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post #121 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 09:43 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

The reason we can't treat intelligent design as science is that there is no possible way to disprove it. We have millions of species, a long fossil record that connects them along with genetic evidence and evidence for microbial evolution in the laboratory. There are species that just died out, species that moved from one type of environment to another then back again.

That could all be "god's plan" which humans can't understand.

The problem is that absolutely anything could be "gods plan" so no matter what is observed it could all still be intelligent design.

It could be true, but its not science.

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post #122 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 12:17 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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The problem is that absolutely anything could be "gods plan" so no matter what is observed it could all still be intelligent design.

It could be true, but its not science.
The 1st point above is true, the second is not. Science is the search for truth. If intelligent design is the reality, science should be attempting to prove it (or disprove it, depending on your point of view).
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post #123 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 12:20 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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What I think is really really neat about evolution is that humans have advanced the process so we don't need it any more. So it appears that intelligent design made the process obsolete many moons ago. The dachshund was designed to chase badgers in holes many moons ago. I wonder if a few million years from now if folks would conclude that dachshunds evolved, not knowing they were specifically bred for the job, to chase badgers.


Biological Evolution is not process that can go or become obsolete. I understand what you mean that manmade ID, will outpace (in speed) the typical evolutionary processes in biology.

What is certain to outpace the normal biological evolution is cultural evolution. When at one time conquerors of an indigenous culture (mostly due to biology, namely immunology) would bring with them the data of the Bible or the Quran, now we have data of the Google and YouTube. In time ancient religious text will be replaced with faster and larger databases. Gone will be the days of going to an ancient text for decisions and advice, these will be small but powerful (verbal) data processors to help us make all sorts of decisions, even moral ones.


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post #124 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 12:21 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

Science (sort of by the definition of the scientific method) only works on things that can in principal be disproved. I don't see how that is possible for intelligent design.

Science *can* look for specific types of intelligent design. For example if someone has a theory that an intelligent entity controls the evolution of creatures to be better adapted to an upcoming environment change, that could be tested. We could (and I assume do) look for rapid evolutionary changes before the Cretaceous impact, after discounting any that can be attributed to the Deccan eruptions.





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The 1st point above is true, the second is not. Science is the search for truth. If intelligent design is the reality, science should be attempting to prove it (or disprove it, depending on your point of view).
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post #125 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 12:22 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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The 1st point above is true, the second is not. Science is the search for truth. If intelligent design is the reality, science should be attempting to prove it (or disprove it, depending on your point of view).


Science does not set out to prove a set conclusion. Science starts with a point of observation, ignorance followed by data collection and interpretation.

Your point sets a conclusion and data that fits that conclusion is accepted and that that does not is rejected. This is not science.


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post #126 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 12:24 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Science (sort of by the definition of the scientific method) only works on things that can in principal be disproved. I don't see how that is possible for intelligent design.

Science *can* look for specific types of intelligent design. For example if someone has a theory that an intelligent entity controls the evolution of creatures to be better adapted to an upcoming environment change, that could be tested. We could (and I assume do) look for rapid evolutionary changes before the Cretaceous impact, after discounting any that can be attributed to the Deccan eruptions.
that is intellectual laziness. I don't know how to do it, but that is how all science starts. We may never be able to prove/disprove intelligent design, but to throw up our hands and say we can't is the opposite of science, imo.
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post #127 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 12:26 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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that is intellectual laziness. I don't know how to do it, but that is how all science starts. We may never be able to prove/disprove intelligent design, but to throw up our hands and say we can't is the opposite of science, imo.


I will say for certain we cannot test for a creator. Science does not function at this level.


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post #128 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 12:29 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Science does not set out to prove a set conclusion. Science starts with a point of observation, ignorance followed by data collection and interpretation.

Your point sets a conclusion and data that fits that conclusion is accepted and that that does not is rejected. This is not science.


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Science starts with a hypothesis and attempts to prove it and disprove it. It starts with observation and there are plenty of observations that 'could' support intelligent design. Is intelligent design the reality? I don't know. To dismiss it out of hand IS intellectual laziness.

Examples in support:
1 - if the gravitational constant is off by <<10% of its value, physics blows up (recollecting this from physics in college from 20-30 years ago. Same can be said for many of the 'fundamental' constants. How is it that they exist just right to allow for anything to exist?
2 - so many missing parts of evolution

I could go on with examples, but that doesn't fit your need to disprove religion. This is not about religion, it is about the truth, whichever it is vis a vis intelligent design.
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post #129 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 12:32 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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I will say for certain we cannot test for a creator. Science does not function at this level.


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maybe, but maybe someone smarter than us figures it out? maybe we uncover new data that shows that random mutations would take longer than the accepted few billions of years of life on earth.

Most of physics was developed without having very good means of proving it out. Part of the study of physics was developing tools to test the hypotheses.
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post #130 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 12:37 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Science starts with a hypothesis and attempts to prove it and disprove it. It starts with observation and there are plenty of observations that 'could' support intelligent design. Is intelligent design the reality? I don't know. To dismiss it out of hand IS intellectual laziness.



Examples in support:

1 - if the gravitational constant is off by <<10% of its value, physics blows up (recollecting this from physics in college from 20-30 years ago. Same can be said for many of the 'fundamental' constants. How is it that they exist just right to allow for anything to exist?

2 - so many missing parts of evolution



I could go on with examples, but that doesn't fit your need to disprove religion. This is not about religion, it is about the truth, whichever it is vis a vis intelligent design.


Hypothesis are building blocks based on other observation or interpretations of evidence. Very few hypotheses are built in isolation.

Laziness would suggest if I don't understand something "it must be god" rather than continuing to probe the underlying process, which is what science does. We don't answer the larger questions, we answer the process questions.

Example: "Does overexpression of PEA-15 play a role in astrocytomas?" There is no inherent way to build a hypothesis and testable aims for a creator, because this is not a process question.


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post #131 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 12:40 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

Simply put science research is our way of trying to understand our biological algorithms.


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post #132 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 01:31 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by naiveonedave View Post
If intelligent design is the reality, science should be attempting to prove it (or disprove it, depending on your point of view).
Of course intelligent design is provable. Triploid largemouth bass, and trout have also been designed to be sterile to promote growth rather than reproduction. When you see an hybrid animal, you see an animal thats a product of intelligent design.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #133 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 01:47 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

"Science brings men nearer to God." Louis Pasteur

"The visible order of the universe proclaims a supreme intelligence." Jean-Jacques Rousseau

"The visible marks of extraordinary wisdom and power appear so plainly in all the works of the creation that a rational creature, who will but seriously reflect on them, cannot miss the discovery of a Deity." John Locke

"As a house implies a builder, and a garment a weaver, and a door a carpenter, so does the existence of the universe imply a creator." Marquis de Vauvenargues

"It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe without the agency of a Supreme Being." George Washington

"From a knowledge of His work, we shall know Him." Robert Boyle

"In question of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." Galileo Galilei

"Of what I call God, And fools call Nature." Robert Browning

"So irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful Agent that, of the infinite numbers of men who have exited thro' all the time, they have believed, in the proportion of a million at least to Unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a creator, rather than in that of a self-existent Universe." Thomas Jefferson

"Nature is the art of God." Dante Alighieri

"The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator." Louis Pasteur
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post #134 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 02:02 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Of course intelligent design is provable. Triploid largemouth bass, and trout have also been designed to be sterile to promote growth rather than reproduction. When you see an hybrid animal, you see an animal thats a product of intelligent design.
Cute, but that yours is not the commonly accepted definition of "intelligent design".
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post #135 of 385 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 02:43 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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"Science brings men nearer to God." Louis Pasteur



"The visible order of the universe proclaims a supreme intelligence." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



"The visible marks of extraordinary wisdom and power appear so plainly in all the works of the creation that a rational creature, who will but seriously reflect on them, cannot miss the discovery of a Deity." John Locke



"As a house implies a builder, and a garment a weaver, and a door a carpenter, so does the existence of the universe imply a creator." Marquis de Vauvenargues



"It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe without the agency of a Supreme Being." George Washington



"From a knowledge of His work, we shall know Him." Robert Boyle



"In question of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." Galileo Galilei



"Of what I call God, And fools call Nature." Robert Browning



"So irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful Agent that, of the infinite numbers of men who have exited thro' all the time, they have believed, in the proportion of a million at least to Unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a creator, rather than in that of a self-existent Universe." Thomas Jefferson



"Nature is the art of God." Dante Alighieri



"The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator." Louis Pasteur


The more I think of a creator the more I ask, "why was he/she so obsessed with beetles?"

Men who lived of their time and place and under the tyranny of the church. If back then you questioned god, you were put to death, Copernicus is one who comes to mind. Thankfully we have survived these dark times and are now to think freely beyond such archaic thoughts.


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