anyway?
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post #24 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:20 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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If you're going to treat the book at the word of god, it has to be taken literally. Based on the first quote alone, a man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery period. A man who divorces a woman who has been unfailtful appears to get a pass, but no such status is granted the woman should her husband be unfaithful.

If instead, the book is a book written, translated and rewritten and edited by countless humans with varying agendas and perspectives...why bother trying to bend its words to fit your own desires? Do as you like in accordance to your beliefs of what your god wants from you.
I spent many many hours studying this subject many years ago. I listened to many Bible teachers teaching on it on it. I prayed and asked God to show me what it all meant.
He led me to the story of the woman at the well who had been married 5 times and was at that time living with a man she wasn't married to. The thing that hit me was the fact that he recognised all of her husbands as having been her husbands, and all of her marriages as being marriages. This despite the fact that she was previously divorced. Jesus said 'you are correct that you have had 5 husbands, and the man you are living with isn't your husband'.

Therefore Jesus recognises each marriage as being a marriage, not adultery. If the other spouse has already broken the covenant by their actions(eg committing adultery), then the marriage can end and the other spouse is free to remarry if God leads them to. Some do and some don't.

I recommend a book by David Innstone- Brewer on this topic. He is a very learned Bible scholar who has studied this subject in great depth in the whole Bible, looking at the original greek and hebrew words used and the context in which each thing was said.
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post #25 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:32 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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I spent many many hours studying this subject many years ago. I listened to many Bible teachers teaching on it on it. I prayed and asked God to show me what it all meant.
He led me to the story of the woman at the well who had been married 5 times and was at that time living with a man she wasn't married to. The thing that hit me was the fact that he recognised all of her husbands as having been her husbands, and all of her marriages as being marriages. This despite the fact that she was previously divorced. Jesus said 'you are correct that you have had 5 husbands, and the man you are living with isn't your husband'.

Therefore Jesus recognises each marriage as being a marriage, not adultery. If the other spouse has already broken the covenant by their actions(eg committing adultery), then the marriage can end and the other spouse is free to remarry if God leads them to. Some do and some don't.

I recommend a book by David Innstone- Brewer on this topic. He is a very learned Bible scholar who has studied this subject in great depth in the whole Bible, looking at the original greek and hebrew words used and the context in which each thing was said.
If you can pray to your god and receive answers directly from him on how he wants you to behave, what is the need for the Bible?

I'm not trying to antagonize you, I am genuinely curious. The Bible must be fundamentally flawed at this point. Even if it was the absolute word of god at one point, how could it possibly be intact after centuries of translation and editing? There are material differences between different versions of the Bible today. Which one is right and which is wrong? What do you do about the conflicting messages within each version itself? How do you decide which bits to follow and which bits to dismiss and anachronistic?

This is not specific to Christianity, either. My wife has some Orthodox Jewish members of her family. When I see the lengths they go to in order to get around specifIc instructions of the Bible that allows them to violate the intent but comply technically, I find it puzzling. This whole thread read like that to me. Perhaps I did not understand the actual quartile being posed.

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post #26 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

im still looking for any scripture that has to do with getting married again after divorce...


not just scriptural grounds for divorce...

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #27 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:39 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

I highly recommend the book "When Divorce is Scriptural and Marriage is Unscriptural" by J. Vernon McGee.

As a Christian, I have often wondered if God recognizes all marriages or if certain types of "marriage" performed outside the church are not true marriage. Is a marriage spiritually binding if you take the oaths but never file the legal paperwork? My STBX was "married" in a Wiccan handfasting to his GF before he met me, but they never married legally and they simply split up with no ceremony or paperwork whatsoever. Did God recognize that ceremony, and if so, are my husband and I legitimately married in God's eyes?

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post #28 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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I highly recommend the book "When Divorce is Scriptural and Marriage is Unscriptural" by J. Vernon McGee.

As a Christian, I have often wondered if God recognizes all marriages or if certain types of "marriage" performed outside the church are not true marriage. Is a marriage spiritually binding if you take the oaths but never file the legal paperwork? My STBX was "married" in a Wiccan handfasting to his GF before he met me, but they never married legally and they simply split up with no ceremony or paperwork whatsoever. Did God recognize that ceremony, and if so, are my husband and I legitimately married in God's eyes?
i would say you ARE legitimately married. as noted earlier, even jesus recognized the lady at the wells five marriages as valid enough to acknowledge them.

of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that the bible doesnt still call it adultery. there really doesnt seem to be much biblical guidance in the way of what constitutes a valid marriage... it all kinda has to be inferred, or we just use the model of adam and eve.

as far as i can tell, if you pair up with someone, have sex, procreate, etc. its a marriage.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #29 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:44 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
these are all processes and traditions created by the church. im trying to find out if any of this stuff that we do nowadays is actually backed by scripture.

do you know of any scripture that defines a valid marriage? is it in the bible anywhere?
From the beginning it was defined as one man and one women, the two becoming one flesh.

Our ceremonies are for us. God doesn't require festivals to consecrate a marriage.
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post #30 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 11:47 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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I would see long term refusal to have sex with your spouse as disobedience to God unless there are reasons such as illness, disability, abuse by the spouse , severe depression etc. If there was no such reason, then I would want that spouse to be challenged, and for them to agree to go to marriage counselling to try and sort it out.
If they refused to do anything about it, or to try and make things better, then I can see why its sometimes best to end it. I would want to pray about it though, and talk to some wise people in the church.

Personally I wouldn't end my marriage because my husband stopped wanting sex, but I am older, and I can understand if people do especially if they have a high sex drive.
Good point. It's driving me crazy because I know my wife will never change in regards to having a regular sex life in our marriage. Even after all the times of her saying "she will try" I have learned that those are just words. She won't change. It's been years and years!

I hope to have us both talk to my Priest soon. But she said she did not want to. After a long talk I told her I am making an appointment. Even if she does no, I know she won't change. I am not sure if she is capable of change.

She knows good and well that sex means closeness to me. She even acknowledge it. But she will not change. Take just now, for instance. I was talking to her and tried to get close. But she put up her wall.

I am older too. Sex is still a very important part of life to me. It's not dirty, it's not awful, it's beautiful For crying out loud, I don't even want it as much as I used to. Well, that's not true. I do. But any sex is better than zero sex. And perhaps that's where I go wrong. It should not be that way. I should be married to a woman who desires to be with me. None of this nonsense negotiating...
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