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post #61 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-06-2017, 10:25 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
But look at the vestigial front legs on whales. Or the rather questionable design of human reproduction. If life was designed, some of it was done by the B team.
Uniqueness and quirky design is simply showing the designers personality.
We may see something that in our mind is questionable, yet in God's mind it is beautiful.
My mentally handicapped daughter is a good example. She is 22 yet has the mind of a 5 year old. In Hilters' mind, she is a weak mistake and should be disposed of. Living with her day in and day out I see and hear things that she utters that are so wise, so concise that I cannot help but see God through His creation of her.

God's ways are different than our ways. Would man have the Savior of the world be born in a manger? Would man have the King of Kings ride up to His temple in a borrowed donkey?

Romans 11
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Isaiah 55:
[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

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post #62 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-06-2017, 10:39 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

Darwin's theory of gradualism has already been disproven and the theory of "punctuated equilibrium" is now the accepted theory in biological circles.
Why disproven? Because the fossil record shows periods of relatively little change, marked by periods of relatively fast change (presumably because climate changes force the adaptation relatively quickly), rather than the gradual changes insinuated by Darwin.

Steven J. Gould is an biological evolutionist that should be read on the subject.

I think if one looks at the characteristics that have to be true of our planet, solar system, etc.--- just for life to even be possible...... It's obvious to me that there is a creator.

Mars sized object striking our planet early in formation and knocking it exactly 23.5 degrees and creating the moon, and enriching the crust with heavy metals that should have sank into the core due to density--- in the same stroke? Jupiter sized planet at just the right distance to exert enough gravity to clear out all the trash from whacking our planet?
Invisible force field (Van Allen Belts) deflecting the solar wind and allowing an atmosphere?
Position outside the arms of the Milky Way to prevent cosmic, gamma, and x-rays from making life impossible, and allowing us to see the heavens?

I could go on.

My Creator has no bounds of time or space. A second is endless for Him. Could man have been created by evolution? I think it's possible. Could life have been possible without a creator? Well, even in a laboratory, even the simplest single cell has never been created from nonliving materials.

I believe in God, and I'm a creationist. I also believe that evolution is real, and it's a possible explanation of how God brought about humans.
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post #63 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-06-2017, 02:13 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by UMP View Post
Uniqueness and quirky design is simply showing the designers personality.
We may see something that in our mind is questionable, yet in God's mind it is beautiful.
My mentally handicapped daughter is a good example. She is 22 yet has the mind of a 5 year old. In Hilters' mind, she is a weak mistake and should be disposed of. Living with her day in and day out I see and hear things that she utters that are so wise, so concise that I cannot help but see God through His creation of her.

God's ways are different than our ways. Would man have the Savior of the world be born in a manger? Would man have the King of Kings ride up to His temple in a borrowed donkey?

Romans 11
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Isaiah 55:
[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
We can all agree with that.

What we are discussing is whether sat down at a work bench and hammered things out within the confines of the material world and then explained it literally in the Bible in line with the lingusitics of modern day USA or not.
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post #64 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-06-2017, 02:15 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by Evinrude58 View Post
Darwin's theory of gradualism has already been disproven and the theory of "punctuated equilibrium" is now the accepted theory in biological circles.
Why disproven? Because the fossil record shows periods of relatively little change, marked by periods of relatively fast change (presumably because climate changes force the adaptation relatively quickly), rather than the gradual changes insinuated by Darwin.

Steven J. Gould is an biological evolutionist that should be read on the subject.

I think if one looks at the characteristics that have to be true of our planet, solar system, etc.--- just for life to even be possible...... It's obvious to me that there is a creator.

Mars sized object striking our planet early in formation and knocking it exactly 23.5 degrees and creating the moon, and enriching the crust with heavy metals that should have sank into the core due to density--- in the same stroke? Jupiter sized planet at just the right distance to exert enough gravity to clear out all the trash from whacking our planet?
Invisible force field (Van Allen Belts) deflecting the solar wind and allowing an atmosphere?
Position outside the arms of the Milky Way to prevent cosmic, gamma, and x-rays from making life impossible, and allowing us to see the heavens?

I could go on.

My Creator has no bounds of time or space. A second is endless for Him. Could man have been created by evolution? I think it's possible. Could life have been possible without a creator? Well, even in a laboratory, even the simplest single cell has never been created from nonliving materials.

I believe in God, and I'm a creationist. I also believe that evolution is real, and it's a possible explanation of how God brought about humans.
Of course Darwin's model has been disproven. It is a part of science and science is not reality, but a model of reality that is subject to refution and refinement. It is odd that God has no bounds of space or time, yet apparently sat down at a work bench on a cloud and did everything, rather than being the very essence of reality rather than the material world.
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post #65 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 08:35 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by Mr The Other View Post
We can all agree with that.

What we are discussing is whether sat down at a work bench and hammered things out within the confines of the material world and then explained it literally in the Bible in line with the lingusitics of modern day USA or not.

I think all you need is chapter one, verse one.


Genesis 1:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


Actually, He could have done the whole thing in a day or a couple seconds.


Jeremiah 32
[17] Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:


The question is why in this way? I don't know. However, I do know one thing; God does what He wants, when He wants, and how He wants.


Isaiah 46:
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
[11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Last edited by UMP; 03-07-2017 at 09:07 AM.
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post #66 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 09:46 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

We don't necessarily agree. A significant number of people, including myself do not believe in any sort of God, though in my case I'm willing to accept evidence if someone can explain how one could disprove the existance of god (eg "science").



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Originally Posted by Mr The Other View Post
We can all agree with that.

What we are discussing is whether sat down at a work bench and hammered things out within the confines of the material world and then explained it literally in the Bible in line with the lingusitics of modern day USA or not.
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post #67 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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The biggest problem with intelligent design theory is that you can't just use the approach, if we cant it explain something or the math probabilities are too astronomical then by default it must be by design by some creator. As in any scientific procedure you have to show evidence of something rather than the default of it must be because we can't explain it. This is drawing a conclusion without evidence. So, the real problem for ID or creation is that you have to have proof of a 'designer' or 'creator' rather than using this is a default conclusion without evidence.
There is also the problem of dismissing it because it cannot be explained with out current knowledge.

Dismissing abiogenesis because it seems to be physically impossible would be just as dumb as dismissing the idea of a creator simply because we can't explain where a creator came from.

Mathematically, it doesn't make sense that life exists.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #68 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 12:23 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

Why do you say that?
I haven't seen any analysis of the probability of creating a self-replicating organism randomly. Its small, but then oceans are big, and the hundreds of millions of years it took is a long time. It might only have happened on one out of a billion billion planets.

Remember that an entire cell doesn't need to be created from scratch. Just something vaguely like RNA that can replicate itself - something more like a very complex organic crystal than what you think of as life.

We know its easy to make Amino acid soup. Its the next step that is really mysterious.

Also, intelligent design really doesn't solve anything because the intelligence needed to come from somewhere.

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Mathematically, it doesn't make sense that life exists.
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post #69 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 12:30 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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There is also the problem of dismissing it because it cannot be explained with out current knowledge.

Dismissing abiogenesis because it seems to be physically impossible would be just as dumb as dismissing the idea of a creator simply because we can't explain where a creator came from.

Mathematically, it doesn't make sense that life exists.
No, it is not impossible to dismiss a creator, based on how science is conducted. First and foremost there is no way to test for a creator. If one cannot be observed using the scientific method then one has to utilized methodologies and observation that draw a conclusion based on ignorance rather than trying to base science on one's biased conclusion. Thus creation, simply is one where science does just that, test for a biased conclusion without any actually observable evidence. This leaves no possibility for any alternative thought. Thankfully, actual science attempts as much as possible to remove bias and allow conclusions to be drawn on the building block of evidence. And, thus over the last 200 years that evidence has given more credibility toward an evolutionary origin than of a created biology. The only exception is based on modern science where man has become the god of creation using biotechnology as our driving force.

The idea of abiogenesis is founded on the principle of what many scientific simulations have concluded, with simple organic matter and external energy (sun mainly) complex molecules can and do in fact form (nature of organic molecules). It has been well postulated that life emerged from the building block of RNA, having both genetic and enzymatic qualities - providing us with the two basic characteristics to define life, metabolism and continuity (reproduction).

Mathematics (probability) absolutely helps to support evolution. Yes, if the experiment could be run again, it may not provide us with the world we see now, but that does not discount the experiment that the world has already run.
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post #70 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 01:16 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

The following is interesting. From "ICR", Institute for Creation Research.

NOTE: numbers did not copy correctly 1015 is 10 to the 15th power....I think

"The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth."
óJean de la Bruyere (17th century)

Even though the large majority of modern scientists still embrace an evolutionary view of origins, there is a significant and growing number of scientists who have abandoned evolution altogether and have accepted creation instead.1 This phenomenon of recent times has occurred not only because many scientists recognize the dearth of evidence from paleontology, biology, and other fields to support evolution, but also due to the realization that the world around us is incredibly complex and shows so many signs of design that it cries out for an Intelligent Designer. Man shares with animals the ability to integrate sensory information and to direct motor responses through a command center called the brain. In higher vertebrates, the brain has the ability to learn, and, in the case of humans, to think. The very fact that man possesses the capacity to even think about thinking sets him further apart from animals. So, too, does his brain's incredibly complex structure, which makes thinking possible.

The adult brainóweighing only about three pounds and averaging about 1400 cubic centimetersócontains about ten billion (1010) neurons. The neuron (or nerve cell) is the basic unit of the brain. Each contains branching fibers, called dendrites, and each neuron is in dendritic contact with as many as 10,000 other neurons. Amazingly, the total number of neuron interconnections (also called "bits") is approximately 1000 trillion (1015), and if the dendritic connections were laid end to end, they would circle the earth more than four times.

To put this in another perspective, one could compare the human brain to the most sophisticated of computersóthe supercomputer. The Cray-2 Supercomputer has a speed of 109 computations per second. More impressively, the brain's speed is perhaps 1015. Furthermore, the Cray-2 has a storage capacity of 1011 bits, as compared to 1014 bits in the brain, making the brain equivalent to 1,000 supercomputers.2 Oxford Professor Roger Penrose, evolutionist and author of the 1989 book, The Emperor's New Mind, cautions, however, against stating that the human brain is just a complex computer or that a computer will ever be able to think (i.e., artificial intelligence): "The very fact that the mind leads us to truths that are not computable convinces me that a computer can never duplicate the mind."3 The brain's sophistication has also prompted prolific science writer (and evolutionist) Isaac Asimov to acknowledge that "in Man is a three-pound brain which, as far as we know, is the most complex and orderly arrangement of matter in the universe."4 In his iconoclastic volume, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, evolutionist Michael Denton has offered the following descriptive observation and analogy regarding the brain's 1015 connections:


Numbers in the order of 1015 are of course completely beyond comprehension. Imagine an area about half the size of the USA (one million square miles) covered in a forest of trees containing ten thousand trees per square mile. If each tree contained ten thousand leaves, the total number of leaves in the forest would be 1015, equivalent to the number of connections in the human brain.5

Although Dr. Denton is not a creationist, he argues a good case against the random chance (mindless) processes of evolution bringing about higher forms of life and a correspondingly complex brain, noting that the human brain contains a "forest of fibers [which] is not a chaotic random tangle but a highly organized network . . . [with] communication channels following their own specially ordained pathways through the brain"6 (emphasis ours). Denton also concludes that it "would take an eternity" for engineers to assemble an object remotely resembling the brain, using the most sophisticated engineering techniques.7 Not only does the incredible design of the brain point to a Master Designer, but so, too, does the Law of Cause and Effect. Simply put, this law states that every phenomenon is an effect of a cause, and that no effect can be measurably greater than its cause. Therefore, using causal reasoning, the first cause of intelligence must be of supreme intelligence.

#1[1] By evolution, we mean "macroevolution," i.e., molecules-to-man evolution; we do not mean microevolution (variation, adaptation, which is not "vertical" in direction).

Link for other notations: "I Think, Therefore There Is a Supreme Thinker" | The Institute for Creation Research


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post #71 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 01:34 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

Even IBM admits WATSON cannot compare to the human brain.

"IBM's big data analytics supercomputer Watson, while one of the most powerful technologies in the world, cannot match the power of the human brain, and probably never will, according to the IBM Watson lead."

"Eric Brown, the lead research scientist for Watson, said the supercomputer is not meant to be used instead of human brains, but alongside them. He was speaking at the Global Grand Challenges Summit in London........"

"In the case of Watson, the initial expectation is that it changes the power of cognition. It can't replicate what the human brain does, nor is this likely to be achievable, but it can leverage huge amounts of information."

I find it so very interesting that the best of the best of the best cannot even come close to the human brain, which simply develops inside the womb, presumably on it's own.....while "she" eats ice cream. .....chocolate chip, to be precise.

Last edited by UMP; 03-07-2017 at 01:41 PM.
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post #72 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 01:42 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by UMP View Post
The following is interesting. From "ICR", Institute for Creation Research.

NOTE: numbers did not copy correctly 1015 is 10 to the 15th power....I think

"The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth."
óJean de la Bruyere (17th century)

Even though the large majority of modern scientists still embrace an evolutionary view of origins, there is a significant and growing number of scientists who have abandoned evolution altogether and have accepted creation instead.1 This phenomenon of recent times has occurred not only because many scientists recognize the dearth of evidence from paleontology, biology, and other fields to support evolution, but also due to the realization that the world around us is incredibly complex and shows so many signs of design that it cries out for an Intelligent Designer. Man shares with animals the ability to integrate sensory information and to direct motor responses through a command center called the brain. In higher vertebrates, the brain has the ability to learn, and, in the case of humans, to think. The very fact that man possesses the capacity to even think about thinking sets him further apart from animals. So, too, does his brain's incredibly complex structure, which makes thinking possible.
Where does this place Neanderthals, a bipedal hominid who actually had a larger brain capacity than H. sapiens? Though we don't have directed evidence, there are many indicators that neanderthals along with other bipedal hominids were thinking and organizing species. Thus this theory of our brain being superior in thought is fraught with inconsistencies. It also suggests that other mammals have little capacity to think. This is not exactly what we understand about the brain. While the dog's cerebral cortex is not nearly as robust as our, the fact that they have a gray matter cerebral cortex suggests a matter of cognition. Sure, when compared to ours it is not nearly the same, but to say they don't have a thought process or the ability to store memory would not be accurate (memory being a form of cognition that cannot be ignored).

Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP View Post
The adult brainóweighing only about three pounds and averaging about 1400 cubic centimetersócontains about ten billion (1010) neurons. The neuron (or nerve cell) is the basic unit of the brain. Each contains branching fibers, called dendrites, and each neuron is in dendritic contact with as many as 10,000 other neurons. Amazingly, the total number of neuron interconnections (also called "bits") is approximately 1000 trillion (1015), and if the dendritic connections were laid end to end, they would circle the earth more than four times.

To put this in another perspective, one could compare the human brain to the most sophisticated of computersóthe supercomputer. The Cray-2 Supercomputer has a speed of 109 computations per second. More impressively, the brain's speed is perhaps 1015. Furthermore, the Cray-2 has a storage capacity of 1011 bits, as compared to 1014 bits in the brain, making the brain equivalent to 1,000 supercomputers.2 Oxford Professor Roger Penrose, evolutionist and author of the 1989 book, The Emperor's New Mind, cautions, however, against stating that the human brain is just a complex computer or that a computer will ever be able to think (i.e., artificial intelligence): "The very fact that the mind leads us to truths that are not computable convinces me that a computer can never duplicate the mind."3 The brain's sophistication has also prompted prolific science writer (and evolutionist) Isaac Asimov to acknowledge that "in Man is a three-pound brain which, as far as we know, is the most complex and orderly arrangement of matter in the universe."4 In his iconoclastic volume, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, evolutionist Michael Denton has offered the following descriptive observation and analogy regarding the brain's 1015 connections:


Numbers in the order of 1015 are of course completely beyond comprehension. Imagine an area about half the size of the USA (one million square miles) covered in a forest of trees containing ten thousand trees per square mile. If each tree contained ten thousand leaves, the total number of leaves in the forest would be 1015, equivalent to the number of connections in the human brain.5

Although Dr. Denton is not a creationist, he argues a good case against the random chance (mindless) processes of evolution bringing about higher forms of life and a correspondingly complex brain, noting that the human brain contains a "forest of fibers [which] is not a chaotic random tangle but a highly organized network . . . [with] communication channels following their own specially ordained pathways through the brain"6 (emphasis ours). Denton also concludes that it "would take an eternity" for engineers to assemble an object remotely resembling the brain, using the most sophisticated engineering techniques.7 Not only does the incredible design of the brain point to a Master Designer, but so, too, does the Law of Cause and Effect. Simply put, this law states that every phenomenon is an effect of a cause, and that no effect can be measurably greater than its cause. Therefore, using causal reasoning, the first cause of intelligence must be of supreme intelligence.

#1[1] By evolution, we mean "macroevolution," i.e., molecules-to-man evolution; we do not mean microevolution (variation, adaptation, which is not "vertical" in direction).

Link for other notations: "I Think, Therefore There Is a Supreme Thinker" | The Institute for Creation Research
The problem with this argument, is that in fact our brain has array of dynamic (plasticity, plasticity that was built on top of and from other primitive brains). The plasticity of the cognitive regions actually lend more how the cognitive brain is a series of probabilities (and thus the brain that if fitter has a greater chance of gaining more metabolic supplies and breeding continuity). For one to assume the high probability of something happening without purpose has already drawn a conclusion so that every mathematical model and all results are geared toward a given conclusion. This is not science. Scientist never use the word eternity, they use the term boundless space and time. And, given that we assume this boundless space and time started some 3.9 Billion Years ago, is simply flipping a multi-sided coin (thousands of sides) and each new experiment (random chance) resulted in an outcome and only those that survived the environmental surroundings could allow for more continuity (survival of the fitter). This is not evidence of creation but the mere basis of evolution.
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post #73 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 01:45 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Even IBM admits WATSON cannot compare to the human brain.

"IBM's big data analytics supercomputer Watson, while one of the most powerful technologies in the world, cannot match the power of the human brain, and probably never will, according to the IBM Watson lead."

"Eric Brown, the lead research scientist for Watson, said the supercomputer is not meant to be used instead of human brains, but alongside them. He was speaking at the Global Grand Challenges Summit in London........"

"In the case of Watson, the initial expectation is that it changes the power of cognition. It can't replicate what the human brain does, nor is this likely to be achievable, but it can leverage huge amounts of information."

I find it so very interesting that the best of the best of the best cannot even come close to the human brain, which simply develops inside the womb, presumably on it's own.....while "she" eats ice cream. .....chocolate chip, to be precise.
This based on 1970s assumption that we could not build a computer with actionable insights. As matter of keeping up with the times, these computers are in their infancy but slowly being looked at as a real possibility.
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post #74 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 01:51 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

Ikaika,
Dude, you speak above my pay grade.

All I can say is go outside and look all around you. Even look at your own self.

Romans 1:
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
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post #75 of 323 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 01:55 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Ikaika,
Dude, you speak above my pay grade.

All I can say is go outside and look all around you. Even look at your own self. I know you won't accept the following, yet it's the truth, like it or not.

Romans 1:
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Observations (looking around) does not present evidence of a creator.
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