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post #46 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 05:38 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
You should here what some of the Islamic statements about western science...
Are these statements concerning alternative theories that contradict science and support a specific theological genesis story?



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Besides that, most Christians don't try to disprove science. They draw different conclusions from observational science.

Oh please, don't try to make intelligent design anything other than taking science and trying to retrofit conclusions to previous beliefs. You previously believed the genesis story, from there you cherry picked theories that don't challenge your genesis story.

You started from a "known" and search for ways to prove it. Thus, it is not a case of different conclusions, it is a case of head in sand, fingers in ears, eyes tightly closed... see @Ikaika post below

I'm perfectly fine with any belief system! I don't care what brand of belief system you adhere to. But the second your belief system attempts to ignore facts, discredit entire scientific fields of study, and insist your beliefs be given equal shelf space with real science...we're going to have a problem and rightfully so because we do not live in a theocracy.


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True science starts with ignorance, "we don't know thus we seek after that which we do not know".



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post #47 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 08:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Are these statements concerning alternative theories that contradict science and support a specific theological genesis story?






Oh please, don't try to make intelligent design anything other than taking science and trying to retrofit conclusions to previous beliefs. You previously believed the genesis story, from there you cherry picked theories that don't challenge your genesis story.

You started from a "known" and search for ways to prove it. Thus, it is not a case of different conclusions, it is a case of head in sand, fingers in ears, eyes tightly closed... see @Ikaika post below

I'm perfectly fine with any belief system! I don't care what brand of belief system you adhere to. But the second your belief system attempts to ignore facts, discredit entire scientific fields of study, and insist your beliefs be given equal shelf space with real science...we're going to have a problem and rightfully so because we do not live in a theocracy.
I was a devout atheist until I studied science. Then I believed in a creator. I would say that the best word to describe my belief system back then was pagan deism. I converted to a Christian church because it accepted my pagan ass.

So please spare me the bull**** about how I am pushing a religion. I am asking the different ways people interpret the available evidence, for one reason: to see if there is perspective and/or evidence that I have not considered. Even Richard Dawking admits that intelligent design would explain our current observations.

If you have nothing to add in regards to the exchange of information and reasoned perspective, please move along.

As for what the Muslims say, you should read and listen to them sometime.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #48 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 09:01 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
Can the long process of evolution be sped up dramatically by man, for example through genetic engineering?
That is actually an interesting question.

As far as I know, random mutogenisis is the only thing that has ever been used to demonitrate evolution in action. Which makes sense. If we are to believe that random mutations drive evolution, then agents that drive random mutations should demonstrate it.

So far, we have seen rapid adaptations resulting from loss of function mutations.

No gain in functions yet.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #49 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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To answer OP:

I'll go with the Genesis account.

"In the Beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Simplistic and foolish, one may say?

1 Corinthians 1:
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
[28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
[29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.

This is not observable science. Nothing to test. I cannot take an explanation of an observable phenomenon on faith.

I take nothing in the bible to be evidence of intelligent design.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #50 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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The following might be of interest to you.
At 10:10 into the video he talks about evolution, DNA and Richard Dawkins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pItJ-iclUaA
I have seen many such videos. They always seem to me to make a tremendous mess out of some compelling arguments by throwing so many BS statements. Like God obviously exists because we exist. Like wtf?

It does make a good point about codes, information and language though. Would have been better without presenting it as if it were proof.

The fact that we have never seen coded information arise from a system influenced by entropy should be evidence enough without being touted as proof.

Chiral molecules really dont qualify as coded information.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #51 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 09:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by Ikaika View Post
The consilience of evidence (over 1.3 million peer reviewed articles) spanning the last 200 years supports the theory of evolution of life on this planet over the last 3.8 billion years. This is covered by a multitude of disciplines in biology, geology, chemistry and yes even mathematics (mainly probabilities). We even have cancer as a verification of many of these hypothesis to support the theory - "survival of the fitter".

However intelligent design is something that is also accepted with a great deal of direct scientific data. It is one where the researcher him or herself is the designer of the new species. One where man (non gender specific) is god and has the capacity to transform one species of bacteria to another with the inclusion of novel genes to that organism. I myself have transgenically modified Danio rerio. This may not have created a new species but is significantly different from the wild type (naturally evolved form).

However god and the creation are based on non-evidence and non-converging mythologies. It is not practical to attempt to fit science into a religious belief system since they use very different methods of verification. Do I think god is real? He is real in that if more than one person believes there is a god, he is real - a collective subjectivism. However, there is no need to attempt to find empirical objective evidence for god, just accept that he is real in the belief system that you are part of and that is it. I think religious groups play an important role in humanity for some people. After all H sapiens survival (out of Africa and to the ends of the earth) depended upon our tribal collectivism. Whatever works for you, is what is worth believing.
I don't get it. Whenever I bring up intelligent design, most people start talking g about religion. Is Dawking the only one willing to consider a case where an advanced intelligent being created the first life form on earth, out of respect for the evidence found in our observable world?

Of course, the problem always goes back farther and farther. Who created the creator?

By the way, the evidence that you pointed to that supports evolution was basically the same as the Christians used to say three hundred years ago. "God exists because every respectable person agrees so". The number of peer reviewed papers means nothing to me.

Knowing you, you should be able to point out plenty of papers that support the theory of evolution, as could i. The question I have for you is this: can you find anything that refutes intelligent design? I'm sure you are aware of the issues that arise, mathematically speaking, with the abiotic generation of a genetic code, as with the generation new information.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #52 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-05-2017, 12:16 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

For something to be called science, it needs to make predictions that can potentially be disproved by experiment.

Evolution fits this: Evidence of a species changing to be better adapted for a new environment BEFORE the environment changed more often that would be statistically likely. Evidence of the appearance of a new species that can be show to not be related to earlier species. These tests will have to rely on statistics because the fossil record is so fragmentary, but they are possible.

How would this work for intelligent design. What would be evidence that intelligent design did not happen?

How does intelligent design fit with the extinction of various groups of species. I'm not talking massive extincition events, but just the gradual disappearance of some species? If they were intelligently designed, how did that happen?
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post #53 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-05-2017, 01:00 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
I don't get it. Whenever I bring up intelligent design, most people start talking g about religion. Is Dawking the only one willing to consider a case where an advanced intelligent being created the first life form on earth, out of respect for the evidence found in our observable world?

Of course, the problem always goes back farther and farther. Who created the creator?

By the way, the evidence that you pointed to that supports evolution was basically the same as the Christians used to say three hundred years ago. "God exists because every respectable person agrees so". The number of peer reviewed papers means nothing to me.

Knowing you, you should be able to point out plenty of papers that support the theory of evolution, as could i. The question I have for you is this: can you find anything that refutes intelligent design? I'm sure you are aware of the issues that arise, mathematically speaking, with the abiotic generation of a genetic code, as with the generation new information.
Intelligent design exist in the lab, where researchers are the gods that can manipulate the organisms phenotype. And, in the case of simple organisms (bacteria), researchers (gods) can transform the bacteria to a new species. So, in terms of intelligent design, we are the gods. As for our species (the gods of this planet) we are but the result of billions of years of random mutations. Some of those mutation resulted in fatal hits (hence we never get to see those species), some resulted in phenotypes that are less suited for the environment, while others resulted in better fit phenotypes. This last one was able to reproduce and more phenotype branches started the process over and over. Even if you wanted to assume some god went though and continues to go through this random chance mutations, it would be hard to test for this direct manipulation. Whereas we know some of the ways in which these chance mutations take place. We also have recorded methodology for carrying out our own intelligent design in the labs.

So, your question is a non-starter since there is simply no way to test for a "manipulator", a designer. Mathematical equations are nothing more than probabilities. And, yes, if we could go back some 3.9 Billion years ago and start with RNA (the supposed organic molecule that started it all) and allowed random processes to go forward, it is likely that H sapiens would not be part of the equation. There would likely be other evolved set of species. So, yes, running the mathematical equations comes up with different probabilities each time. This does not refute evolution, to the contrary it makes the argument far more credible. We are but a random chance and that is it.

Last edited by Ikaika; 03-05-2017 at 07:59 AM.
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post #54 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-05-2017, 01:15 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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For something to be called science, it needs to make predictions that can potentially be disproved by experiment.

Evolution fits this: Evidence of a species changing to be better adapted for a new environment BEFORE the environment changed more often that would be statistically likely. Evidence of the appearance of a new species that can be show to not be related to earlier species. These tests will have to rely on statistics because the fossil record is so fragmentary, but they are possible.

How would this work for intelligent design. What would be evidence that intelligent design did not happen?

How does intelligent design fit with the extinction of various groups of species. I'm not talking massive extincition events, but just the gradual disappearance of some species? If they were intelligently designed, how did that happen?
If a scientist created a novel new species of creature that was capable of evolving new species in its progeny, then it would simply be able to evolve new species. There is no need for the scientist to ensure that every species that was produced in its lineage persisted to eternity in order for the scientist to create the original creature to begin with.

Why must an intelligent designer protect everything from extinction? If we can imagine a scientist doing it, why not any other intelligent designer?

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #55 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-05-2017, 04:06 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
I don't get it. Whenever I bring up intelligent design, most people start talking g about religion. Is Dawking the only one willing to consider a case where an advanced intelligent being created the first life form on earth, out of respect for the evidence found in our observable world?

Of course, the problem always goes back farther and farther. Who created the creator?
If you want to discuss how life started on Earth you would have to discuss abiogenesis/origins of life not the Theory of Evolution. Evolution only explains the speciation we see in nature through combination of parental and maternal DNA, random mutations in DNA/RNA, addition/loss of DNA/RNA and the viability of the organism in it's environment not the origins of life. It only describes the mechanism of an observed phenomenon, not how the mechanism came about.

We as humankind don't know how life started. Was it a deity, an alien, a comet or meteorite that contained organic material (and how did that come about) or just a random "lucky" event that led to the existence of life? We don't know, we just have different hypotheses.

To say that there is no possibility of a creator is dishonest. To claim that there is evidence for a creator is dishonest too, because there isn't. We simply don't know and we can only explore the possibilities by observation and experimentation.


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post #56 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-05-2017, 05:17 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

I am a Catholic with a PhD. I believe in evolution and that the Bible was not written in a literal manner that would be typical of twenty-first century USA but in a way that would best illustrate a developing faith and spiritual understanding. Hopefully, I will not burn in hell for that (I know Diana7 is concerned, which is kind).
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post #57 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-05-2017, 11:46 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

The biggest problem with intelligent design theory is that you can't just use the approach, if we cant it explain something or the math probabilities are too astronomical then by default it must be by design by some creator. As in any scientific procedure you have to show evidence of something rather than the default of it must be because we can't explain it. This is drawing a conclusion without evidence. So, the real problem for ID or creation is that you have to have proof of a 'designer' or 'creator' rather than using this is a default conclusion without evidence.
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post #58 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-05-2017, 12:36 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

What could disprove intelligent design?

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
If a scientist created a novel new species of creature that was capable of evolving new species in its progeny, then it would simply be able to evolve new species. There is no need for the scientist to ensure that every species that was produced in its lineage persisted to eternity in order for the scientist to create the original creature to begin with.

Why must an intelligent designer protect everything from extinction? If we can imagine a scientist doing it, why not any other intelligent designer?
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post #59 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-06-2017, 07:55 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
This is not observable science. Nothing to test. I cannot take an explanation of an observable phenomenon on faith.

I take nothing in the bible to be evidence of intelligent design.
Ok,
Then look at your hands. You can make them do just about anything with just a thought.
How miraculous!
That's enough evidence for me. Call me a fool, call me stupid, you can even call me Shirley, yet my answer remains the same.
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post #60 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-06-2017, 09:35 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

But look at the vestigial front legs on whales. Or the rather questionable design of human reproduction. If life was designed, some of it was done by the B team.



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Ok,
Then look at your hands. You can make them do just about anything with just a thought.
How miraculous!
That's enough evidence for me. Call me a fool, call me stupid, you can even call me Shirley, yet my answer remains the same.
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