Let the burden lie with its proponents - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:11 PM Thread Starter
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Let the burden lie with its proponents

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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:32 PM
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

I don't think its a reasonable analogy. I might be in favor of having prisons, but not want prisoners and a guard in my house. I might want to rescue endangered bison, but not want one in my back yard. I may support education, but not want to teach myself.

I think it IS fair that anyone who wants the US to take in refugees should be happy to have some of them in their city. I am.

Anyone who wants to allow Muslims to immigrate to the US should be happy to have them living nearby. They are in my case.

I'd be happy to have refugees living on my block or in my apartment complex if the necessary services were available.

Similarly I'm happy with reducing TSA security and I spend a lot of time on airliners exposed to the risks that represents.
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

I'm good with getting rid of the TSA entirely.

As for refugees, I prefer that safe zones be created near where they are fleeing rather than having them come here.

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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 11:34 PM
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

I would agree with safe zones if I knew how to to make them work. In Syria, the refugees are caught between ISIL and other rebel groups of varying levels of viciousness, and the Russian backed Syrian government which has been killing civilians, committing mass murder, torture etc. There is no middle ground, one side or the other will consider refugees to be the enemy.

The US would need a lot of ground troops to protect the safe zones, and they would need to declare a no-fly zone... against the Russians. The risk of that escalating is big. I don't want a nuclear war over fcking Syria.

There are millions of refugees. The US is only taking a small manageable number. If we tried to protect the whole group in Syria, we would be basically invading the country.





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I'm good with getting rid of the TSA entirely.

As for refugees, I prefer that safe zones be created near where they are fleeing rather than having them come here.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 04:31 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

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I would agree with safe zones if I knew how to to make them work. In Syria, the refugees are caught between ISIL and other rebel groups of varying levels of viciousness, and the Russian backed Syrian government which has been killing civilians, committing mass murder, torture etc. There is no middle ground, one side or the other will consider refugees to be the enemy.

The US would need a lot of ground troops to protect the safe zones, and they would need to declare a no-fly zone... against the Russians. The risk of that escalating is big. I don't want a nuclear war over fcking Syria.

There are millions of refugees. The US is only taking a small manageable number. If we tried to protect the whole group in Syria, we would be basically invading the country.
I'm not saying the US should provide the safe zones. We could contribute to the expense, and should do so because it was US insanity that caused the problem in the first place.

However, having said that, it is the Arab countries in the region that must take care of it. Sending in US troops would just exacerbate the problem.

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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 09:49 AM
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

Some of the Arab countries like Jordan are doing their part - they have huge refugee camps. Others like Saudi Arabia are doing nothing. The US should be pressuring the Saudis.

Its not a matter of expense, I don't think anyone but the US (or russia or china) has the military strength to enforce a safe zone. Remember that the Syrians are backed by Russia, so no minor power is going to be able to do much.

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I'm not saying the US should provide the safe zones. We could contribute to the expense, and should do so because it was US insanity that caused the problem in the first place.

However, having said that, it is the Arab countries in the region that must take care of it. Sending in US troops would just exacerbate the problem.
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

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Some of the Arab countries like Jordan are doing their part - they have huge refugee camps. Others like Saudi Arabia are doing nothing. The US should be pressuring the Saudis.

Its not a matter of expense, I don't think anyone but the US (or russia or china) has the military strength to enforce a safe zone. Remember that the Syrians are backed by Russia, so no minor power is going to be able to do much.
Russia and the US should be able to agree on this.

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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 05:03 PM
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

We have very different goals.

Russia is an ally of the existing Syrian government and of Iran.

The US is an ally of Israel which is an enemy of Iran. We also (reasonably IMHO) want to support the Syrian government which is guilty of a variety of war crimes and violations of the Geneva convention.

Unfortunately while we agree in opposing Islamic extremism, we disagree on a lot of other issues in the Middle East. There are a lot more than 2 sides in this mess.


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Russia and the US should be able to agree on this.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 05:09 PM
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents


Of course I'm opposed to a border wall that is such an insult to Hispanics as well as the ban on Muslims from those countries. Its un-American, makes us all look like xenophobes, and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is to fight it. Just tell your people to have the guards at the gate page me when they get here and I'll have my guy bring them down a check. I don't want them coming up here upsetting my wife and kids and maybe casing the place out while they're here.



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If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 05:30 PM
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

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We have very different goals.

Russia is an ally of the existing Syrian government and of Iran.

The US is an ally of Israel which is an enemy of Iran. We also (reasonably IMHO) want to support the Syrian government which is guilty of a variety of war crimes and violations of the Geneva convention.

Unfortunately while we agree in opposing Islamic extremism, we disagree on a lot of other issues in the Middle East. There are a lot more than 2 sides in this mess.
You make a great argument for greater control of who enters the U.S. from those areas.


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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 09:28 AM
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

We already have a lot of checks on people entering. Unlike Europe, people can't just come her in boats, they mostly have to go through controlled boarders. That lets us keep most of the dangerous people out.

We've had very few problems from immigrants over the last decade. Not sure we need to change much.

We are also not a big target for extremists right now. Its Russia that's very active in the area.


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You make a great argument for greater control of who enters the U.S. from those areas.
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 10:28 AM
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

I like the idea. Who would allow just anybody to enter their own home without first making sure they believe the guest is not a threat? For many years our government has stated they cannot effectively vet many foreigners. We know our enemies have sworn to come here to commit all manner of violence. Not just terrorist attacks but personal violence. Rape and assault committed by refugees and immigrants in Europe is an epidemic. Foreign governments believe there is no effective vetting taking place. We know there is little to no background data available in many source countries to allow effective vetting of refugees and immigrants.

I'm all for allowing immigration of people we strongly believe will be a positive contribution to our society. I don't care what their origin is or what their religion is. But they must be coming here to assimilate and to contribute.

It is naive and stupid to think there are not organized attempts to infiltrate our country for the purpose of destroying it. There is a stated strategy of simply populating areas with large percentages of radical or fundamentalist Muslims. There are stated goals of putting violent terrorists on our soil via the refugee or immigrant programs. Those who advocate sticking our heads in the sand by accepting all who want to come here from high risk countries should be the ones to live the immediate risk of bringing those people in.
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 10:34 AM
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

The great lie in this current (manufactured) controversy is that Trump and his supporters oppose Muslims. This is not a Muslim ban. Nine of the ten largest Muslim countries are not on the ban, because immigrants from those countries are not considered high risk. Any person from the restricted countries whether Muslim or not would be prohibited under the ban. Any person whether or not Muslim from any other country would not be subject to the restriction.

This whole controversy is manufactured in order to drag down Trump and the Republicans.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 11:37 AM
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

Trump himself said during the election that he wanted to ban Muslims. Guiliani said that he helped Trump write the ban on muslims to make it legal. Trump said that he wanted to favor Christians.

The ban might have stood without those statements, but with them it was too easy for the lawyers to show that the *intent* of the law was to be discriminatory, even if the wording wasn't.

This all could have worked if Trump's team had done their homework correctly.


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The great lie in this current (manufactured) controversy is that Trump and his supporters oppose Muslims. This is not a Muslim ban. Nine of the ten largest Muslim countries are not on the ban, because immigrants from those countries are not considered high risk. Any person from the restricted countries whether Muslim or not would be prohibited under the ban. Any person whether or not Muslim from any other country would not be subject to the restriction.

This whole controversy is manufactured in order to drag down Trump and the Republicans.
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 11:52 AM
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Re: Let the burden lie with its proponents

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Trump himself said during the election that he wanted to ban Muslims. Guiliani said that he helped Trump write the ban on muslims to make it legal. Trump said that he wanted to favor Christians.

The ban might have stood without those statements, but with them it was too easy for the lawyers to show that the *intent* of the law was to be discriminatory, even if the wording wasn't.

This all could have worked if Trump's team had done their homework correctly.
You are misquoting the Donald. The entire quote is closer to a ban on all Muslims UNTIL WE CAN PROPERLY VET THEM. Favoring Christians is actually the humane thing to do, given that they are preferentially killed in the areas that ISIS controls. Not reported much by our left wing news orgs, but true none the less. What Trump wants to do IS very logical policy and given the laws on the books and historical precedent, legal.

the fact that the judge is looking for a reason to strike this down at the level, shows that this stood a snow balls chance in the Arabian desert..... He was grasping at straws. the logic and what trump said are sound.
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