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post #91 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 06:57 PM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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One thing to remember is that the church is filled with sinners. No Christian is perfect. They tell white lies, lost their patience, curse, and do sinful things. And God looks at all sin as being equal. A liar is just as bad as a murderer. HUMANS are the ones that change the list of sins from least egregious to most horrific. To God, one sin is just as bad as the other. To that end, divorced men/women will not go to hell just because they get remarried.

In purely historical, evangelical Christian terms, what sends people to hell is the lack of a personal relationship with Christ, and not accepting the gift of His death and resurrection to restore us into that relationship after sin was introduced with Adam/Eve. To a Christian, THAT'S the most important thing. Because if it was based purely on sin (one sin or all sin) - and avoiding it - we'd all go to hell.
I recently learned of the Catholic teaching of Mortal Sins vs Venial Sins. The Mortal Sin will send a person to hell unless they go to confession and do penance, whereas a Venial Sin will not send you to hell, but you will have to suffer for it in Purgatory. At least, that's how I understand it. I am in a little conflict with that in comparison with what you mentioned above. I can't find the Bible verse right now, but as you know, the Apostle Paul says all sin is equal. Or was he talking about the law. So the two schools of thought might sound like they conflict. But do they?

I recall Pat Robertson talking about sin in one of his teaching tapes way back in the early 1980s. He talked about Psalm 51 and how Kind David repented after sinning with Bathsheba and killing her husband. In this lesson Robertson gave the distinction between Transgressions and Iniquity. Transgressions was much like Mortal Sin and Iniquity was much like Venial Sin. So here is an Evangelical Minister basically teaching the same thing that Catholics are.

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post #92 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 09:52 PM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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I recently learned of the Catholic teaching of Mortal Sins vs Venial Sins. The Mortal Sin will send a person to hell unless they go to confession and do penance, whereas a Venial Sin will not send you to hell, but you will have to suffer for it in Purgatory. At least, that's how I understand it. I am in a little conflict with that in comparison with what you mentioned above. I can't find the Bible verse right now, but as you know, the Apostle Paul says all sin is equal. Or was he talking about the law. So the two schools of thought might sound like they conflict. But do they?

I recall Pat Robertson talking about sin in one of his teaching tapes way back in the early 1980s. He talked about Psalm 51 and how Kind David repented after sinning with Bathsheba and killing her husband. In this lesson Robertson gave the distinction between Transgressions and Iniquity. Transgressions was much like Mortal Sin and Iniquity was much like Venial Sin. So here is an Evangelical Minister basically teaching the same thing that Catholics are.
Thats another man made teaching that is entirely unbiblical. All sin can be forgiven with repentance, and we don't ever need to go to a priest to be forgiven, but straight to God through Jesus. remember the Lords prayer 'Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us'.
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post #93 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 10:05 PM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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I did too! I thought second husband was a godsend...ha! Boy was I wrong.

both my marriages were with Christian men that were indeed religious and came from good God fearing families.

To be honest, first husband had pretty much the same characteristics as husband number 2 with the exception of charisma. Husband 2 swept me off my feet with his loving words and actions that were really just not real. He sold me something he knew a was desperately seeking and I fell hook, line and sinker.

There are bad men dressed in godly clothing, second husband is one of many.
Lots of Christians are lost people, just because someone converts doesn't mean your character flaw immediately get fixed. Some of the worst people I have ever met in my life were Church leaders. Lots of people use religion as a tool to game people.
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post #94 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 10:28 PM
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Lots of Christians are lost people, just because someone converts doesn't mean your character flaw immediately get fixed. Some of the worst people I have ever met in my life were Church leaders. Lots of people use religion as a tool to game people.
We are all lost people, the difference is that Christians know that and thats why they follow Jesus Christ. Having said that, I know so many lovely, mature, kind, caring strong Christians. There are also some really godly men about, sadly most are spoken for, but I feel blessed to have met one when his wife had just met another man and had ended the marriage. Her loss was my gain.
I think she was crazy, but I am not complaining.
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post #95 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 04:26 AM
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Thats another man made teaching that is entirely unbiblical. All sin can be forgiven with repentance, and we don't ever need to go to a priest to be forgiven, but straight to God through Jesus. remember the Lords prayer 'Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us'.
The Catholic doctrine of confession goes all the way back to the time of Jesus Christ Himself.
Please read the Gospel of John chapter 20 Verse 21 through 23

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”


So yes, you can say the doctrine of confession is man made, it was made by the Man Jesus of Nazareth, the only begotten Son of God, all God, all Man, all Human and all divine.

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post #96 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 04:53 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Lots of Christians are lost people, just because someone converts doesn't mean your character flaw immediately get fixed. Some of the worst people I have ever met in my life were Church leaders. Lots of people use religion as a tool to game people.
@sokillme I wish I could disagree with you, but I can't. But this fact does not mean that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a true Gospel and that man will give an account of his life one day to Almighty God.

Just because we meet screwed up people does not mean we should not tremble in fear of that day when we meet Him.
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post #97 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 05:26 AM
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Cool Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Thats another man made teaching that is entirely unbiblical. All sin can be forgiven with repentance, and we don't ever need to go to a priest to be forgiven, but straight to God through Jesus. remember the Lords prayer 'Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us'.
John 3:16 supports the belief that all sins are truly forgiveness-worthy!

Like the loving, doting Heavenly Father that He is, He will compel us all to confess before Him, as well as to all of those who our many earthly sins and transgressions agreieved!

Heaven can only be entered upon having a clean, clear, and a God-forgiven conscience!

"To love another person is to see the face of God!" - Jean Valjean from Les Miserables

My Story! http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-t...andonment.html
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post #98 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 06:47 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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The Catholic doctrine of confession goes all the way back to the time of Jesus Christ Himself.
Please read the Gospel of John chapter 20 Verse 21 through 23

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”


So yes, you can say the doctrine of confession is man made, it was made by the Man Jesus of Nazareth, the only begotten Son of God, all God, all Man, all Human and all divine.
No where does God say that we should go to to a priest to confess.
Jesus teaches us how to confess in the lords prayer. 'Father forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us'. People do like to complicate things. Its so simple, we go direct to the Father who forgives all who truly repent. We need no fallible man or women to be our mediator, we have Jesus Christ.
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post #99 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 07:55 AM
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No where does God say that we should go to to a priest to confess.
Jesus teaches us how to confess in the lords prayer. 'Father forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us'. People do like to complicate things. Its so simple, we go direct to the Father who forgives all who truly repent. We need no fallible man or woman to be our mediator, we have Jesus Christ.
Verily ~ and Amen!

"To love another person is to see the face of God!" - Jean Valjean from Les Miserables

My Story! http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-t...andonment.html

Last edited by arbitrator; 01-31-2017 at 08:00 AM. Reason: Edification
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post #100 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 10:02 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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From the Catholic perspective, it's not possible to have two spouses at one time. The first marriage would be presumed valid and, therefore, the second and subsequent marriage(s) can't exist. The man is supposed to set aside the other "wives", but he is also morally obligated to financially provide for them and any children.


From the Catechism

2387 The predicament of a man who, desiring to convert to the Gospel, is obliged to repudiate one or more wives with whom he has shared years of conjugal life, is understandable. However polygamy is not in accord with the moral law.” [Conjugal] communion is radically contradicted by polygamy; this, in fact, directly negates the plan of God which was revealed from the beginning, because it is contrary to the equal personal dignity of men and women who in matrimony give themselves with a love that is total and therefore unique and exclusive.” The Christian who has previously lived in polygamy has a grave duty in justice to honor the obligations contracted in regard to his former wives and his children.
its a pretty poor incentive to convert...


"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #101 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 10:16 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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its a pretty poor incentive to convert...
Hopefully, if you're in this situation and converting, it's not because you want the Church to validate your multiple marriages. That should be very, very far from a reason.

The reason to convert to Catholicism (Roman or otherwise) is summed up in the Nicene Creed...

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

We believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
We confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.



If you reject this, then you should not consider the Church. If you find this resonates with you, perhaps you should explore it.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #102 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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From an outside perspective, I would answer your question RE: 2 wives as this: the way to live a righteous life is to not have 2 wives, and if you are Christian, you should know this. If you've gone ahead, and done this anyways, (we all sin) then I'd say divorce the second wife, and keep the first--as your vow was to her, and the second marriage would be invalid in the face of your vows. Honor your word. If you have children with the second wife, then you would have obligations to them, but to not see your former "spouse" outside of parenting roles.

If you're looking to the Bible for specific passages, I believe there are some about the "2 become one flesh"

I specifically brought up Catholicism because they are about the only Church that really cares about Annulments (CoE technically has them, but doesn't really utilize them, and so do Methodists, but again, it's not central to the Faith), and thought it was a relevant answer to your Annulment question. I think I explained as well as possible the value of having the Church review your marriage, and determine if the marriage ever actually existed, if you are of the kind that think "till death do us part" actually means what it says. As an individual, who has a stake in the divorce, it would taint your judgement, and so it is best left up to people steeped in scripture, and who can try to offer an objective view. (Btw, fun fact: the RCC actually has 2 councils review your marriage, and both must approve of the Annulment for it to be granted. If one agrees and the other says no, a third council reviews and makes the final decision)

i know a guy who actually married sisters. they had the same wedding ceremony. he married the other sister because she could not conceive children after having a hysterectomy due to cancer. his in-laws were ecstatic when he asked to marry them both. they thought the barren sister would never get married. a barren woman is not marriage material in their country. he originally just intended to take care of the barren one and provide a comfortable life for her, but it was difficult for her to accept that she would never have a husband in every sense of the word, so yea... he now dates both of his wives and has sex with them. his wives are quite happy with the arrangement. I would be hard pressed to find anything unrighteous about his decisions. what would really be unrighteous would be to tell him that he has to cast off one of his wives, seeing as they both love him.

so far as two becoming one flesh, its also stated that anyone who has sex with a prostitute becomes one flesh with her. 1 corinthians 6:16. from what i am seeing in the bible, nothing indicates that either marriages is invalid. the bible seems to say "dont do it", but seems to recognize that even if you do, its a valid marriage.

i know the catholic church has stated that anyone converting to christianity must cast off all but one wife, but is that found anywhere in the bible?

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #103 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 10:42 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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@sokillme I wish I could disagree with you, but I can't. But this fact does not mean that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a true Gospel and that man will give an account of his life one day to Almighty God.

Just because we meet screwed up people does not mean we should not tremble in fear of that day when we meet Him.
I am not judging their salvation that is between them and God. Just judging their actions. I would just counsel if someone was a real bad person before they got converted, don't assume they are fixed. Fixing takes years and lots of work. A total transformation in the blink of an eye is a very rare thing.
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post #104 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 11:03 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Hopefully, if you're in this situation and converting, it's not because you want the Church to validate your multiple marriages. That should be very, very far from a reason.

The reason to convert to Catholicism (Roman or otherwise) is summed up in the Nicene Creed...

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

We believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
We confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.



If you reject this, then you should not consider the Church. If you find this resonates with you, perhaps you should explore it.
I believe the word 'catholic' merely means universal, its not referring to the the RC church which I have many issues with. The church is any gathering of Gods people, His body on earth. It doesn't refer to a building or denomination.

In 40 years as a Christian I have only been to a RC church once, and that was for a wedding so I had little choice. I stay away because it has numerous unbiblical beliefs and teachings and some that are completely contrary to what the Bible says. Apart from them I would go to most denominations that were following God and His word, and where God was working among the people. theregdi and His worid
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post #105 of 227 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 11:08 AM
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Re: Divorce, Remarriage, Christianity.

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
i know a guy who actually married sisters. they had the same wedding ceremony. he married the other sister because she could not conceive children after having a hysterectomy due to cancer. his in-laws were ecstatic when he asked to marry them both. they thought the barren sister would never get married. a barren woman is not marriage material in their country. he originally just intended to take care of the barren one and provide a comfortable life for her, but it was difficult for her to accept that she would never have a husband in every sense of the word, so yea... he now dates both of his wives and has sex with them. his wives are quite happy with the arrangement. I would be hard pressed to find anything unrighteous about his decisions. what would really be unrighteous would be to tell him that he has to cast off one of his wives, seeing as they both love him.

so far as two becoming one flesh, its also stated that anyone who has sex with a prostitute becomes one flesh with her. 1 corinthians 6:16. from what i am seeing in the bible, nothing indicates that either marriages is invalid. the bible seems to say "dont do it", but seems to recognize that even if you do, its a valid marriage.

i know the catholic church has stated that anyone converting to christianity must cast off all but one wife, but is that found anywhere in the bible?
I'd have to go back and check. I don't go to Church, and haven't read the Bible in ~12 years, but I was raised in it, and went to Catholic school for the better part of 12 years... Despite biblical basis, the logical response is that you literally vowed before God that you would forsake all others, to love, honor, cherish, protect, till death do you part... So the only way out of that vow before God is for it to have been invalid, and to have thus never existed.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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