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post #136 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 09:24 AM
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Re: GOD

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Originally Posted by Ynot View Post
Again, I ask why does it seem that those who feel the need to continually witness seem to come across as trying to convince themselves that what they believe is true. Because I don't need faith, nor do I need belief. I know what I know and I also know what I don't know.
Its presumptuous for you to hear what people say and assume you know they are trying to convince themselves what they believe is true and the basis of their belief is fantasy or imagination. On the contrary, my perceptions is that non-believers are the ones on a crusade to argue against belief even use what ever means available (law) to stop the messenger including using unflattering characterizations of believers in an attempt to "set us straight".
Believe me, it bothers folks like you a lot more that folks like me believe than it bothers folks like me that you don't.


If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.

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post #137 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 09:49 AM
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Re: GOD

I think God is a little too powerful. I mean, there are no checks or balances to make sure he doesn't abuse his power...and by the bible, it sure seems like he does. Yeah, he made Satan and all, but it's not like he has any real power. He's like the Democrats right now.
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post #138 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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Re: GOD

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The problem is that I see no evidence for 2. Certainly the Abrahamic religions describe a God who commits all sorts of atrocities. (from the slaying of first-born of Egypt to Jobe's wife).
So the creature not only knows more about the character of the creator than the creator Himself, but also what is best.

That would be the definition of pride.
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post #139 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:29 AM Thread Starter
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Re: GOD

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One final thought that is perhaps more relevant to the thread. I found this quote but I am not sure who is its author. It pretty much sums up how I feel about questioning god if we humans are indeed one of his precious creations: "If I am wrong and there is a Judeo/christian god, the day of my death will truly be judgment day. I do herebt affirm that I will give him a chance to account for his deeds before I pass judgment upon him."
With an all powerful being such as god, with the ability to create anything he wanted at all, he chose to create men who would make mistakes (sometimes terrible ones) and who could potentially suffer such horrible indescribable pain both physical (think infants with cancer or other chronic conditions) and mental (schizophrenia, personality disorders, dementia etc). Unbelievable. And also, didn't he create the devil? What a loving, kind god indeed. I mean it has been said that without darkness we wouldn't appreciate light, but seriously couldn't this god have thought of just some milder forms of pain? Ugh. I just cannot even...
God has an answer for that, but I don't think you want to hear it. Actually this is what I was talking about in the OP. "Questioning" God as in your above statement.
If you want to know how God would answer the above, just reply. Just remember, it will REALLY piss you off!
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post #140 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:37 AM
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Re: GOD

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Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
Its presumptuous for you to hear what people say and assume you know they are trying to convince themselves what they believe is true and the basis of their belief is fantasy or imagination. On the contrary, my perceptions is that non-believers are the ones on a crusade to argue against belief even use what ever means available (law) to stop the messenger including using unflattering characterizations of believers in an attempt to "set us straight".
Believe me, it bothers folks like you a lot more that folks like me believe than it bothers folks like me that you don't.
Um, isn't an OPINION presumption by default? But it is interesting that you would assume I am being presumptuous, while being presumptuous yourself. Some "believers" just don't understand how reason works.

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post #141 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:38 AM
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Re: GOD

Indeed. Pride is the best of the sins, and I do my best to commit all of them.

I have the following questions:

Does god exist?

Did he create the entire universe? If so, he seems much too big for me to relate to. There are a probably a hundred billion billion worlds like ours in the universe. Is he worshiped on all of these? If not, why pick this one particular one for his attention? If we are so central to creation, why make creation so big?

Does the bible (or any other text) accurately represent the will of God. If so, then the horrors committed in the old testament mean that I cannot support him, no matter what the consequences. If that is not God, then what is - how do I know what parts of the bible to believe?

The teachings of Jesus seem good to me, but why to so many who claim to follow him act in such horrible ways?

How can God be omniscient and omnipotent, yet free will still exist. He knew what I would do at the time of creation, so how can he judge me for being what he created me to be?

Or is he not omniscient and omnipotent? Does that leave space for other gods?



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So the creature not only knows more about the character of the creator than the creator Himself, but also what is best.

That would be the definition of pride.
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post #142 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:45 AM
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Re: GOD

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If God is able to create all of heaven and earth, including me, it would be a VERY small thing to inspire and preserve a book for His people.

I believe the Bible IS the word of God. Do I understand it all? Not even remotely close.

As far as God being able to reach His children with out it. No problem.

Isaiah 59:[1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Ok so let's look at this Bible thing a little more shall we? So God is all powerful and all knowing, he created all of heaven and earth. But then he relies on a man made object to spread his word to all? This man made object is a book. A book which was written by man, edited by man,, translated numerous times by man and then thru the various writings, editings, and translations gets interpreted by man? If God really needed to get his word out, why rely on some earthly tool ( a book) , why not just hard wire the info into our brains at the moment of creation?
Of course in the meantime, "believers" continue to conflate God with whatever religion they adhere to. All the while ignoring the real word (and actual deeds) of God in the form of life itself to follow some book, to which they ascribe to God, but which was actually produced by man?

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post #143 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
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Re: GOD

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Indeed. Pride is the best of the sins, and I do my best to commit all of them.

I have the following questions:

Does god exist? yes

Did he create the entire universe?yes If so, he seems much too big for me to relate to. There are a probably a hundred billion billion worlds like ours in the universe. Is he worshiped on all of these? If not, why pick this one particular one for his attention? If we are so central to creation, why make creation so big?Because that is what He chose to do

Does the bible (or any other text) accurately represent the will of God. yesIf so, then the horrors committed in the old testament mean that I cannot support him, no matter what the consequences. If that is not God, then what is - how do I know what parts of the bible to believe?God is clearly represented in the ENTIRE bible

The teachings of Jesus seem good to me, but why to so many who claim to follow him act in such horrible ways? Because we are all gone out of the way, all unprofitable. There are NONE righteous, "no not one"

How can God be omniscient and omnipotent, yet free will still exist. Free with limitations. An apple tree cannot produce lemons. Man is free within the confines of his own corrupt natureHe knew what I would do at the time of creation, so how can he judge me for being what he created me to be?the truth is actually even more unpalatable than you think. I don't think you want to know the answer to this

Or is he not omniscient and omnipotent?He is Does that leave space for other gods? nope
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post #144 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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Re: GOD

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Originally Posted by Ynot View Post
Ok so let's look at this Bible thing a little more shall we? So God is all powerful and all knowing, he created all of heaven and earth. But then he relies on a man made object to spread his word to all? This man made object is a book. A book which was written by man, edited by man,, translated numerous times by man and then thru the various writings, editings, and translations gets interpreted by man? If God really needed to get his word out, why rely on some earthly tool ( a book) , why not just hard wire the info into our brains at the moment of creation?
Of course in the meantime, "believers" continue to conflate God with whatever religion they adhere to. All the while ignoring the real word (and actual deeds) of God in the form of life itself to follow some book, to which they ascribe to God, but which was actually produced by man?
The Creator of Heaven and Earth who upholds ALL things by the Word of His power cannot write and preserve a book for His people? You disagree with His method? God does things His way. He does not ask His creation for advice. He does not need anything. He is God.
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post #145 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 11:14 AM
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Re: GOD

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It was my way of starting a discussion about God. Not just any god by the way. I want to talk about the only true and living God, the one that has no beginning and no end.

Psalms 92:[2] Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

The God of the Bible
Thank you.


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post #146 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 11:54 AM
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Re: GOD

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The Creator of Heaven and Earth who upholds ALL things by the Word of His power cannot write and preserve a book for His people? You disagree with His method? God does things His way. He does not ask His creation for advice. He does not need anything. He is God.
I see you have reverted to the circular reasoning of the "believer" rather than respond to my questions. Apparently God is illiterate as "his power cannot write" his word? Which BTW are "preserved" in a book (written, edited, translated and interpreted by man. I can't seem to forget or ignore (as an act of faith) that God granted me the gift of rational thought, the gift which demands I ask "why?"

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post #147 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 12:03 PM
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Re: GOD

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He does not need anything. He is God.
He doesn't need anything except to be worshiped and obeyed, you mean? Because otherwise you are going to spend eternity being fried to a blackened crisp in hell if you don't (or so says the man who wrote the Bible). I don't believe in religion precisely because I read the Bible and studied it. I studied its history as well and I know it has been written, edited, translated, and interpreted by man. Gospels that reinforced a certain view have been included, those that did not were excluded. Are you aware there is a Gospel of Judas? Or Mary Magdallen? probably not, because the man-made religion of Christianity does not want these opposing view points known to its faithful (tithing) adherents.

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post #148 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 12:51 PM
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Re: GOD

I will not worship a god who hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not release the Israelites, then murdered the children of Egypt when Pharaoh did as he had been forced by god to do.

I have to believe that is not what God actually did, same for Job's children. I have to believe that Noah's flood is apocryphal both because there is no evidence of a great flood, and because I have to believe that God would not kill virtually every living thing on the planet, including people who had never had any contact with him or chance to change their behavior.

The problem is that when I start dismissing stories, how do I know which ones to keep, except by my own moral standards.

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post #149 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 01:06 PM
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Re: GOD

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Indeed. Pride is the best of the sins, and I do my best to commit all of them.

I have the following questions:

Does god exist?

Did he create the entire universe? If so, he seems much too big for me to relate to. There are a probably a hundred billion billion worlds like ours in the universe. Is he worshiped on all of these? If not, why pick this one particular one for his attention? If we are so central to creation, why make creation so big?

Does the bible (or any other text) accurately represent the will of God. If so, then the horrors committed in the old testament mean that I cannot support him, no matter what the consequences. If that is not God, then what is - how do I know what parts of the bible to believe?

The teachings of Jesus seem good to me, but why to so many who claim to follow him act in such horrible ways?

How can God be omniscient and omnipotent, yet free will still exist. He knew what I would do at the time of creation, so how can he judge me for being what he created me to be?

Or is he not omniscient and omnipotent? Does that leave space for other gods?
I personally do not believe the bible contains exclusively historical truth.* Jesus as portrayed in the Bible under the hand of God portrays a very personal “down to earth” connection with spirituality. I think he lived a very humble life convinced of better ways and was in all essence a very good person who walked his talk.

For those who do believe and find peace in the Biblical "God of Abraham", I think it can be a perfectly valid spiritually paved ”Dharma door" as it were.

It is anyone’s choice to either close the mind to every potential source of spiritual information or keep the mind from expanding and focusing on a single source (Bible, Koran, Vedas), but in the end, it is personal choice and not really my business or concern unless they choose to attempt to physically force it on me.

Those who try to live a life guided by Christ's teachings which, like Buddhism, requires a sort of mindful conscientiousness to live the teachings, are probably finding a peaceful existence of Christ is as was written about in the New Testament.

However, many Christians I have known and worshipped with try to live by their church's teachings, which often absolves the individual of many responsibilities as long as they claim faith. Their mind is usually somewhere else during their waking hours. While the saying “God helps those who help themselves” seems prominent, many conversations I have with people who have conversations with God share little helping themselves… more of a “take care of this for me please” approach.

Not all of course, but many… “Lord give me” often dominates the beginning of many prayers I hear. I don’t think less of them, how one talks in prayer is as diverse as the faith and levels of that embrace it, simply an awareness since my age of understanding when I was a practicing Christian and wondered what was asked of me in return.

I think the two teachings (Christ vs. church) are quite different, and suspect much of the path has been lost from the original teachings, allowing a little-effort/all-gain sort of bargain that appeals to those spiritually who may be amiss in their core.

I think that the golden rule sums up the true basis of morality and that Jesus had some good things to say. However I feel that a personality cult formed around him after he died and that people made the error of worshiping him as opposed to just listening to the teachings of a wise person who disagreed with the status-quo at the time. After all, the Gospels weren't even written till nearly a century after his death, are written in an impersonal, third person perspective in my understanding as I've read them (and continue to as a spiritual freelancer along with the Koran... both quite fascinating really), and often reference the era as being of the distant past. Even the church couldn't decide who Jesus was for the first 300 years, it seems ego driven self-rewarding to claim after so many translations to know* and understand* better than those who lived in the time.

The essence of being in the right presence in everyday life offers far greater spirituality for me than any doctrinal edict.

A powerful and omnipotent God would understand... and if not, a choice has been made by us both.
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post #150 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 01:13 PM
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Re: GOD

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OK. You sit down and talk to him just as you would talk to a person who was sitting there in the room with you.
Does he ever reply? In other words, do you sometimes have a two-way conversation?
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