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post #76 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 02:00 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by Ikaika View Post
Observations (looking around) does not present evidence of a creator.
According to the Bible it does, so much so that we are "without excuse."
Given that I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, I rest.........in Him.

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post #77 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 02:04 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

A good friend of mine has the quote "we define intelligence as the set of things computers cannot do".

When I was growing up playing chess, recognizing images, driving cars were all considered to be clear signs of intelligence. Now computers do all those things better than most or all humans.

One by one the things that we think of as "intelligence" are being automated. I see no reason to think that will stop. Right now the largest computers still have a lot less compute power than a brain but at current growth rates they will catch up in a decade or 3 (depending on how you measure compute power).

I expect human level intelligent systems by 2050 but of course we will need to wait and see.


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Even IBM admits WATSON cannot compare to the human brain.

"IBM's big data analytics supercomputer Watson, while one of the most powerful technologies in the world, cannot match the power of the human brain, and probably never will, according to the IBM Watson lead."

"Eric Brown, the lead research scientist for Watson, said the supercomputer is not meant to be used instead of human brains, but alongside them. He was speaking at the Global Grand Challenges Summit in London........"

"In the case of Watson, the initial expectation is that it changes the power of cognition. It can't replicate what the human brain does, nor is this likely to be achievable, but it can leverage huge amounts of information."

I find it so very interesting that the best of the best of the best cannot even come close to the human brain, which simply develops inside the womb, presumably on it's own.....while "she" eats ice cream. .....chocolate chip, to be precise.
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post #78 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 02:06 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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According to the Bible it does, so much so that we are "without excuse."
Given that I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, I rest.........in Him.
Here is the deal, I don't have a problem with anyone desiring to believe in a religion or ancient text. But to suggests that somehow, one needs to fit this into science without using the scientific methodology and simply "force fitting" weak unknown quantities for a default conclusion is just not science. I say if believing in a god and your bible makes you a better person, great, it is not something that needs to be proved scientifically.
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post #79 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 02:18 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Here is the deal, I don't have a problem with anyone desiring to believe in a religion or ancient text. But to suggests that somehow, one needs to fit this into science without using the scientific methodology and simply "force fitting" weak unknown quantities for a default conclusion is just not science.
Did you ever consider that maybe it can't be proven scientifically (by man) one way or the other? That in and of itself screams of a creator.

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I say if believing in a god and your bible makes you a better person, great, it is not something that needs to be proved scientifically.
This is bigger than science.
It's not all about being a "better person" either, although that is part of it.
It's also about your souls eternal existence. What could be more important than that? (to you)

Mark 8:
[36] For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
[37] Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
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post #80 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 02:25 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Did you ever consider that maybe it can't be proven scientifically (by man) one way or the other? That in and of itself screams of a creator.



This is bigger than science.
It's not all about being a "better person" either, although that is part of it.
It's also about your souls eternal existence. What could be more important than that? (to you)

Mark 8:
[36] For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
[37] Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
In so far as my geological and biological surroundings, what can't thus far be shown in evidence does not scream of a creator for me. But, that again is cool. Like I said if your belief in this ancient text helps you, that is all good, but it is not a science journal and one should be careful to mix the two up. As I said in the beginning, it is a mistake to argue these two points given that they use different means of how to interpret conclusions.
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post #81 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 02:40 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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In so far as my geological and biological surroundings, what can't thus far be shown in evidence does not scream of a creator for me. But, that again is cool. Like I said if your belief in this ancient text helps you, that is all good, but it is not a science journal and one should be careful to mix the two up. As I said in the beginning, it is a mistake to argue these two points given that they use different means of how to interpret conclusions.
We could both study till death and still end up no further. Even if I could find and post myriads of text from scientists trying to prove creation using scientific means, you could find just as many from your end to refute them, and so on and so forth producing endless disputations.

If a man cannot see what I see, does that make what I see invisible?
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post #82 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 02:43 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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If a man cannot see what I see, does that make what I see invisible?
If the other person has normal vision, then it means it's probably not there.
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post #83 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 02:46 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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We could both study till death and still end up no further. Even if I could find and post myriads of text from scientists trying to prove creation using scientific means, you could find just as many from your end to refute them, and so on and so forth producing endless disputations.

If a man cannot see what I see, does that make what I see invisible?
Not true. If you could provide evidence using the scientific method for a creator, I would not outright refute it. I simply would approach it as I would any other scientific theory, with the understanding that it is can be verified through a consilience of evidence. This is how science works. Science is not based on some wild ass guesses nor is it a liberal conspiracy.

The problem with your last question of probe, is that we don't see with our eyes we see with our brains. The eyes merely collect external energy and allow a transduction response to which our brains interprets it as vision. As such, blind people see, they just don't see as a person who has these collection and transducing devices.

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post #84 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by UMP View Post
According to the Bible it does, so much so that we are "without excuse."
Given that I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, I rest.........in Him.
Honsestly, I am on your side of this argument. But you are doing nothing for my skepticism by quoting the bible.

I need to see it to believe that it is true. I have a hard enough time seeing what is real while believing what others say. I am one who questions the world around him without cessation.

So much so that I have many lucid dreams every night. I don't just question what others say, I question everything, constantly. Where I am, what time it is, what I am doing, and why.

I have found the words of the bible to be an incredible explanation of what love really is, but I would be quite disappointed in a god that did not expect me to question him in every way.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #85 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 05:05 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

The problem is that many *people* tell me to do different things to protect my soul. Many books physically written by men (though potentially guided by God), tell me how to behave to protect my soul.

How do I choose? The ancient Hebrews worshiped their god, but Christians and Muslims have modified that old religion and formed many sub -sects: Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and a host of more recent versions. Ancient Hindus had a different set of beliefs and many gods. Buddhists adapted / modified Hinduism, and there are many sub sects.. There are Sikhs, Confucianism, Taoists, Wiccans, and a host of smaller religions. There are the many dead religions from the Indo-European sky gods (Odin / Zeus / Jupiter), Sumerian, Ancient Egyptian, Mayan, Aztec etc.

Millions of intelligent people have believed in a wide range of different and incompatible things. How can I choose which *people* to believe?

All I can do is wait for God to show me in a way that is convincing to *me*. He hasn't done so yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP View Post
Did you ever consider that maybe it can't be proven scientifically (by man) one way or the other? That in and of itself screams of a creator.



This is bigger than science.
It's not all about being a "better person" either, although that is part of it.
It's also about your souls eternal existence. What could be more important than that? (to you)

Mark 8:
[36] For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
[37] Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


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post #86 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 08:39 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
The problem is that many *people* tell me to do different things to protect my soul. Many books physically written by men (though potentially guided by God), tell me how to behave to protect my soul.

How do I choose? The ancient Hebrews worshiped their god, but Christians and Muslims have modified that old religion and formed many sub -sects: Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and a host of more recent versions. Ancient Hindus had a different set of beliefs and many gods. Buddhists adapted / modified Hinduism, and there are many sub sects.. There are Sikhs, Confucianism, Taoists, Wiccans, and a host of smaller religions. There are the many dead religions from the Indo-European sky gods (Odin / Zeus / Jupiter), Sumerian, Ancient Egyptian, Mayan, Aztec etc.

Millions of intelligent people have believed in a wide range of different and incompatible things. How can I choose which *people* to believe?

All I can do is wait for God to show me in a way that is convincing to *me*. He hasn't done so yet.
That's an honest question. I believe you can pray, earnestly asking God to show you.
There is a fine line here though. In the Bible it does say that an "adulterous" generation seeks after "sign" and that no sign will be given other than what has already been revealed in His creation and written word. (on top of this, Jesus had already done miracles, yet they (Pharisees) wanted another sign.)

Matthew 12:
[38] Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
[39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it,....

However, I believe if you humble yourself before God and pray that He touch your heart and show you the truth, He will. The key is to humble yourself. God does not owe man anything. We willingly turn from Him and seek our own way. Yet, He asks us to come to Him, but God does hate pride.

James 4:
[6] But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

If you go before God with the attitude that you are righteous and are owed something from Him, He will resist you.
If you view yourself as a righteous man, needing nothing from God, that's probably what you'll get.

Mark 2:
[15] And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.
[16] And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
[17] When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
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post #87 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 09:31 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
Honsestly, I am on your side of this argument. But you are doing nothing for my skepticism by quoting the bible.

I need to see it to believe that it is true. I have a hard enough time seeing what is real while believing what others say. I am one who questions the world around him without cessation.

So much so that I have many lucid dreams every night. I don't just question what others say, I question everything, constantly. Where I am, what time it is, what I am doing, and why.

I have found the words of the bible to be an incredible explanation of what love really is, but I would be quite disappointed in a god that did not expect me to question him in every way.
I don't think it's wrong to question God. The problem comes in HOW we question God.
Imagine a 12 year old boy questioning his earthly father on why he won't let him play with the chainsaw.

Child #1. "Dad, I really liked that chainsaw, it was fun to operate, I realize you love me and look out for me, but I really want to understand why you took it away. Please help me understand."

Child #2. "WTF, give me back that chainsaw or I'm leaving home. You've got 5 minutes to make up your mind or I'm out of here. I may not even come back. BTW you can kiss my ass if you decide against what I want."

Which child will be accepted?

Praying and questioning God (your eternal Father) is no different.
Question Him with humility. After all, He IS your creator.

Matthew 7:
[8] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
[9] Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
[10] Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
[11] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

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post #88 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 10:18 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

I hadn't realised evolution is still regarded a "theory". Is it a US thing? Over here, it's accepted as the standard model and taught in schools as fact.


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post #89 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 10:22 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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If the other person has normal vision, then it means it's probably not there.
Who defines what "normal" vision is?
If the earth was filled with color blind humans and there was only one soul jumping up and down trying to describe his view of color, it does not mean color does not exist in his eyes. It simply means the color blind are color blind.

John 3:
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
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post #90 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 10:28 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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I hadn't realised evolution is still regarded a "theory". Is it a US thing? Over here, it's accepted as the standard model and taught in schools as fact.


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Scientists view theories differently than lay people. Theories are not assumed as some wild ass guess. Theories are based on large consilience of supported evidence. In the case of evolution, the evidence dates back over 200 years and is supported by millions of published transcripts (with supportive data). So until an equal amount of evidence is presented to refute it, science theories carry a lot of weight. Facts are boring and end discussions, rather than allow for more and deeper understanding (what theories allow us to do).


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