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post #61 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 04:27 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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I currently have relatives overseas who have waited about ten years to come here. Their children were minors when the application was submitted, and are now adults and married. Many of the pictures of refugees flooding into Europe showed mostly grown men, not old women and children as Obama claimed.
Syrian Refugees: Here's How the Screening Process Works | Time.com

Syria Regional Refugee Response - Regional Overview

It's proving difficult to verify the statistics on refugees coming into the U.S. The stats from the U.N. indicate that only 25.5% of all registered Syrian refugees are males between 18-25. And that article above suggests less than 2% males of "combat age" (without defining what that is) were admitted in the U.S. at the time when the article was written.

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post #62 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 04:45 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

I agree, but we have dug ourselves a deep hole. We have people who have lived illegally for decades in the US, working, raising families, contributing to society. Millions of illegal immigrants who despite their status are part of our society and economy.

We never should have gotten into this situation but we are here now, and we need to find a good path forward.

If I knew how to perfectly secure the boarder, I would, then legalize everyone already here. Of course if we don't secure the boarder, legalizing people just gives an incentive to others to sneak in.

OTOH, I am not up for deporting people who have been her a long time and have become a functioning part of our society - especially since our rules have made it so difficult to get here legally. (difficult in ways that do not enhance security)


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There are many aspects of immigration that need to be overhauled. It cannot all be done in one action. A lot of the fixing is just in enforcing the laws we have.
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post #63 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 04:46 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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It seems that the process is restrictive and long. From what I'm reading now it takes between 18-24months and the majority of those accepted are children and adults over 60.
As is often done, stats can be selectively quoted to support a point of view. Children (under 14) and over 5 make up about 55% of the refugees from Syria. so about 45% are men and women between 14 and 50. only about 3.2% are over 50.

Also note that in Syria, Christians make up about 10% of the population. But only about 3% of the refugees. I've read that the reason for this is that while Christians are in much more danger in Syria than Muslims, the people controlling the refugee programs in Syria will not allow many Christians to get refugee status. For one thing, Christian refugees are in danger from Muslim refugees. So they have to live in segregated camps. And these camps have little to no access to the refugee programs.

"As of Monday, 1,515 Syrian refugees fleeing the civil war in their homeland had been admitted since the beginning of July, and a total of 6,726 since FY 2016 began on October 1, according to State Department Refugee Processing Center data.
Of the July arrivals, 1,501 (99.0 percent) were Sunnis, and three (0.19 percent) were Christians. The other 11 (0.72 percent) were other Muslims.

Of the 6,726 total Syrian refugee arrivals since the beginning of FY 2016, 6,625 (98.4 percent) were Sunnis and 23 (0.3 percent) were Christians – including 15 described simply as “Christian,” five Catholics, two Orthodox and one Greek Orthodox adherent.
The remaining 78 (1.1 percent) comprised 49 refugees described in the data simply as “Moslem,” 17 Shi’a Muslims, 10 Yazidis, one of “no religion” and one “other religion.”

To reach its 10,000 target by September 30, the administration will need to admit average of 1,597 each month for July, August and September. With a week of this month to go, and 1,515 admitted as of early Monday, the July target looks to be easily within reach.
Of the 1,515 refugees from Syria admitted since the beginning of July, 363 (23.9 percent) are men between the ages of 14 and 50, another 322 (21.2 percent) are women aged 14-50, and 784 (51.7 percent) are children aged under 14 – 371 boys and 413 girls.
Their ethnic breakdown is: 1,472 Arabs, 22 Kurds, 18 Turkmen and three Armenians.

Of the 6,726 admitted since in FY 2016, 1,661 (24.6 percent) are men 14-50, while 1,537 (22.8 percent) are women aged 14-50. Another 3,240 (48.1 percent) are children aged under 14, made up of 1,658 boys and 1,582 girls."


6,726 Syrian Refugees Admitted to U.S. So Far in FY16--But Only 23 Are Christians

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So is the real problem the fact that their identities cannot be verified? How can that be addressed beyond the existing efforts in the current process?
My understanding is that this is exactly the reason for the current, mostly short term, ban...to see if our gov, and those countries can find a way to work together to improve the way refugees are vetted.

An example that I have comes from a relative of mine who lives in the Middle East and my experience in East Africa.

Each of the these ethic (religious) groups have subtle cultural/lingual characteristics that can be used to identify where they come from. Just about every group has it's own dialect. So an interviewer knows these subtle differences, they will be able to interview a person and know if they are lying about where they come from. This takes a person with a very specific background. A person who learned a language in college will not be able to do this type of interview.

In some places you can id a person to the block they live on based on dialect, word choice, etc.

There are also ways to vet people based on their intent. For example, there is probably a way to interview a person who is an ISIS member who is trying to sneak into the USA with fake papers that will get them to spill the beans on their real intent. We used to do this when I was in MI with other terrorist types who were trying to cover their intent. It takes very subtle interview techniques, but it works.

We have to look at better, perhaps more creative, ways to vet people. And we need to make sure that the people of minority groups have the same refugee rights and the majority groups.

Again, the idea of a ban is to see if we can come up with more equitable and better ways to work with the countries that are the terrorist breeding hotbeds right now... the ones who have little to no social structure at this point.
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post #64 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 04:47 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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I agree that the Trump administration did a poor job of preparing the EO with relevant facts. My point was this Judge Robart did not address the constitutional legality of the case but mostly based his ruling on his false facts. But I made a mistake with the Article II reference. I was thinking of something else. It's Title 8 of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Thank you for admitting your mistake. As you said the Trump adm. did a poor job preparing the EO and defending it after the fact. But I can't really blame them for not being able to defend it. The EO itself is just a placebo that doesn't fix anything other than placate the overblown fears that some one from one of those countries is coming to kill us. The fact remains, according the data you provided in your OP, there is little real threat of a terrorist attack and an even smaller one from those few countries given all the other procedures already in place.

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post #65 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 04:54 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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I agree, but we have dug ourselves a deep hole. We have people who have lived illegally for decades in the US, working, raising families, contributing to society. Millions of illegal immigrants who despite their status are part of our society and economy.
I agree. And I believe that our government created this problem by letting it go on for a very long time. It's a horrid mess.

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We never should have gotten into this situation but we are here now, and we need to find a good path forward.
Exactly

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If I knew how to perfectly secure the boarder, I would, then legalize everyone already here. Of course if we don't secure the boarder, legalizing people just gives an incentive to others to sneak in.
I agree. We will never 'perfectly' secure the boarder. But we can mostly secure it. We can change our immigration laws so that individuals who want to work in the USA from the south can much more easily get valid work permits.. make it in their best interest to go through the process. And put steep fines on companies who do not follow the law of only hiring documented workers.

The way it is right now, our government and businesses who hire illegals have created a market for the coyote who collect thousands of dollars to sneak people in the USA. The coyote could be put out of business if these same people could easily get work permits at a low cost can just come here legally via public transportation.

Our current system helps the illegals be exploited.

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
OTOH, I am not up for deporting people who have been her a long time and have become a functioning part of our society - especially since our rules have made it so difficult to get here legally. (difficult in ways that do not enhance security)
I agree. At this point I do not agree with deporting those who have become functioning part of our society.

I'm 100% ok with deporting those with criminal records for violent crimes, drug crimes, and gang members.

And I'm ok with deporting everyone who illegally enters the USA form this day forward.
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post #66 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 05:11 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

Really? Grant visas for manual labor?

I just had half of the McMansion painted. All American guys, amazing quality work, $3k. A colleague hired a crew from South of the wall for half that for similar size work.

Next month it's $1k worth of pruning going to another company hiring Americans only. Most of my neighbors... You guessed it.

The race to the bottom has only one winner and it ain't us.
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post #67 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Originally Posted by Ynot View Post
Thank you for admitting your mistake. As you said the Trump adm. did a poor job preparing the EO and defending it after the fact. But I can't really blame them for not being able to defend it. The EO itself is just a placebo that doesn't fix anything other than placate the overblown fears that some one from one of those countries is coming to kill us. The fact remains, according the data you provided in your OP, there is little real threat of a terrorist attack and an even smaller one from those few countries given all the other procedures already in place.
Disagree. The Islamic radicals only need to get in one good mass attack to send our country spiraling. I subscribe to the better safe than sorry approach on this. We know they have infiltrated the refugee population, so it's foolish to let them in without a better vetting process.
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post #68 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
I agree, but we have dug ourselves a deep hole. We have people who have lived illegally for decades in the US, working, raising families, contributing to society. Millions of illegal immigrants who despite their status are part of our society and economy.

We never should have gotten into this situation but we are here now, and we need to find a good path forward.

If I knew how to perfectly secure the boarder, I would, then legalize everyone already here. Of course if we don't secure the boarder, legalizing people just gives an incentive to others to sneak in.

OTOH, I am not up for deporting people who have been her a long time and have become a functioning part of our society - especially since our rules have made it so difficult to get here legally. (difficult in ways that do not enhance security)
In other words, come here illegally, hide long enough to put down roots, and you get to stay for life.
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post #69 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 05:31 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

We accept tens of thousands of deaths a year from cars and guns. A large attack will only send us spiraling if we let our fear rule us.

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Originally Posted by becareful2 View Post
Disagree. The Islamic radicals only need to get in one good mass attack to send our country spiraling. I subscribe to the better safe than sorry approach on this. We know they have infiltrated the refugee population, so it's foolish to let them in without a better vetting process.
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post #70 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 05:33 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

That is the problem. As long as the boarder is transparent, then if we legalize residents, we encourage more illegal entry. OTOH, the harm we do to families and societies by deporting millions of long term illegal residents is very severe.

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In other words, come here illegally, hide long enough to put down roots, and you get to stay for life.


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post #71 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 05:34 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Really? Grant visas for manual labor?

I just had half of the McMansion painted. All American guys, amazing quality work, $3k. A colleague hired a crew from South of the wall for half that for similar size work.

Next month it's $1k worth of pruning going to another company hiring Americans only. Most of my neighbors... You guessed it.

The race to the bottom has only one winner and it ain't us.
Yes, some kind of work permit. What's wrong with people having a legal permit for working in the USA?
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post #72 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 05:37 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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We accept tens of thousands of deaths a year from cars and guns. A large attack will only send us spiraling if we let our fear rule us.
The attacks on 9/11 spent the USA spiraling financially for a long time. And it was really a pretty small attack. Imagine what a wide spread dirty bomb attack would to if it hit someplace like the financial center of NYC... something that killed many thousands more and put the financial district out of business. Yes, it would take only one large attack to disrupt the USA for months, if not years.
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post #73 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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We accept tens of thousands of deaths a year from cars and guns. A large attack will only send us spiraling if we let our fear rule us.
So rather than take practical preventive measures to protect our people, we should just compare deaths from terrorist attacks to other causes of deaths and rationalize that it's no big deal? Of course, we will bounce back, but why should we have to go through all of that when there is a logical course of action available today? To this day, no one has been able to quantify the real cost of 9/11. The first responders who ran into the Twin Towers are now suffering from incurable illnesses. The untold hundreds of billions, perhaps trillions, lost on Wall St; the rippling effects that spidered out from NY to the rest of the country.

Why do we have to be the world's savior every single time there's a crisis? How many refugees are being taken in by Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the other Muslim countries?
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post #74 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 06:01 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

I wish people could get away from the political divide and try to find a solution to a very difficult problem.

1) We want secure boarders, but the proposals to do that look to be very expensive.

2) We want to allow long term productive members of society to stay - but doing that without secure boarders just encourages more immigration.

3) We want a system that effectively vetts people, but which doesn't take so long that following the rules for immigration is impractical.


I think these are hard problems and not going to be solved by simplistic solutions or by people trying to torpedo other ideas.

I think #1 is the toughest People are very resourceful, and our boarders are very long. We have the technology to stop everyone, but deploying it over thousands of miles of boarders would be very expensive. We also have to be aware that people will change behaviors, from walking to boats, to getting into Canada and then across the even larger boarder etc.

We are in a world where the cost to transport a person from anywhere to anywhere else is only a few hundred dollars, so geographical barriers are not as useful as they might seem.





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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
I agree. And I believe that our government created this problem by letting it go on for a very long time. It's a horrid mess.



Exactly



I agree. We will never 'perfectly' secure the boarder. But we can mostly secure it. We can change our immigration laws so that individuals who want to work in the USA from the south can much more easily get valid work permits.. make it in their best interest to go through the process. And put steep fines on companies who do not follow the law of only hiring documented workers.

The way it is right now, our government and businesses who hire illegals have created a market for the coyote who collect thousands of dollars to sneak people in the USA. The coyote could be put out of business if these same people could easily get work permits at a low cost can just come here legally via public transportation.

Our current system helps the illegals be exploited.



I agree. At this point I do not agree with deporting those who have become functioning part of our society.

I'm 100% ok with deporting those with criminal records for violent crimes, drug crimes, and gang members.

And I'm ok with deporting everyone who illegally enters the USA form this day forward.
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post #75 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

Build the wall. The cost is chump change compared to what W & O spent on their stimulus bills.
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