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post #121 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Of course, we all cower in fear, hiding under our beds, afraid of our own shadows and pray the government cater to those fears by banning a few thousand immigrants from seven countries, which coincidentally Obama (remember the guy who wasn't doing enough) has been raining down drone strikes on for 8 years. So by your logic, we should also place bans on cars (which kill thousands of times more than terrorists), swimming pools, hospital stays, sex and any and all forms of human activities that could cause massive damage.
Or do you just not understand that even if we successfully stopped anybody (because anybody could be a terrorist from these countries) from coming in that it would not do one thing to stop a terrorist intent on wreaking havoc. As I said before, criminals don't comply with the law, that is why they are criminals. But disrupting everyone else's life is fine as long as YOU feel safer.
I have to ask, do you cheerlead anti-gun laws as well? Because you know, we just can't stand around with our hands in our pockets waiting for something to happen. In the meantime:
The annual chance of an American dying in a terrorist attack committed by a refugee is one in 3.6 billion
I think it's very intellectually dishonest to compare vehicular deaths, swimming pool accidents, hospital stays, etc., to terrorism. The former group affects the individuals, while the latter affects groups, cities, states, and even countries. This is not an irrational fear. When a car is found to be defective, the car manufacturer and the Department of Transportation both take measures to reduce and or to prevent future incidents. They don't sit around and use your ridiculous logic that since the number of accidents is less than xyz, that no measures need to be taken. When a toy is involved in child suffocation, the manufacturer recalls all of it; they don't rationalize that since only 3 children have died, that it shouldn't concern the rest of the children in the country. Your logic is incredible.

During this halt, anywhere from 800 to 1100 refugees from these countries have been allowed into the United States. About a third of them are from Syria, where ISIS still have a stronghold. They don't need to send in thousands or even hundreds; they just need a few to carry out a carefully orchestrated mass attack. They play offense while our government constantly plays defense, because people like you don't want to inconvenience people who shout death to America, and who have no intention of assimilating.

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post #122 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 12:10 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Being that the annual chance of an American dying in a terrorist attack committed by a refugee is one in 3.6 billion, the reasoning for the ban is analogous to wasting tons of money to make something safer than it already is all in order to save just one more life.
You keep using this statistic. I have to suspect you got it from some sort of "talking point" memo or political diatribe. It doesn't make sense, unless you are fixated on the "refugee" portion, in which case I think you are being intentionally dishonest with regards to this discussion.

There have been AT LEAST 3000 US deaths since (and including) 9/11 caused by terrorists. Just think--the 9/11 terrorists (largely Saudis on visas), Nidal Hassan (Fort Hood shooter), San Bernadino shooter (wife on a visa), Orlando shooter, Boston Bombers...

Over the last (roughly) 15 years, 3000/15 = 200 per year. Since the US population is a little over 300,000,000, that's 200/300,000,000 (roughly) = one in 1,500,000. I don't want to quibble over this rough approximation, but it's clearly QUITE DIFFERENT than the 3.6 billion number you are throwing around.

And I say it's dishonest if you try to parse this and hide behind a "refugee" qualifier, because that's NOT what this thread is about. It's about immigration, refugee or not, that was banned by the Trump Executive Order. In fact, the State of Washington which filed for the stay was found to have standing NOT because of refugees, but because of harm to its visiting faculty to universities, employees, residents, etc. So if you want to talk about the ban in this thread, I'm going to call any sub-qualifier "refugee" status as an attempt to cook the statistics through intellectual dishonesty.
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post #123 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 07:04 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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The problem is if you are wrong we are going to create a whole bunch of radicals (google blowback) where as if I am wrong nothing changes since 0 Americans have been killed by anyone from these seven countries.
For clarification, I am interpreting what you're saying as because zero Americans have been killed by anyone from these countries, no Americans will be killed by anyone from these countries. Am I interpreting you correctly? If you really believe that, I understand, but remain unconvinced of, your argument.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #124 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 07:28 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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I think it's very intellectually dishonest to compare vehicular deaths, swimming pool accidents, hospital stays, etc., to terrorism. The former group affects the individuals, while the latter affects groups, cities, states, and even countries. This is not an irrational fear. When a car is found to be defective, the car manufacturer and the Department of Transportation both take measures to reduce and or to prevent future incidents. They don't sit around and use your ridiculous logic that since the number of accidents is less than xyz, that no measures need to be taken. When a toy is involved in child suffocation, the manufacturer recalls all of it; they don't rationalize that since only 3 children have died, that it shouldn't concern the rest of the children in the country. Your logic is incredible.

During this halt, anywhere from 800 to 1100 refugees from these countries have been allowed into the United States. About a third of them are from Syria, where ISIS still have a stronghold. They don't need to send in thousands or even hundreds; they just need a few to carry out a carefully orchestrated mass attack. They play offense while our government constantly plays defense, because people like you don't want to inconvenience people who shout death to America, and who have no intention of assimilating.
Actually it has nothing to do with "inconveniencing people who shout death to America" In fact of the two of us I would be the more likely to want to inconvenience exactly those people, rather than get sucked into some sense that something was done, when the reality is that the ban did NOTHING to make you safer (I already feel too safe and for one wish we could get over the irrational paranoia that seems to have gripped much of the nation along with its largely militant nationalistic citizens). Mainly because it a PHANTOM menace that terrorists are coming from these seven countries. You do realize that at the same time thousands are pouring in from all the other countries. Instead of simply fixing your bob-boo with a band aid as Trump has done he could have just issued actually instruction on how the vetting was going to work going forward, for all immigrants. Rest easy my friend for you have been saved from the phantom boogie man!

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post #125 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 07:46 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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You keep using this statistic. I have to suspect you got it from some sort of "talking point" memo or political diatribe. It doesn't make sense, unless you are fixated on the "refugee" portion, in which case I think you are being intentionally dishonest with regards to this discussion.
Actually it came from the CATO institute article I posted previously. You should read it instead of going off half ****ed.
There have been AT LEAST 3000 US deaths since (and including) 9/11 caused by terrorists. Just think--the 9/11 terrorists (largely Saudis on visas), Nidal Hassan (Fort Hood shooter), San Bernadino shooter (wife on a visa), Orlando shooter, Boston Bombers...
Yep, at least 3000 over a 16 year period. 3000 is way too many, but then again not 1 was killed by anyone from these countries and the ban did nothing to stop it if it would
Over the last (roughly) 15 years, 3000/15 = 200 per year. Since the US population is a little over 300,000,000, that's 200/300,000,000 (roughly) = one in 1,500,000. I don't want to quibble over this rough approximation, but it's clearly QUITE DIFFERENT than the 3.6 billion number you are throwing around.
It is a good thing you are not a statistician. You divide the estimated annual deaths by the estimate daily population and come up with a "figure". Now take some actual figures and do some real math as opposed to guessing. And make sure you multiply the actual population by the 365 days in a year. Anyways the figure came from the Cato Institute, so argue with them if you want.
And I say it's dishonest if you try to parse this and hide behind a "refugee" qualifier, because that's NOT what this thread is about. It's about immigration, refugee or not, that was banned by the Trump Executive Order. In fact, the State of Washington which filed for the stay was found to have standing NOT because of refugees, but because of harm to its visiting faculty to universities, employees, residents, etc. So if you want to talk about the ban in this thread, I'm going to call any sub-qualifier "refugee" status as an attempt to cook the statistics through intellectual dishonesty.
You can say my argument is dishonest only because you disagree with it, but that doesn't change the fact that everything I have stated is factually correct. No Americans have been killed from a terrorist act committed by anyone from these seven countries. The ban does nothing but assuage some irrational fear you have that they are all blood thirsty murder criminals intent on gang raping women and killing your children

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post #126 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 07:52 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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For clarification, I am interpreting what you're saying as because zero Americans have been killed by anyone from these countries, no Americans will be killed by anyone from these countries. Am I interpreting you correctly? If you really believe that, I understand, but remain unconvinced of, your argument.
Apparently you half way understand it. In the meantime thousands are still coming in from countries from which Americans have died as a result of actual terrorist act and NOTHING was done to fix that. Had Trump actually intended to do anything but act as if he was doing something, he could have issued an order to simply create stricter vetting procedures for ALL immigrants. That would have at least been an effort at action. It is not as if this is some new problem that he was faced with. He has been talking about the issue for months (with no real policy, just some well researched talking points). Surely he or one of his erstwhile advisors had devised some sort of vetting scheme along the way or it could just be that Trump was just as he has always been - writing checks with his mouth that his ass could not cash

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post #127 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 08:06 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

To all of you "supporters" of this empty gesture known as the "ban". I am sorry I refuse to submit to an irrational fear of a phantom menace. I cannot cheer such an ineffective and largely symbolic effort to solve a problem that does not exist in the first place. While you may feel saver that at least something was done, in the mean time thousands are pouring across the border from countries that have produced actual criminals. You see most (I cannot vouch for everyone of them) of the people coming from those countries are actually fleeing the havoc that exists there. Some of this havoc is a result of our "defense" policies, which has had the intended consequence of destabilizing these countries, resulting in civil war and carnage. These people are for the most part refugees which we have helped create. These people just want some place to live their lives in peace, as they did for the most part before. In the meantime, people from Saudi Arabia, who experience the stifling stability of Sharia law, continue to enjoy access to our country. Your fears are misdirected, it isn't these seven piss ant devastated countries nor the people from them that you should fear. It is larger, more stable, richer countries and people who actually commit acts of terror against us.

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post #128 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 08:09 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Originally Posted by Wolfman1968 View Post

There have been AT LEAST 3000 US deaths since (and including) 9/11 caused by terrorists. Just think--the 9/11 terrorists (largely Saudis on visas), Nidal Hassan (Fort Hood shooter), San Bernadino shooter (wife on a visa), Orlando shooter, Boston Bombers...
.

Nidal Hassan was a US Army major (other, later, Fort Hood shooter also US Army, btw)
Boston Bomber - American citizen (immigrated at age 8)
San Bernando shooting was an American born citizen
Orlando shootings, also an American citizen

Other notable terrorists
Oklahoma bombing, Timothy McVeigh - US citizen
Unabomber -- US citizen


Just sayin'
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post #129 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 09:32 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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People/societies are conditioned and controlled by "rule makers" via negatively labeling those that do not conform to desired thought; the purpose being to initiate reaction that isolates and punishes the undesirable non-conformist. "Racist", anti-Islamic, and xenophobe have become extremely effective buzzwords that, like the old "she a witch" requires little more than a single acquisition for someone to be branded, marginalized, and silenced; their actual behavior to warrant such characterization is of no consequence while the person(s) making the charge are considered, astute, unique and admirable.
They are overusing these insults, which results in their losing effectiveness. Especially when we have a master troll as President!

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post #130 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 09:35 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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The wall in the Mexican/Texas border would indeed be pure decoration unless the way in which Mexican nationals that do have money can just come and put a business up anywhere in Texas (it's the only state I am aware that has just an easy way to get a green card, that once received, doesn't get checked until 5 years later). All the Mexican national has to do is make sure that the business makes at least $5,000 a month! With $30,000 a year, you can open a bunch of small businesses in towns across the Texas border. It's how these border towns boomed in the past couple of years. Now, I don't know about other states, but in Texas that is really all you need to get a green card and it's good for 5 whole years. You and your children are legal here and you can cross the US border to Mexico without any issues.

I have 3 sets of parents that are legally here this way. One family has a day care, the other has a dollar store, and the last has an auto insurance company. Out of the 3 families, one of them is the child of a very rich drug lord. There is money laundering going on left and right in these towns with adult day care centers and senior home health centers as well. If you think that terrorists are not involved in similar ways to come to the USA, you are clearly mistaken. The huge problem with drugs in Latin American and Central American countries are a distraction to allow people with deadly intentions worse than bringing in drugs to our kids schools are what we need to also be concerned with. They are coming to wipe us out!

I don't know how easy it is in other states to get a green card if you have money to put up a business, but Texas sucks rocks in that regard.
I don't know where you got this information, but green cards are issued by the federal government, not the states. So I have a lot of trouble believing that there are special rules making it easier to get green cards in Texas.


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post #131 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 09:37 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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In the meantime thousands are still coming in from countries from which Americans have died as a result of actual terrorist act and NOTHING was done to fix that.
If I understand you correctly, people in other middle eastern countries talking, "death to infidels" are no less dangerous and we are just as likely to import them as we are from these 7 countries. I generally agree. On the other hand, since any number of folks from this region have been shouting (and practicing), "death to infidel" for centuries, I don't think Trump's executive order did a hell of a lot to exacerbate things.
My "conspiracy" theory is, after of 9/11, the Arabs told Bush, "We'll give you Saddam as a scapegoat, but you leave our boy Osama alone". I mean how hard is it to pull a 6'5" Arab out of a haystack of middle eastern men with an average height of about 5-8 or 5-9.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #132 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 10:04 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

I don't follow this argument.

Money and effort is spent on other risks, but the amount is related to the scale of the risk. We do not ban gun sales for months while we figure out how to better vet gun owners. We don't ban driving for months while we figure out how to make roads safer - despite the huge numbers of deaths.

I don't see how terrorism affects cities or states in a way that accidents don't. Dam failures, aircraft crashes, chemical releases etc all can kill as many people as a large scale terrorist attack.

I don't see why terrorism shouldn't be viewed in the same way as those other risks.


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I think it's very intellectually dishonest to compare vehicular deaths, swimming pool accidents, hospital stays, etc., to terrorism. The former group affects the individuals, while the latter affects groups, cities, states, and even countries. This is not an irrational fear. When a car is found to be defective, the car manufacturer and the Department of Transportation both take measures to reduce and or to prevent future incidents. They don't sit around and use your ridiculous logic that since the number of accidents is less than xyz, that no measures need to be taken. When a toy is involved in child suffocation, the manufacturer recalls all of it; they don't rationalize that since only 3 children have died, that it shouldn't concern the rest of the children in the country. Your logic is incredible.

During this halt, anywhere from 800 to 1100 refugees from these countries have been allowed into the United States. About a third of them are from Syria, where ISIS still have a stronghold. They don't need to send in thousands or even hundreds; they just need a few to carry out a carefully orchestrated mass attack. They play offense while our government constantly plays defense, because people like you don't want to inconvenience people who shout death to America, and who have no intention of assimilating.
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post #133 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 10:13 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

Green cards are issued by the feds but there's regional centers where things happen. It's not a very well thought out process and there's lots of paper trail and very small numbers issued so I doubt it's a significant issue.
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post #134 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 11:26 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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I don't know where you got this information, but green cards are issued by the federal government, not the states. So I have a lot of trouble believing that there are special rules making it easier to get green cards in Texas.
You are right in that I really don't know based on real laws. My experience is based on personal knowledge of what is happening in my neck of the woods. My part of the country is full of shenanigans like people who are illegally living here and can vote. Also those same people have housing and get money and all kinds of help for their kids and their elderly parents. It's mind boggling to say the least. Now I am noticing the business owners here as well and it looks like there is more of the same type of corruption.

It is legal "their way" though because the votes count, the people live for free pretty much and the elderly get all kinds of medical care, nurses that visit them in their home, providers that care for their meals and keeping their places clean (personal elderly maid service). Who do you think pays for all this?

Now, I am seeing my private tutoring kids that live in Mexico but do in indeed have green cards to pass the international bridge every morning and afternoon without paying for their education because the green card allows this to happen due to their parents having a business green card due to it. There are plenty of kids that come to American schools for their education, but they pay a hefty chunk of change to do so.

What I am trying to get at is, who is in charge of this happening and if it is illegal because quite frankly it is; why is nothing done to fix it? If this happens here, what would stop it from happening anywhere else in America?

Good things come to those who wait...greater things come to those who get off their a$$ and do anything to make it happen.
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post #135 of 242 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 11:35 AM
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Re: 9th Court of Appeals uphold halt to temp immigrant ban

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Green cards are issued by the feds but there's regional centers where things happen. It's not a very well thought out process and there's lots of paper trail and very small numbers issued so I doubt it's a significant issue.
That is not my experience. The lower Rio Grande Valley in Texas has hundreds of thousands inhabitants; while it is true that we are not in the millions. More than half of those people are taking advantage of these shenanigans. If you see these numbers in and of itself, it's most certainly not an insignificant issue. It's a very weak link for lack of a better term. As many enemies as America has, that weak link can be disastrous to all America.

Now Trump wants Mexico to pay for the wall. I wouldn't trust Mexico at all and I'm from there. I love that country, but it extremely corrupt and people are out to get what they can from who ever allows it.

The Mexican government is talking about a virtual wall with cameras and other types of technology. I would agree with it only if it were run by Americans and most certainly not by Mexican workers (they are easily bought). The American workers need to not be locals (they can be easily bought as well or worse, extorted). These workers need to be switched every couple of years to avoid corruption (two or three years max). It has to be well thought out in order to stay corruption free.

Good things come to those who wait...greater things come to those who get off their a$$ and do anything to make it happen.
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