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post #91 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 10:11 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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As I see it, there are two kinds of threats from these refugees: ISIS members masquerading as refugees who plan to commit terrorist attacks, and the second are those who don't want to assimilate into western culture. Both are threats that we should take seriously. I feel it is too late for Germany and most of Europe, but it's still not too late for us.
The violent crime wave in Europe is a direct result of massive immigration of militant Muslims who want to tear down western society. They are gang raping women and live streaming it on facebook. The rapes and assaults committed by these members of the Religion of Peace is destroying thousands and thousands of lives. These immigrants are marching in the streets and demanding Sharia law be imposed. They are openly and aggressively harassing women who wear clothing that doesn't comport with their Muslim requirements.

Ultimately the larger threat is likely the organized strategy of overwhelming non-Muslim nations with sheer numbers. Part of their strategy is a high birth rate, too. The average number of children amongst traditional European citizens may be below 2 now. The immigrants are intentionally birthing large families in order to outnumber the indigenous citizens.

But that makes me a racist anti-Islamic xenophobe to point out true facts of what is going on in Europe. Which is probably why it has become illegal or socially impossible to say such things if you live in Europe where this is happening.

Lots of videos available online and numerous real news stories to confirm all this if you're a denier.

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post #92 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 10:17 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Did you believe that Obama's ban of all immigration/refugees from Syria was "destructive on individual level and completely useless in terms of national security"?
I might have, if it had actually happened. But since it didn't, kind of no point talking about it.

But I will say, I didn't give a blank check to Obama. I mean I preferred him over both W and our number 45. But I do have problems with how long it has taken for Iraqi's who put their life on the line for US soldiers to come over here. Many interpreters have been completely rejected with no cause. And I do think that is dangerous and stupid. Those interpreters saved US soldiers lives and put their lives and the lives of their family in danger for our soldiers. That after the fact we wouldn't take them in is both disgraceful and dangerous. It decreases the motivation for people to help our soldiers. I am not a fan of any policy that I believe will have long term negative consequences for our men and women on the ground in a war zone.
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post #93 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 10:28 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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3) Why do we want massive immigration? What is wrong with a difficult process to gain lawful admission? Too much immigration is demonstrably bad for a country. Metered immigration of the right kinds of people can be very healthy. We currently allow far too many immigrants in (legally and illegally).
I don't recall people protesting when Germans, Japanese, Cubans, Vietnamese, or Russians came into the USA by the millions. It's not like we were at war with them or anything.

Immigration may be bad, but having a nation of people who want to run their own sandwich shop or janitorial services company instead of making hard choices and going into STEM is just as bad.
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post #94 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 11:36 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

The problem is that a wall by itself won't work. People will tunnel under (as they already do to transport drugs), build ramps over, etc. The wall needs to be guarded and it needs additional technical systems to detect tunneling etc. We need to see a a proposal that is complete enough to make a realistic long term cost estimate.

2) they broke the law but its a law that in the past was no better enforced than speeding laws. It would be like suddenly deciding to use cell phone records to give billions of citations for speeding, suspend millions of licenses, and through tens of thousands of people in prison for multiple violations. I agree thought that legalizing those here only makes sense if we secure the boarder - but at the same time changing the defacto rules will cause great hardship.

3) We want lots of smart talented people who will add to our society. Immigration done right is a way to collect some of the best people from around the world. I don't know why you think we have too many immigrants now? Near me I see lots of recent immigrants contributing to our country. Some run ethnic food restaurants that I enjoy, others are world-leading scientists and engineers.



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1) Yes it is going to be expensive. Mexico built a wall on their southern border. Most other countries have physical walls. We can afford to build a wall and install other effective measures along the most critical parts of the borders. The alternative of unsecured borders will be fatal to our country. This has been proven throughout history repeatedly.

2) Why? They broke the law coming here and staying here. Many live in non-English speaking communities and have no interest in assimilating. Allowing some to gain lawful resident status only makes sense if it is a benefit to those already legally here and does not penalize others who are attempting to come here legally.

3) Why do we want massive immigration? What is wrong with a difficult process to gain lawful admission? Too much immigration is demonstrably bad for a country. Metered immigration of the right kinds of people can be very healthy. We currently allow far too many immigrants in (legally and illegally).
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post #95 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 07:13 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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But that makes me a racist anti-Islamic xenophobe to point out true facts of what is going on in Europe. Which is probably why it has become illegal or socially impossible to say such things if you live in Europe where this is happening.
People/societies are conditioned and controlled by "rule makers" via negatively labeling those that do not conform to desired thought; the purpose being to initiate reaction that isolates and punishes the undesirable non-conformist. "Racist", anti-Islamic, and xenophobe have become extremely effective buzzwords that, like the old "she a witch" requires little more than a single acquisition for someone to be branded, marginalized, and silenced; their actual behavior to warrant such characterization is of no consequence while the person(s) making the charge are considered, astute, unique and admirable.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #96 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 08:55 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Disagree. The Islamic radicals only need to get in one good mass attack to send our country spiraling. I subscribe to the better safe than sorry approach on this. We know they have infiltrated the refugee population, so it's foolish to let them in without a better vetting process.
Of course, we all cower in fear, hiding under our beds, afraid of our own shadows and pray the government cater to those fears by banning a few thousand immigrants from seven countries, which coincidentally Obama (remember the guy who wasn't doing enough) has been raining down drone strikes on for 8 years. So by your logic, we should also place bans on cars (which kill thousands of times more than terrorists), swimming pools, hospital stays, sex and any and all forms of human activities that could cause massive damage.
Or do you just not understand that even if we successfully stopped anybody (because anybody could be a terrorist from these countries) from coming in that it would not do one thing to stop a terrorist intent on wreaking havoc. As I said before, criminals don't comply with the law, that is why they are criminals. But disrupting everyone else's life is fine as long as YOU feel safer.
I have to ask, do you cheerlead anti-gun laws as well? Because you know, we just can't stand around with our hands in our pockets waiting for something to happen. In the meantime:
The annual chance of an American dying in a terrorist attack committed by a refugee is one in 3.6 billion

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post #97 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 08:59 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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People/societies are conditioned and controlled by "rule makers" via negatively labeling those that do not conform to desired thought; the purpose being to initiate reaction that isolates and punishes the undesirable non-conformist. "Racist", anti-Islamic, and xenophobe have become extremely effective buzzwords that, like the old "she a witch" requires little more than a single acquisition for someone to be branded, marginalized, and silenced; their actual behavior to warrant such characterization is of no consequence while the person(s) making the charge are considered, astute, unique and admirable.
Hmm, similar to how Americans have been conditioned to characterize all Muslims (especially from these seven countries) as potential terrorists, and anyone who does not conform to that desired thought is isolated and punished for having an undesirable non-conformist idea?

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post #98 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 08:59 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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I don't recall people protesting when Germans, Japanese, Cubans, Vietnamese, or Russians came into the USA by the millions. It's not like we were at war with them or anything.

Immigration may be bad, but having a nation of people who want to run their own sandwich shop or janitorial services company instead of making hard choices and going into STEM is just as bad.
I actually do recall numerous times there were issues with large scale immigration.

As to STEM, were you here in the 1980's when all the tech companies lobbied Congress to bring in hordes of foreign engineers? I do, as I was a semiconductor engineer at the time. While corporations were laying off American engineers by the tens of thousands, they were bringing in foreign engineers at half the wages. I know many former engineers who left the industry over the last 30 years due to such wage suppression.
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post #99 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 09:11 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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The problem is that a wall by itself won't work. People will tunnel under (as they already do to transport drugs), build ramps over, etc. The wall needs to be guarded and it needs additional technical systems to detect tunneling etc. We need to see a a proposal that is complete enough to make a realistic long term cost estimate.

2) they broke the law but its a law that in the past was no better enforced than speeding laws. It would be like suddenly deciding to use cell phone records to give billions of citations for speeding, suspend millions of licenses, and through tens of thousands of people in prison for multiple violations. I agree thought that legalizing those here only makes sense if we secure the boarder - but at the same time changing the defacto rules will cause great hardship.

3) We want lots of smart talented people who will add to our society. Immigration done right is a way to collect some of the best people from around the world. I don't know why you think we have too many immigrants now? Near me I see lots of recent immigrants contributing to our country. Some run ethnic food restaurants that I enjoy, others are world-leading scientists and engineers.
Trump and the Republicans have called for a comprehensive system at the border. For years this has been the position. Physical wall, technology, manpower, enforcement of existing laws, etc.

Your example of speeding is a bad one. Those who are here illegally are still here illegally. Every day they stay they are committing a federal crime. Enforcing existing laws is not changing the rules, just enforcing them. Starting to enforce speeding laws would only punish those who break speed laws in the future.

There are many valuable immigrants. Those are the people who come here to take part in the American Dream. They come here to be American. However, unfettered immigration even of valuable people can be harmful. They dilute our culture rather than add to it when the sheer numbers become too large. We have many enclaves of multi-generational immigrants within the USA where English is not spoken and the people live as if they were in their home country. Immigration needs to be metered to a healthy level, and we need to ensure we are inviting in those who add to our country, not detract.
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post #100 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 09:14 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Of course, we all cower in fear, hiding under our beds, afraid of our own shadows and pray the government cater to those fears by banning a few thousand immigrants from seven countries, which coincidentally Obama (remember the guy who wasn't doing enough) has been raining down drone strikes on for 8 years. So by your logic, we should also place bans on cars (which kill thousands of times more than terrorists), swimming pools, hospital stays, sex and any and all forms of human activities that could cause massive damage.
Or do you just not understand that even if we successfully stopped anybody (because anybody could be a terrorist from these countries) from coming in that it would not do one thing to stop a terrorist intent on wreaking havoc. As I said before, criminals don't comply with the law, that is why they are criminals. But disrupting everyone else's life is fine as long as YOU feel safer.
I have to ask, do you cheerlead anti-gun laws as well? Because you know, we just can't stand around with our hands in our pockets waiting for something to happen.
Not a strong line of argument. Mega bucks are spent on each of these examples that you cite in order to make them more safe. What is wrong with doing the same with potential terrorists. And yes, I could see temporary bans for each of your examples working, if the context demanded it. For example, your sex partner receives a needle stick injury, so you have a temporary ban from having non-protected sex while you wait for the blood test results.

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post #101 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 09:33 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Not a strong line of argument. Mega bucks are spent on each of these examples that you cite in order to make them more safe. What is wrong with doing the same with potential terrorists. And yes, I could see temporary bans for each of your examples working, if the context demanded it. For example, your sex partner receives a needle stick injury, so you have a temporary ban from having non-protected sex while you wait for the blood test results.
I am not the one making that argument, I was only using examples of similar arguments that have been made. The facts are that we WASTE millions of dollars each year to incrementally decrease the danger of these products and activities, all in order to save just one more life. Being that the annual chance of an American dying in a terrorist attack committed by a refugee is one in 3.6 billion, the reasoning for the ban is analogous to wasting tons of money to make something safer than it already is all in order to save just one more life.

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post #102 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 10:14 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Hmm, similar to how Americans have been conditioned to characterize all Muslims (especially from these seven countries) as potential terrorists, and anyone who does not conform to that desired thought is isolated and punished for having an undesirable non-conformist idea?
If the shoe fits Y; you know the rest. Specifically in this situation, I think everybody knows the majority of folks following the Muslim religion are good folks. It unfortunate those that fly planes into buildings, cut of heads, and suicide bomb claim they do it in the name of the Muslim religion and the good ones often appear to do little to condemn it. Seems they kinda go along to get along. Its like my daddy use to say, "it makes everybody from that side of town look bad."

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.

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post #103 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 02:22 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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If the shoe fits Y; you know the rest. Specifically in this situation, I think everybody knows the majority of folks following the Muslim religion are good folks. It unfortunate those that fly planes into buildings, cut of heads, and suicide bomb claim they do it in the name of the Muslim religion and the good ones often appear to do much to condemn it. Seems they kinda go along to get along. Its like my daddy use to say, "it makes everybody from that side of town look bad."
So I should ask. Does the shoe fit, Vlad? Because you were the only one of us trying them on. Specifically, in this situation, as I have pointed out - refugees from those seven countries have killed exactly 0 Americans 1975. So those of you cheerleading this placebo, and then defending it are the ones guilty of type of finger pointing you spoke about previously. Now if Trump had had any balls and included Saudi Arabia, the UAR, Egypt etc on his list, I might have been able to get on board.
But as it was he simply used a phantom menace to appear to be doing something to placate his supporters. Why not just issue an EO detailing new vetting procedures. It isn't as though he had not been talking about this issue for months during the campaign. Surely he had some ideas, or his aids did, as to what should be done.
But he addressed your unfounded fears, so all is good.

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post #104 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 02:57 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

Y'all don't get it.

Political asylum and refugee status are granted in the USA not for humanitarian reasons but for political gain. It's been like that since the day i met a couple from Afghanistan, a few from Iran, and a few from Commie Central America countries.

It's all about the administration de jour appearing to do well. In Iran, a couple religions were prosecuted and asylum was granted freely in the USA (Zoroastrian and Baha'i as a couple of my buddies were). Iraq? Christian's were easy asylum cases, anyone else... Afghanistan? Pretty much everyone. Ended up fixing the Zoroastrian guy with an Indian girl, also Zoroastrian. They married and all that.

Extreme vetting? Like that done to Cubans, SE Asians, or Russians? Good luck there. One of my guys is from Burma then China then Vietnam then USA. I'm sure the Burmese BMV has his files
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post #105 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 10:55 PM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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I think that the above is what I was suggesting.



I believe that there are places where a wall/fence of some sort would help. Don't forget that some of those coming here are not coming for legal work. They are coming for the drug trafficking. And let's not forget about the human trafficking.
The wall in the Mexican/Texas border would indeed be pure decoration unless the way in which Mexican nationals that do have money can just come and put a business up anywhere in Texas (it's the only state I am aware that has just an easy way to get a green card, that once received, doesn't get checked until 5 years later). All the Mexican national has to do is make sure that the business makes at least $5,000 a month! With $30,000 a year, you can open a bunch of small businesses in towns across the Texas border. It's how these border towns boomed in the past couple of years. Now, I don't know about other states, but in Texas that is really all you need to get a green card and it's good for 5 whole years. You and your children are legal here and you can cross the US border to Mexico without any issues.

I have 3 sets of parents that are legally here this way. One family has a day care, the other has a dollar store, and the last has an auto insurance company. Out of the 3 families, one of them is the child of a very rich drug lord. There is money laundering going on left and right in these towns with adult day care centers and senior home health centers as well. If you think that terrorists are not involved in similar ways to come to the USA, you are clearly mistaken. The huge problem with drugs in Latin American and Central American countries are a distraction to allow people with deadly intentions worse than bringing in drugs to our kids schools are what we need to also be concerned with. They are coming to wipe us out!

I don't know how easy it is in other states to get a green card if you have money to put up a business, but Texas sucks rocks in that regard.

Good things come to those who wait...greater things come to those who get off their a$$ and do anything to make it happen.
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