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post #31 of 385 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 07:46 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

There seems to be some dispute on how old cyanobaceria are, clearly > 2.1GY, probably > 2.4GY, and some evidence to 3.5GY (disputed). Athe anaerobic bacteria you mention are also very simple.

Doesn't the existence or more complex life later in the earth's history show that it can develop, or are you looking for a laboratory experiment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._col...ion_experiment
seems to indicate the development of a new trait, not the loss of an old one.




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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
the earliest life were anaerobes. they came about(supposedly) a billion years before cyanobacteria. and truth be told, we have no idea what the early oxygen producers actually looked like, genetically, we just know that they must have produced a lot of oxygen for a very long time.

as for loss of function being the only method, i never said it would be impossible for a gain in function resulting from mutation. i have said that we have never actually seen it. its like the holy grail of the theory of evolution. we can show loss of function mutations driving adaptation, and in turn, evolution, all day long. a gain in function? still elusive.


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post #32 of 385 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:20 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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https://www.theguardian.com/science/...etic-life-form

Dangerous though, people are saying it could escape and cause havoc / be used as biological weapons. Can also cure cancer. Or herald the beginning of a zombie apocalypse, or turn this planet into a planet of the apes.
They didn't exactly create life from what is not living. But if they did or do, that would more or less prove that life can be created. And whose to say that similar processes used to create cells that divide and multiple couldn't be used to create a dog without going through the long and pesky process of evolution.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #33 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 07:17 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
i figured this might be an interesting thread. so, what is the evidence you have seen for evolution, and what is the evidence you have seen for creation?

i only ask one thing, please do not derail this thread into bashing people with different views. if you think a particular way of interpreting a piece of information is deluded or idiotic, poke holes in the argument rather than attack the person.
i would like to see fairly objective reasoning.

anyway, anything that you can think of that supports either creation or evolution, or refutes either of them. scientific discoveries, mathematics, genetics, etc. share the evidence and share why you believe it supports or refutes a either side.

i would love to hear your thoughts.
The consilience of evidence (over 1.3 million peer reviewed articles) spanning the last 200 years supports the theory of evolution of life on this planet over the last 3.8 billion years. This is covered by a multitude of disciplines in biology, geology, chemistry and yes even mathematics (mainly probabilities). We even have cancer as a verification of many of these hypothesis to support the theory - "survival of the fitter".

However intelligent design is something that is also accepted with a great deal of direct scientific data. It is one where the researcher him or herself is the designer of the new species. One where man (non gender specific) is god and has the capacity to transform one species of bacteria to another with the inclusion of novel genes to that organism. I myself have transgenically modified Danio rerio. This may not have created a new species but is significantly different from the wild type (naturally evolved form).

However god and the creation are based on non-evidence and non-converging mythologies. It is not practical to attempt to fit science into a religious belief system since they use very different methods of verification. Do I think god is real? He is real in that if more than one person believes there is a god, he is real - a collective subjectivism. However, there is no need to attempt to find empirical objective evidence for god, just accept that he is real in the belief system that you are part of and that is it. I think religious groups play an important role in humanity for some people. After all H sapiens survival (out of Africa and to the ends of the earth) depended upon our tribal collectivism. Whatever works for you, is what is worth believing.
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post #34 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 10:19 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

Can the long process of evolution be sped up dramatically by man, for example through genetic engineering?

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #35 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 01:27 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Can the long process of evolution be sped up dramatically by man, for example through genetic engineering?
Genetic engineering does not always result in organisms that are better fits (survival of the fitter). They are designed for a purpose; in a research lab the purpose is data collection. Evolution is a random process that results in karyotypes that are better fits into their environment (survival of the fitter). The best way to dramatize process by which evolution can be sped up is seen in medicine. Cancers are often made up of a heterogenous population of cells. Sometimes, one of the population of cells can have a random mutation that has the potential for chemotherapeutic resistance. When the chemotherapy is applied, all but that population perishes leaving the survival of the fitter to take the lead role in the tumor.
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post #36 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 07:11 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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I had never really read G. K. Chesterton until this year--and I've been voraciously reading his works since I started in early January. I think there is a great quote on this subject from Chesterton which sums up exactly how I've felt about evolution since I was a kid:

"If evolution simply means that a positive thing called an ape turned very slowly into a positive thing called a man, then it is stingless for the most orthodox; for a personal God might just as well do things slowly as quickly, especially if, like the Christian God, he were outside time. But if it means anything more, it means that there is no such thing as an ape to change, and no such thing as a man for him to change into. It means that there is no such thing as a thing. At best, there is only one thing, and that is a flux of everything and anything. This is an attack not upon the faith, but upon the mind; you cannot think if there are no things to think about."
~G.K. Chesterton: "Orthodoxy."
Bravo, Sir!
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post #37 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 08:28 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

To answer OP:

I'll go with the Genesis account.

"In the Beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Simplistic and foolish, one may say?

1 Corinthians 1:
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
[28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
[29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.


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post #38 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 10:00 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

I think intelligent selection by humans has already sped things up. Genetic engineering will probably make a much larger difference when we understand more about how DNA relates to physical characteristics.

At that point it isn't really "evolution", since there is no longer random mutation or natural selection. It will likely result in rapid changes and development of new creatures - targeted at what humans want.

Genetic engineering of humans has all sorts of potential ethical issues.

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Can the long process of evolution be sped up dramatically by man, for example through genetic engineering?
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post #39 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 11:51 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

Evidence for evolution- dinosaur bones, artificats, ruins of old civiliations, and tons of other evidence that exists in museums all over the world.

Evidence for creation- none.

End of story.
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post #40 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 12:57 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
i figured this might be an interesting thread. so, what is the evidence you have seen for evolution, and what is the evidence you have seen for creation?

i only ask one thing, please do not derail this thread into bashing people with different views. if you think a particular way of interpreting a piece of information is deluded or idiotic, poke holes in the argument rather than attack the person.
i would like to see fairly objective reasoning.

anyway, anything that you can think of that supports either creation or evolution, or refutes either of them. scientific discoveries, mathematics, genetics, etc. share the evidence and share why you believe it supports or refutes a either side.

i would love to hear your thoughts.
The following might be of interest to you.
At 10:10 into the video he talks about evolution, DNA and Richard Dawkins.



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post #41 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 01:55 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

Ugh!

I'm not conversant on world religions but I am unaware of ANY other religion that actively seeks to disprove science. This is why Christians really get on my nerves!

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post #42 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 02:07 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Evidence for evolution- dinosaur bones, artificats, ruins of old civiliations, and tons of other evidence that exists in museums all over the world.
In all respect, I'd remove "ruins of old civilizations" off your list. Evolution is not measured on that short of a time scale for humans. I'd replace it with "DNA testing" and a science tabbed "embryology", which is the study of embryos. Human embryos still have slits for gills that are very similar to those found on fish embryos.
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post #43 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 02:07 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Ugh!

I'm not conversant on world religions but I am unaware of ANY other religion that actively seeks to disprove science. This is why Christians really get on my nerves!
I don't think you have to worry about anyone getting on your nerves, because there is no argument. These sorts of arguments are non-starters because they use totally different standards to reach their conclusion. If both of these arguments used the same standards of testing aims associated with a hypothesis then we can debate the merits and validity of results and what they mean. But, until then, folks who want to believe creation stories are fine with me, I'm not interested in getting people to give up their beliefs. However, if they want to debate evolution v creation they need to supply the same form of scientific methodology to have that debate.

As it stands we evolved as a tribal species and often religion can be a powerful tribal cohesive subjective 'force'. As many in society move away from religion, we we move toward other subjective entities - liberalism, conservatism, socialism, bass players, etc...
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post #44 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 02:15 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

True science starts with ignorance, "we don't know thus we seek after that which we do not know". We do not fall back into the trap of "since we don't completely understand everything, it must be god". As an example, demon possession described in the bible may well have been what we might see as a mental illness. So rather than seeking to have god cast out the demon, we see this as technical issue for which we prescribe medication. Someone took the time to seek after that which we use to fall back into the dogmatic pose and replaced it with understanding the technical aspects of the situation.
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post #45 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
Ugh!

I'm not conversant on world religions but I am unaware of ANY other religion that actively seeks to disprove science. This is why Christians really get on my nerves!
You should here what some of the Islamic statements about western science...

Besides that, most Christians don't try to disprove science. They draw different conclusions from observational science.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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