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post #46 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:02 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Originally Posted by becareful2 View Post
The FBI doesn't have a database of these refugees' backgrounds, so there's no way to determine who they really are. They basically get to create a clean slate when they come here.
Can anyone speak to the actual process before they get here? This doesn't quite address it.

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post #47 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:08 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
An interesting question: Does equal protection extend to visitors in the US?

Again, while the law doesn't say "muslim", the president did - on national media. Courts are allowed to use that information.
But the order he signed in no way singles out Muslims or any other group. Courts can't use information which is not material to the issue, and since the order does not single out Muslims it is not material information. Furthermore, of the countries which are majority Muslim, the largest such countries are not included in the temporary ban. That would argue the ban is not attempting to single out Muslims.

And even if the ban did single out Muslims, it is within the President's power to do so! You should read the relevant law.

The courts have consistently held that persons within our borders have Constitutional rights. A person here under any status is covered. But the courts have also held consistently that persons who are not citizens and who are not within our borders have no Constitutional rights. Those who are citizens of other countries and are located outside our borders have no claim to Constitutional protections.
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post #48 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:15 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

Here's another analysis of how the court has ignored the law. There is no standing to have brought this case in the first place. This is from "Unbiased America" on Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/UnbiasedAme...95527630633236

Quote:
HOW THE COURTS GOT IT WRONG
By Will Ricciardella
The 9th circuit ruling has been a bit misunderstood by a media that is averse to reporting facts and circumstances, and instead tacitly claiming Donald Trump's executive order is unconstitutional.

We have a tendency to think of judges as impartial magistrates, that interpret and dispense the law, not politics, and hardly venture out of their jurisdiction. We think of judges not as humans, but as gods in black robes.

WHAT DID THE U.S. DISTRICT COURT RULE?

In order for the U.S. District Court in Washington to issue a temporary stay, they have to prove that residents of the state were being harmed by portions of the travel restrictions in Trump's executive order. In legal terms, they have to have "standing." Someone has to show that they have been injured by the law. The state made the claim, yet no one was injured, they essentially claimed potential injury for people who aren't citizens, and have no right to be here or travel here.

One claim is that it will harm Washington's economy, the other is it will hurt Washington University faculty and students that may be stranded. Not one instance of the latter has yet to happen to provide the grounds for legal standing for them to sue.

The harm has to be real, not hypothetical and an actual case needs to be brought before the Court. It has to affect a legal resident, or citizen to even be considered for standing. Non-citizens on US soil do have due process rights, yet no one affected, legal or nonlegal have been on US soil, obviously this EO was to keep noncitizen, terrorist aliens out.

This is why Robert's decision was devoid of any legal reasoning, or logic as to how they have standing.

Claims were also made that it violated the Equal Protection Clause and Establishment Clause of the Constitution. Though, legal precedent is clear, non-citizens not on US soil do not have constitutional rights. Period. I will repeat that till I am blue in the face.

WHAT THE 9TH CIRCUIT RULED:

It ruled that the Washington District Court does have standing to issue the temporary injunction because Washington State had invited non-citizen, non-visa holding employees that were denied travel as well as visiting scholars that were denied travel.

This is like outsourcing our national security to non-citizen, potential immigrants in foreign countries in failed states, and contain elements and ideologies that are adversarial to the United States national security interests. It's pointing towards a constitutional right to emigrate as a non-citizen from anywhere, including countries we are at war with.

It is clear, that Congress and the President have plenary power over immigration, and the President over foreign affairs. By statute this gives POTUS authority to block non-citizen potential immigrants from anywhere he wants for national security purposes. Not to mention, the restrictions are TEMPORARY for a stated purpose of bolstering security screenings.

WHAT HAPPENS NOW:

The case gets kicked back the Washington State District Court that issued the temporary injunction, where arguments will be made by the administration to hold off a permanent injunction, likely to be filed by the state. This could take months.

It will then head to the Supreme Court for final review on its Constitutionality and standing grounds.

WHY DID THIS HAPPEN:

This is not checks and balances, this is the Court taking plenary power away from Congress (the people and states), and the President in matters of national security, and sticking their nose where it doesn't belong. It is politically motivated, and leaves the US vulnerable to terrorist cells trying to infiltrate the US.

Sources:
https://www.mprnews.org/…/minnesota-...-allowing-tra…
FoxNews.com - Breaking News | Latest News | Current News
Federal appeals court: Seattle judge?s halt on travel ban remains | KIRO-TV
https://www.conservativereview.com/…...cuits-stolen-…
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post #49 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:20 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Originally Posted by Keke24 View Post
Can anyone speak to the actual process before they get here? This doesn't quite address it.
I found the below description of the vetting process.

My understanding of the issue with the 7 countries is that they have been in turmoil/war for some time. Even before the turmoil/war (if there ever was a time before it), they have no real record keeping system. Only some people have birth certificates and a lot of people buy false papers. So no knows who most of the refugees from those countries really are. And ISIS, Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations provide all kinds of forged documents to liked minded folks.

Refugees Entering the U.S. Already Face a Rigorous Vetting Process

President Trump has suspended entry of all refugees to the United States for 120 days, and he has barred Syrian refugees indefinitely. The current screening process for all refugees involves many layers of security checks before entry into the country, and Syrians were subject to an additional layer of checks. Sometimes, the process, shown below, takes up to two years.

1. Registration with the United Nations.

2. Interview with the United Nations.

3. Refugee status granted by the United Nations.

4. Referral for resettlement in the United States.

The United Nations decides if the person fits the definition of a refugee and whether to refer the person to the United States or to another country for resettlement. Only the most vulnerable are referred, accounting for less than than 1 percent of refugees worldwide. Some people spend years waiting in refugee camps.

5. Interview with State Department contractors.

6. First background check.

7. Higher-level background check for some.

8. Another background check.

The refugee’s name is run through law enforcement and intelligence databases for terrorist or criminal history. Some go through a higher-level clearance before they can continue. A third background check was introduced in 2008 for Iraqis but has since been expanded to all refugees ages 14 to 65.

9. First fingerprint screening; photo taken.

10. Second fingerprint screening.

11. Third fingerprint screening.

The refugee’s fingerprints are screened against F.B.I. and Homeland Security databases, which contain watch list information and past immigration encounters, including if the refugee previously applied for a visa at a United States embassy. Fingerprints are also checked against those collected by the Defense Department during operations in Iraq.

12. Case reviewed at United States immigration headquarters.

13. Some cases referred for additional review.

Syrian applicants must undergo these two additional steps. Each is reviewed by a United States Citizenship and Immigration Services refugee specialist. Cases with “national security indicators” are given to the Homeland Security Department’s fraud detection unit.

14. Extensive, in-person interview with Homeland Security officer.

Most of the interviews with Syrians have been done in Jordan and Turkey.

15. Homeland Security approval is required.

16. Screening for contagious diseases.

17. Cultural orientation class.

18. Matched with an American resettlement agency.

19. Multi-agency security check before leaving for the United States.

Because of the long amount of time between the initial screening and departure, officials conduct a final check before the refugee leaves for the United States.

20. Final security check at an American airport.

.
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post #50 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:21 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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post #51 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Originally Posted by Keke24 View Post
Can anyone speak to the actual process before they get here? This doesn't quite address it.
I can, since my family are legal immigrants. We filled out the paperwork and waited to be notified for an interview. That's the background check done in the country of origin. They went through our profiles, asked us a bunch of questions, and determined whether to admit or reject our application. The rest is self-explanatory. I was a child at the time so I may have forgotten all about the medical checkups.

The 7 countries on Obama's & Trump's list don't have adequate info on who the applicants are, and the FBI has even less info on them.
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post #52 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:31 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

What is strange is that the ban does almost nothing to stop illegal immigration. Presumably known terrorists will just walk across the boarder like millions of other people have done. So I don't see how the ban helps.

A secure boarder would be great if we can find a practical way to do it.
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post #53 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
What is strange is that the ban does almost nothing to stop illegal immigration. Presumably known terrorists will just walk across the boarder like millions of other people have done. So I don't see how the ban helps.

A secure boarder would be great if we can find a practical way to do it.
The ban will help somewhat but I agree, the border needs to be secured. The Dems will oppose every step of the way, so hopefully the nuke option will be used to get that bill passed. We know the Dems, the liberal media, and the social justice warriors don't want a wall so it's going to be a challenge.
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post #54 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:40 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
I found the below description of the vetting process.

My understanding of the issue with the 7 countries is that they have been in turmoil/war for some time. Even before the turmoil/war (if there ever was a time before it), they have no real record keeping system. Only some people have birth certificates and a lot of people buy false papers. So no knows who most of the refugees from those countries really are. And ISIS, Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations provide all kinds of forged documents to liked minded folks.

Refugees Entering the U.S. Already Face a Rigorous Vetting Process

President Trump has suspended entry of all refugees to the United States for 120 days, and he has barred Syrian refugees indefinitely. The current screening process for all refugees involves many layers of security checks before entry into the country, and Syrians were subject to an additional layer of checks. Sometimes, the process, shown below, takes up to two years.

1. Registration with the United Nations.

2. Interview with the United Nations.

3. Refugee status granted by the United Nations.

4. Referral for resettlement in the United States.

The United Nations decides if the person fits the definition of a refugee and whether to refer the person to the United States or to another country for resettlement. Only the most vulnerable are referred, accounting for less than than 1 percent of refugees worldwide. Some people spend years waiting in refugee camps.

5. Interview with State Department contractors.

6. First background check.

7. Higher-level background check for some.

8. Another background check.

The refugee’s name is run through law enforcement and intelligence databases for terrorist or criminal history. Some go through a higher-level clearance before they can continue. A third background check was introduced in 2008 for Iraqis but has since been expanded to all refugees ages 14 to 65.

9. First fingerprint screening; photo taken.

10. Second fingerprint screening.

11. Third fingerprint screening.

The refugee’s fingerprints are screened against F.B.I. and Homeland Security databases, which contain watch list information and past immigration encounters, including if the refugee previously applied for a visa at a United States embassy. Fingerprints are also checked against those collected by the Defense Department during operations in Iraq.

12. Case reviewed at United States immigration headquarters.

13. Some cases referred for additional review.

Syrian applicants must undergo these two additional steps. Each is reviewed by a United States Citizenship and Immigration Services refugee specialist. Cases with “national security indicators” are given to the Homeland Security Department’s fraud detection unit.

14. Extensive, in-person interview with Homeland Security officer.

Most of the interviews with Syrians have been done in Jordan and Turkey.

15. Homeland Security approval is required.

16. Screening for contagious diseases.

17. Cultural orientation class.

18. Matched with an American resettlement agency.

19. Multi-agency security check before leaving for the United States.

Because of the long amount of time between the initial screening and departure, officials conduct a final check before the refugee leaves for the United States.

20. Final security check at an American airport.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by becareful2 View Post
I can, since my family are legal immigrants. We filled out the paperwork and waited to be notified for an interview. That's the background check done in the country of origin. They went through our profiles, asked us a bunch of questions, and determined whether to admit or reject our application. The rest is self-explanatory. I was a child at the time so I may have forgotten all about the medical checkups.

The 7 countries on Obama's & Trump's list don't have adequate info on who the applicants are, and the FBI has even less info on them.
It seems that the process is restrictive and long. From what I'm reading now it takes between 18-24months and the majority of those accepted are children and adults over 60.

So is the real problem the fact that their identities cannot be verified? How can that be addressed beyond the existing efforts in the current process?
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post #55 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:42 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

The ban was not intended to do anything about illegal immigration. We need much more extensive border control such as physical barriers, increased manpower, effective expulsion of illegals caught here, and effective deterrence in order to reduce illegal entry.

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post #56 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 04:05 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

Iran has been in war / turmoil for some time?

Yet Pakistan is OK? Chetnia? Afghanistan? North Korea?
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post #57 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 04:09 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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The ban was not intended to do anything about illegal immigration. We need much more extensive border control such as physical barriers, increased manpower, effective expulsion of illegals caught here, and effective deterrence in order to reduce illegal entry.
But not heavy handed prosecution of those job creators hiring them...
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post #58 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 04:10 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

Again, Trump needs to shut down comments and let it go through the court system. Those who support Trump, and I am one of them, believe his efforts are to protect our citizens from potential terrorist and he gets credit for that. Those who don't, believe either his efforts are anti-Muslim, can make it sound anti-Muslim to pin the tail on President Trump as a xenophobe, or both. In the meantime, and hopefully nothing will happen, let the judge and the appellate court take the fall if it does. Personally, I'd rather see 1000 citizens from these previously mentioned countries sent packing than one U.S. citizen hurt by a bad ones actions.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #59 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 04:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Originally Posted by Keke24 View Post
It seems that the process is restrictive and long. From what I'm reading now it takes between 18-24months and the majority of those accepted are children and adults over 60.

So is the real problem the fact that their identities cannot be verified? How can that be addressed beyond the existing efforts in the current process?
I currently have relatives overseas who have waited about ten years to come here. Their children were minors when the application was submitted, and are now adults and married. Many of the pictures of refugees flooding into Europe showed mostly grown men, not old women and children as Obama claimed.
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post #60 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 04:19 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
What is strange is that the ban does almost nothing to stop illegal immigration. Presumably known terrorists will just walk across the boarder like millions of other people have done. So I don't see how the ban helps.

A secure boarder would be great if we can find a practical way to do it.
There are many aspects of immigration that need to be overhauled. It cannot all be done in one action. A lot of the fixing is just in enforcing the laws we have.
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