Evolution VS Creation - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 11:31 AM Thread Starter
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Evolution VS Creation

i figured this might be an interesting thread. so, what is the evidence you have seen for evolution, and what is the evidence you have seen for creation?

i only ask one thing, please do not derail this thread into bashing people with different views. if you think a particular way of interpreting a piece of information is deluded or idiotic, poke holes in the argument rather than attack the person.
i would like to see fairly objective reasoning.

anyway, anything that you can think of that supports either creation or evolution, or refutes either of them. scientific discoveries, mathematics, genetics, etc. share the evidence and share why you believe it supports or refutes a either side.

i would love to hear your thoughts.


"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #2 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 02:22 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

A while back I did some research on this.... One thing I found interesting (and I can't find the link anymore), was a math/statistical study of the human population. Given what anthropologists thought the population was at any point in time and modeling it. Their conclusion was that without many unknown events that killed off most of the people living at that time, people have only inhabited the world for like 10-30K years. If it was longer than that, the population would be much higher. Found that very interesting.

We also don't have any documented work (to my knowledge) where one species spawned another with a different chromosome count. This makes evolution a hard theory to accept. Granted, just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't happen.
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post #3 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 02:50 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by naiveonedave View Post
A while back I did some research on this.... One thing I found interesting (and I can't find the link anymore), was a math/statistical study of the human population. Given what anthropologists thought the population was at any point in time and modeling it. Their conclusion was that without many unknown events that killed off most of the people living at that time, people have only inhabited the world for like 10-30K years. If it was longer than that, the population would be much higher. Found that very interesting.

We also don't have any documented work (to my knowledge) where one species spawned another with a different chromosome count. This makes evolution a hard theory to accept. Granted, just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't happen.
I do not know where you got your information but as someone who studied this in college, the age of man is about 200,000. We are finding artifacts and skeletons much older than you claim. If you read Darwin's work as well as many others, you can see the progression over time of species where those with features that made survival more likely lived on while those without, died off. We have vestigial tails and no longer are covered in hair from head to foot.

I think that if people research in places that are anti evolution, they will find what fits their belief system. First off scientist look at DNA. Our DNA is 98% the same as chimpanzees and about 99% similar to some species of African ape. The evidence for evolution is out there for anyone with an open mind. The main problem is that most people do not understand the science of things and it is easier to go with faith which does not require any scientific proof. Who really can explain the Big Bang? Not many.

Fossil remains are testament to the evolution of species as is DNA. You can be religious and also believe in evolution as God's plan, but know that the creationist story in the bible took bits and pieces from many other creationist stories of the time in other religions. It was written by men who did not even know as much as a 10 year old does today. They did not know how babies were made other than having sex made them, so naturally they would think that people had to spring from people and therefore there had to be at least one male and female to start it off. It was a nice story back then, but does not hold up to scientific inquiry. One thing I do know is that you can always find something to prove what you believe, even the existence of Big Foot and the Loch Ness monster. For every argument for one thing there is another against it. What most do is look for the things that support their personal belief system and reject that which does not support what they believe.

It does not really matter how man came about. People cannot prove that God exists or that he does not. So you believe what you wish to believe. All I know is that I studied evolution and I am convinced that it is real and scientifically verifiable. In the end who cares how we came about. We are here and to me that is all that matters.

Many prefer to drown in a pool of their own morality rather than seek the safety of a different morality.

Last edited by Vinnydee; 02-07-2017 at 04:32 PM.
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post #4 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 03:02 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by Vinnydee View Post
I do not know where you got your information but as someone who studied this in college, the age of man is about 200,000. We are finding artifacts and skeletons much older than you claim. If you read Darwin's work as well as many others, you can see the progression over time of species where those with features that made survival more likely lived on while those without, died off. We have vestigial tails and no longer are covered in hair from head to foot.

I think that if people research in places that are anti evolution, they will find what fits their belief system. First off scientist look at DNA. Our DNA is 98% the same as chimpanzees and about 99% similar to some species of African ape. The evidence for evolution is out there for anyone with an open mind. The main problem is that most people do not understand the science of things and it is easier to go with faith which does not require any scientific proof. Who really can explain the Big Bang? Not many.

Fossil remains are testament to the evolution of species as is DNA. You can be religious and also believe in evolution as God's plan but know that the creationist story in the bible was took bits and pieces from many other stories of early man who did not even know as much as a 10 year old today. They did not know how babies were made other than having sex made them so naturally they would think that people had to spring from people and therefore there had to be at least one male and female to start it off. It was a nice story back then but does not hold up to scientific inquiry. One thing I do know is that you can always find something to prove what you believe, even the existence of Big Foot and the Loch Ness monster. For every argument for one thing there is another against it. What most do is look for the things that support their personal support system and reject that which does not support what they believe.

It does not really matter how man came about. People cannot prove that God exists or that he does not. So you believe what you wish to believe. All I know is that studied evolution and I am convinced that it is real and scientifically verifiable. In the end who cares how we came about. We are here and to me that is all that matters.
found the link: World Population Since Creation

It is purely a mathematical model, based on what anthropologists know about how many humans were alive at any point in history. Very similar, but obviously much simpler model to AGW. I am sure you will disagree with it, because it doesn't fit your education.

Also, the common ancestor being only several thousand years ago really implies that we have not inhabited the planet nearly as long as evolutionists think.

Evolution is only a theory and will remain so until we a) generate life from what is not living and b) see mutations that cross the # of chromosomes. Neither of which has been done to date, I think.
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post #5 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 03:35 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

Evolution occurs and it is a scientific fact. There is nothing to debate. However, believing in creation doesn't rule out evolution, it just says that the origin of life was by plan and not by accident. The issues that people run into to discount creation is when they argue that the world was created 5800'ish years ago. That's a common misinterpretation of the bible and I don't know where it came from. If someone tells me that they deciphered that from the creation story, I ask them which one. There is more than one creation story in the bible and the order of creation changes between the stories. That makes sense since the bible is not meant to be an all encompassing history book that was written in a linear sequence. Instead it was meant to teach morality and was written in the way that could be understood by the population at that time.
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post #6 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 03:55 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

I had never really read G. K. Chesterton until this year--and I've been voraciously reading his works since I started in early January. I think there is a great quote on this subject from Chesterton which sums up exactly how I've felt about evolution since I was a kid:

"If evolution simply means that a positive thing called an ape turned very slowly into a positive thing called a man, then it is stingless for the most orthodox; for a personal God might just as well do things slowly as quickly, especially if, like the Christian God, he were outside time. But if it means anything more, it means that there is no such thing as an ape to change, and no such thing as a man for him to change into. It means that there is no such thing as a thing. At best, there is only one thing, and that is a flux of everything and anything. This is an attack not upon the faith, but upon the mind; you cannot think if there are no things to think about."
~G.K. Chesterton: "Orthodoxy."
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post #7 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 04:50 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
i would love to hear your thoughts.
By Creationism, I assume you mean the Genesis version, instead of the numerous creation stories found in ancient cultures.

I'm not a biological scientist, but I know that there is a scientific process in which scientist across the world are in agreement on. The scientific method crosses all cultures. Because of countless repeated experiments, a fossil scientist in France and one in India will agree about how to measure the age of bones. The scientific method has a pretty good track record with many other enterprises that do not contradict old creation stories. They've landed rovers on Mars that can communicate back to them. That is a fascinating feat that we spend little time contemplating.

In regard to evolution, I again look at the track record of biological sciences. The track record of medical advances and advances in drug design are also impressive. There is not a good reason for suddenly declaring biological sciences bogus because findings point to a very gradual process of evolution.

The creation story of Genesis states that a God who was never created himself, creates all the stars, planets, and nebula from what appears earlier super nova explosions, all in the dark. The sun was created, but apparently without light because it wasn't until the next day that he created light. Galileo was one of several to be persecuted for declaring the earth is not the center of the universe, which violated religious teachings. The same Catholic church now accepts evolution.

People can draw their own conclusions about which is more likely to have happened. Whichever way you lean, disagreements do not need to arouse hostility.
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post #8 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 04:54 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by Vinnydee View Post
In the end who cares how we came about. We are here and to me that is all that matters.
In all respect, many care because we are curious by nature. We care enough to devote areas of science to finding out as much as possible about when and how we came about.
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post #9 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 07:13 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

The fossil record shows a broad, if fragmentary record of changes in species over time that are consistent with what evolution would predict. Isolated eco systems like Australia, New Zealand and famously the Galopogos also show species that are consistent with evolution. Changes in bacteria culture under stress are consistent with evolution.

I'm not aware of significant evidence against evolution. An example of such evidence would, for example, be a species that changed in a way to adapt to an environmental change before that change happened.

Evolution also is consistent with what we know about genetics, mathematics and the physical universe.

Of course it is impossible to rule out a god who has caused slow changes in species in a way that is consistent with evolution. It is just as impossible to rule out the possibility that God created the world 6000 years ago (or 1 second ago) designed to look old. If an omnipotent omniscient god wants to fool me, he will succeed.
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post #10 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 09:47 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by Vinnydee View Post
I do not know where you got your information but as someone who studied this in college, the age of man is about 200,000.
When did "man" become man to arrive at 200k years?

If your post addressed this, I apologize for not reading carefully.


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post #11 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 09:51 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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In all respect, many care because we are curious by nature. We care enough to devote areas of science to finding out as much as possible about when and how we came about.
Nicely said.

I would say "curious of nature" rather than "curious by nature."

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post #12 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 10:59 PM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

Science consists of following the "scientific method". This has proven useful on many occasions. Other things can be right, but they are sort of by definition not science.

A theory (like evolution) proposes some rule. Experiments and measurements are then done to attempt to find some violation of that rule. If something violates the rule, the theory must be abandoned, and a new or modified one found that fits the data.

So, evolution, as a scientific theory can never be anything other than a theory. It cannot be proven, only disproved - that is the process called "science".

Your "a"and "b" below would not prove evolution, they would just be another experiment that failed to disprove it - though an important one.

Evolution would be disproved by evidence that species had changed to become adapapted to an environmental change that had not yet happened.

There are of course human artifacts from considerably longer ago than 6000 BC.


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Originally Posted by naiveonedave View Post
snip

Evolution is only a theory and will remain so until we a) generate life from what is not living and b) see mutations that cross the # of chromosomes. Neither of which has been done to date, I think.
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post #13 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 12:33 AM
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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a) generate life from what is not living
https://www.theguardian.com/science/...etic-life-form

Dangerous though, people are saying it could escape and cause havoc / be used as biological weapons. Can also cure cancer. Or herald the beginning of a zombie apocalypse, or turn this planet into a planet of the apes.
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post #14 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 02:36 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by Bananapeel View Post
Evolution occurs and it is a scientific fact. There is nothing to debate. However, believing in creation doesn't rule out evolution, it just says that the origin of life was by plan and not by accident. The issues that people run into to discount creation is when they argue that the world was created 5800'ish years ago. That's a common misinterpretation of the bible and I don't know where it came from. If someone tells me that they deciphered that from the creation story, I ask them which one. There is more than one creation story in the bible and the order of creation changes between the stories. That makes sense since the bible is not meant to be an all encompassing history book that was written in a linear sequence. Instead it was meant to teach morality and was written in the way that could be understood by the population at that time.
if evolution is scientific fact, by what means does it occur?

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #15 of 381 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 02:42 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Evolution VS Creation

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Originally Posted by Steve1000 View Post
By Creationism, I assume you mean the Genesis version, instead of the numerous creation stories found in ancient cultures.

I'm not a biological scientist, but I know that there is a scientific process in which scientist across the world are in agreement on. The scientific method crosses all cultures. Because of countless repeated experiments, a fossil scientist in France and one in India will agree about how to measure the age of bones. The scientific method has a pretty good track record with many other enterprises that do not contradict old creation stories. They've landed rovers on Mars that can communicate back to them. That is a fascinating feat that we spend little time contemplating.

In regard to evolution, I again look at the track record of biological sciences. The track record of medical advances and advances in drug design are also impressive. There is not a good reason for suddenly declaring biological sciences bogus because findings point to a very gradual process of evolution.

The creation story of Genesis states that a God who was never created himself, creates all the stars, planets, and nebula from what appears earlier super nova explosions, all in the dark. The sun was created, but apparently without light because it wasn't until the next day that he created light. Galileo was one of several to be persecuted for declaring the earth is not the center of the universe, which violated religious teachings. The same Catholic church now accepts evolution.

People can draw their own conclusions about which is more likely to have happened. Whichever way you lean, disagreements do not need to arouse hostility.
i was actually had intelligent design in mind, so the particular creation story doesn't matter.

as for your timeline for the biblical creation story, its a bit off.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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