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post #106 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 09:43 PM
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Re: GOD

@UMP - was your question really asking us if we believe in God? If not, can you give us more info on what you're asking?


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post #107 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 09:46 PM
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Re: GOD

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Assuming your assumption...Do they have a right? There's not enough information to answer. Otherwise yes they probably do have the free will to question Him...and suffer any consequences.
Why does this version of god have to be a ****? Seriously? Why do people believe that god is so vengeful and so proud that he were to smite people who question what other humans tell them?
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post #108 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 09:55 PM
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Re: GOD

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Why does this version of god have to be a ****? Seriously? Why do people believe that god is so vengeful and so proud that he were to smite people who question what other humans tell them?
I don't know and don't really understand your question, because I don't know what "****" meant. I was answering the op's question which asked us to assume certain facts.

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post #109 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 03:02 AM
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Re: GOD

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Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
Don't misconstrue what I said. I didn't say people would act like sociopaths (really a wrong choice of words) if the didn't believe in God. I'm saying they act like it despite believing in God. Not saying that if you have 10 people, all of them will do bad stuff to you. But all it would take is a normal 5-6 to do serious damage. If you doubt folks will kick the crap out of each other when free of authority, why do you think the word "curfew" was invented. Your famous atheist was probably picking somebody's pocket when answering their question.
I'm sure you're real comfortable with you daughter's free thinking, so long as it congruent with yours.
I was simply stating my opinion. There are laws in place and I like many atheists choose to follow laws but not because of a fear of god. I have a conscience. I have to live with my choices every single day.

In regards to my daughter. My parents and most of my extended family is Catholic, we have Jewish people on my husband's side, the rest are spiritual or religious in some way. We get invited to baptisms, confirmations, weddings, funerals where there is plenty of preaching about how god is good, how now the dead are with him etc etc We attend when invited. I can act in a civil manner, amazing right?

I am a vegetarian. My daughter and husband are not. They are free to be their own selves, I didn't bring my daughter to this world to be an extension of me. She has decided that while she doesn't like the fact that animals had to die so she could eat them, they taste too delicious. I am cool with that. If she ever wants to know about the horrors of factory farming I have plenty of information I could share. But I won't do so until and unless she asks.

We go to visit family in nyc often and we encounter people begging for money. Sometimes I give them money and because I have a habit of only carrying only credit cards often times I can only offer a smile and a good morning. They are human beings that deserve to be acknowledged. I am not their god to judge why they are homeless or how they will spend any money I share. It is a gift and they do as they please with it. Children notice what we do. I need not to tell my daughter what she should do.
Needless to say I've failed many times but I hold myself fully accountable. No devil made me do it here. She knows that when a mistake is made first thing is to take full responsibility and next is to repair the damage done. It is the compassionate thing to do. No gods needed. Also, occasionally I will tell those that I help (very very rarely cause I do fear for my safety) that I do not believe in a god when they almost always tell me "god bless you". They look in horror and ask me not to follow the devil (as if! The devil is an imaginary figure made up by religion) or then add the condescending "I will pray for you." Lol
None has returned my money or returned whatever they received from me though... that is okay with me, they do not have to share my beliefs to continue to get me to treat them with kindness. My empathy and compassion is not tied to a shared belief in the right god.

All the above just my thoughts. I do get where the religious are coming from, I am an atheist because I have read the bible, because I have attended sunday school, because I attended a christian church and a Catholic church during most of my childhood. I lived in a country where the official religion is Catholicism.
I imagine how difficult and painful it would be to give up one's deeply held beliefs. I didn't have to go through that process as I just never believed in mythical creatures ruling the world, saints, angels, ghosts, a horned red man with a pithfork.
If it makes someone happy to believe in a god and they are convinced they believe in the one right god and this brings them joy and peace, fantastic. Just pretty please do not assume those who do not are wild animals waiting to do evil and unable to control ourselves and incapable of being super nice. And also please watch what you are saying very carefully beause you are essentially suggesting that you are special, it sounds pretty arrogant and as an adult I can take it but nobody better make my daughter feel like she is less than just because she isn't a believer. I know I am fortunate to be alive and healthy. I really also do not care for a reward after I die. I'll take any reward now. And I already do. I do not live for an after life. And if there is a god who will happily throw me in hell solely because I failed to belive in it, well thanks. My nightmare would be to spend eternity with such god or its followers. No matter what apparently because my husband is an atheist too we both shall spend eternity together somewhere. And I wouldn't want it any other way.
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post #110 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 07:23 AM
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Re: GOD

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I believe in me.
Hear, hear. Ive always said my church is the church of lucy999.
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post #111 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 07:48 AM
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Re: GOD

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Let's say there is God. Not just a God but The GOD, only one, the "I AM."

Let's call Him the creator of heaven and earth who upholds ALL things by the word of His power.

If this "I AM" created all of humanity and everything that exists from nothing, does the creation have the right to question Him?

If so, why?
Let's say we have no faith. We can only believe what has been written and passed down. Do we believe? Do we disregard what others have written? I guess it depends on hope. I choose not to place my hope in humans. They are imperfect. Either I have no hope, or I have hope in something I cannot explain, nor can I justify.

Below is where you will find your answers. Whether you believe or not, doesn't matter.

Quote:
1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
2
And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
3
His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
4
And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
5
And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
13
And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
14
And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
15
And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
16
While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
17
While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
18
While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
19
And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
20
Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
21
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
22
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Job was questioned for days by "wise" men. He passed their tests. He did not speak against God. And finally, God spoke to Job in answer to why he was made to suffer all these things. Below is God's answer. Again, you don't have to believe anything. It's an incredible story. It is one answer to your question.

Quote:
1
Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8
Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9
When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10
And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11
And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12
Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14
It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15
And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16
Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17
Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18
Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19
Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20
That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21
Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22
Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23
Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24
By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25
Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26
To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27
To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28
Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29
Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30
The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31
Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32
Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33
Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34
Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35
Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
36
Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37
Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38
When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39
Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40
When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41
Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.



1
Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?
2
Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?
3
They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.
4
Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them.
5
Who hath sent out the wild ass free? or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass?
6
Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings.
7
He scorneth the multitude of the city, neither regardeth he the crying of the driver.
8
The range of the mountains is his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing.
9
Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
10
Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
11
Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?
12
Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?
13
Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the pea****s? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?
14
Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust,
15
And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.
16
She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without fear;
17
Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.
18
What time she lifteth up herself on high, she scorneth the horse and his rider.
19
Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder?
20
Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils is terrible.
21
He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in his strength: he goeth on to meet the armed men.
22
He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword.
23
The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield.
24
He swalloweth the ground with fierceness and rage: neither believeth he that it is the sound of the trumpet.
25
He saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and he smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.
26
Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south?
27
Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?
28
She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and the strong place.
29
From thence she seeketh the prey, and her eyes behold afar off.
30
Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain are, there is she.



1
Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2
Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
3
Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
4
Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
5
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
6
Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
7
Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
8
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
9
Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
10
Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
11
Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
12
Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
13
Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
14
Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
15
Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16
Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17
He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18
His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19
He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20
Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21
He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22
The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23
Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24
He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.



1
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2
Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3
Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
4
Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
5
Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
6
Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
7
Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
8
Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
9
Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
10
None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
11
Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12
I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
13
Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
14
Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
15
His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16
One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17
They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18
By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19
Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20
Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21
His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
22
In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
23
The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
24
His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
25
When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
26
The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
27
He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
28
The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
29
Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
30
Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31
He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32
He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
33
Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
34
He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.


Job, being humbled, answered.


Quote:
1
Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2
I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3
Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4
Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.


Take it for what it's worth. It's from the bible. It was written down by human beings. I'm not intending to convert or deny. I simply thought it might answer your question.

"I'm significant!! Screamed the dust speck." - Bill Watterson

"And this, too, shall pass away."
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post #112 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 10:01 AM
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Re: GOD

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One final thought that is perhaps more relevant to the thread. I found this quote but I am not sure who is its author. It pretty much sums up how I feel about questioning god if we humans are indeed one of his precious creations: "If I am wrong and there is a Judeo/christian god, the day of my death will truly be judgment day. I do herebt affirm that I will give him a chance to account for his deeds before I pass judgment upon him."
With an all powerful being such as god, with the ability to create anything he wanted at all, he chose to create men who would make mistakes (sometimes terrible ones) and who could potentially suffer such horrible indescribable pain both physical (think infants with cancer or other chronic conditions) and mental (schizophrenia, personality disorders, dementia etc). Unbelievable. And also, didn't he create the devil? What a loving, kind god indeed. I mean it has been said that without darkness we wouldn't appreciate light, but seriously couldn't this god have thought of just some milder forms of pain? Ugh. I just cannot even...

Ultimately I do not care to change anyone's mind. I've said it before, my daughter is being raised as a freethinker. At 8 years old she already came to the conclusion that there is no santa, no easter bunny, no monsters under her bed, no ghosts...and yet she is capable of being kind and loving. She knows the large majority of her peers believe in santa and in god. She knows to let them believe if it makes them happy. She would never tell them that unless they all follow her path, they will "go to hell and god bless their little heart." Nope. She knows compassion. It is not her job nor mine to get others to think and question what they've been told to believe. She is indeed free to ask questions and to form her own opinion. And I shall stay out of her way should she decide to belive in whatever god of her choice. Religious people are free (at least in America) to preach, to attend church, to wear a cross, even try to shape the law based on their beliefs etc etc. Fantastic. I only expect them to extend the same respect and not try to indoctrinate my child. Let's not forget we are all born atheist and then generally go on to believe in whatever god our family of origin believes.
I would find that quote amusing if it wasnt so serious. Believe me, you wont be questioning God.
I have a Christian friend who was bought up in a buddhist family, and many muslims are converting all the time in the middle east and elsewhere. Christians are made up of many from other religions, and many former atheists as well. Another friends husband who is 70 was very anti God and anti religion. He has converted as well about 2-3 years ago.

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post #113 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 10:29 AM
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Re: GOD

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I would find that quote amusing if it wasnt so serious. Believe me, you wont be questioning God.
Yeah no worries. I never questioned Santa for not bringing me a pony.
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post #114 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 11:15 AM
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Re: GOD

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Yeah no worries. I never questioned Santa for not bringing me a pony.
You should be worried. No one can avoid death.
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post #115 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 11:15 AM
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Re: GOD

Say there is a master being who can observe their creation, who thinks, who displays and acts on an essence like creation and who communicates with others. This supreme being also has a choice to be satisfied with his creation and could reward them or they could be unhappy with that creation and punish them. If the decision to punish comes, then they can choose to change their mind and forgive. They could communicate guidelines to this creation at some point, then decide to change or update the laws at a later time. They might want their creation to honor or worship them and in turn offer a reward to them for it.

From the above, such a being displays all the marks of conditioning, and being so cannot be a known absolute.

With only 31,102 verses written about such an infinite being, it would require a level of great humility, as claiming to know so little about so much, yet defining there was only a singular source for all salvation available would claim our knowing knows better than the supreme themselves.

Thus we have conditioned ourselves to believe we know more than to simply follow... and as what @Itwasjustafantasy shared, we are truly all born without any faith or there would not be required rituals to ensure acceptance of passage to the next realm at some stage after birth.

The choice of freewill is a wonderful thing but cannot be dictated for or against and still have it... and one cannot live with freewill and fear in the same belief.

Peace be with you...


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post #116 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 11:49 AM
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Re: GOD

Why is it that I often feel that those who feel the need to witness all the time are really just trying to convince themselves that what they believe is true?

At the center of every moMEnt of my life is ME!
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post #117 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 12:13 PM
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Re: GOD

Here's probably the most intrigued and perplexed I am over "debunking" one or more people seeing ghost, close up alien spacecraft and the like.

Jim and Bob saw a semi transparent man dressed in a Army uniform that disappeared before their eyes. They imagined it, have a mental problem, are lying, mass hysteria, etc. At any rate, science has proven you can't believe your eyes. On the way home, they saw Billy Smith kill Tom Gardner in cold blood. Their eye witness testimony is absolute evidence that Billy Smith is the murderer.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #118 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-05-2017, 12:34 AM
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Re: GOD

And what did God say to Job's sons and daughters to explain why he had let them die to make a point to Satan?
uhtred is offline  
post #119 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-05-2017, 03:27 AM
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Re: GOD

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Originally Posted by Ynot View Post
Why is it that I often feel that those who feel the need to witness all the time are really just trying to convince themselves that what they believe is true?
You are very wrong.
In my case no. Nor in the case of those Christiana I know. We want everyone to be saved and we want everyone to know the truth. If I doubted it was true I wouldn't have followed Jesus Christ for 40 years.
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post #120 of 386 (permalink) Old 02-05-2017, 03:28 AM
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Re: GOD

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And what did God say to Job's sons and daughters to explain why he had let them die to make a point to Satan?
Ask Him.
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