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post #391 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 09:36 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

Another problem with the "white privilege" term is that it ignores the long standing discrimination against women. It was not long ago in the US that husbands could legally beat their wives. Women got he vote long after slavery ended. Even legal equal rights for women is fairly recent. Women still face significant discrimination in the work force (see the recent Uber case), probably at least as much as African Americans do.

Outside the US the situation for women is much worse. Asian (usually grouped with white for some reason) women in Korea face significant discrimination. "White" women in Saudi Arabia are effectively slaves, with very limited rights.

I'm not saying that all women face serious discrimination, but on average it is comparable to the discrimination faced by minorities.

Then we can get to anti LGBT discrimination......


So to me "white" privilege includes a lot of people who are definitely not privileged, doesn't include a lot who are, causes contention, and is basically a terrible term for the situation.

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post #392 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 09:51 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Another problem with the "white privilege" term is that it ignores the long standing discrimination against women. It was not long ago in the US that husbands could legally beat their wives. Women got he vote long after slavery ended. Even legal equal rights for women is fairly recent. Women still face significant discrimination in the work force (see the recent Uber case), probably at least as much as African Americans do.

Outside the US the situation for women is much worse. Asian (usually grouped with white for some reason) women in Korea face significant discrimination. "White" women in Saudi Arabia are effectively slaves, with very limited rights.

I'm not saying that all women face serious discrimination, but on average it is comparable to the discrimination faced by minorities.

Then we can get to anti LGBT discrimination......


So to me "white" privilege includes a lot of people who are definitely not privileged, doesn't include a lot who are, causes contention, and is basically a terrible term for the situation.
The concept of white privilege specifically address problems/issue(racial) blacks experience. The women need to find their own as well as LGBT. And it is here where it draws a distinction of pointing calling out whites only.

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

Last edited by Yeswecan; 02-22-2017 at 09:58 AM.
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post #393 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 09:58 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Originally Posted by john117 View Post
And the distribution of wealth makes it a race issue at the end.
Since we're so focused on the privilege of "race" and its association with wealth... what are your thoughts on Jews John?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #394 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 10:02 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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I think almost everyone will agree that there is no explicitly legalized racism in the US.

There are other biases and racism that do have a large effect and those are what people are trying to fix.

That said, I think "white privilege" is not a correct way to describe the problems.
And yet @john117 and @Anon Pink insist that it is real. Heck, Anon was saying earlier--and she has so far refused to respond to any of my posts and refutations--that white people are preventing blacks from voting.

This isn't really aimed at you Uhtred, but those who are claiming institutional racism against brown people: I defy anyone to provide one example in the US of the current institutions discriminating against brown people based on their skin.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...

Last edited by Kivlor; 02-22-2017 at 10:58 AM.
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post #395 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 10:10 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

I want to further add that the entire concept of White Privilege dilutes the discussion of inequality to mere skin color, and precludes any discussion of life choices. It presumes that a white person whose parents are financially above average are only so because of their skin, and not due to anything else. It specifically presumes that this wealth (or any other "advantage") is unearned, which is infantile in nature.

It ignores everything that one can control, and only considers the only thing they cannot control. This is by definition racism.

I will give an example from my life: I am "financially privileged" in that my parents have built up something to leave to my sisters and myself. Now, if we attribute this to white privilege, we would ignore the fact that my mother and father both worked 80 hour work weeks when my siblings and I were children. That my mother still works 60 hour work weeks today. That my father would still be doing so if he were alive.

No, they didn't earn that. They were given it because of their skin. By the magic skin-fairies.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #396 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 10:49 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

Then why isn't it called "black oppression"? (or discrimination or bias).

If the focus is on the black experience, why not have that in the description?





Quote:
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The concept of white privilege specifically address problems/issue(racial) blacks experience. The women need to find their own as well as LGBT. And it is here where it draws a distinction of pointing calling out whites only.
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post #397 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 10:59 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Then why isn't it called "black oppression"? (or discrimination or bias).

If the focus is on the black experience, why not have that in the description?
Because as I said all along...it was names as such to create a sense of shame/guilt. No other reason in my mind. But Anon Pink has in it her mind to simply dismiss the feeling because it is does not create said feeling.

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
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post #398 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:01 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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I want to further add that the entire concept of White Privilege dilutes the discussion of inequality to mere skin color, and precludes any discussion of life choices. It presumes that a white person whose parents are financially above average are only so because of their skin, and not due to anything else. It specifically presumes that this wealth (or any other "advantage") is unearned, which is infantile in nature.

It ignores everything that one can control, and only considers the only thing they cannot control. This is by definition racism.

I will give an example from my life: I am "financially privileged" in that my parents have built up something to leave to my sisters and myself. Now, if we attribute this to white privilege, we would ignore the fact that my mother and father both worked 80 hour work weeks when my siblings and I were children. That my mother still works 60 hour work weeks today. That my father would still be doing so if he were alive.

No, they didn't earn that. They were given it because of their skin. By the magic skin-fairies.

Did any of the black community, at the time your parents worked these hours, have the same opportunity to work where your folks did and at the same pay? There in lies the difference.

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road
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post #399 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:01 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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I think that you should try to understand what is written plainly in the posts before you.
Sigh...

I'm sure you'll find examples where blacks enslaved blacks, and whites enslaved whites. I do not dispute that.

But if you're trying to equate the sub Saharan geopolitical and economic situation with, say, 1800's Mississippi...

Africa has always been - for lack of a better term - a jungle. But the Mississippi of 1850 was civilized. There was law and order. Courts. Universities. Hospitals. Businesses. Factories. Religion.

And slavery.

If you can't see the difference then my PhD educated rear end is really at a loss.
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post #400 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:06 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Did any of the black community, at the time your parents worked these hours, have the same opportunity to work where your folks did and at the same pay? There in lies the difference.
Um, yes. My mother had a black boss. And still has several black coworkers.

My father was self-employed . Any African American could have gone and gotten their Real Estate license. Technically my dad worked for his mother's brokerage, which he took over after 2 years of working. The company was on the verge of bankruptcy when he did so and he saved it.

But yes, the skin-fairies gave it all to him.


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #401 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:08 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Since we're so focused on the privilege of "race" and its association with wealth... what are your thoughts on Jews John?
Considering most people think I'm Jewish, very positive . In the 1980s a colleague invited us for a get together without mentioning the Jewish part. food was phenomenal but desserts... Well.. and I'm still fond of Israeli wines. Good stuff.

The Jews were targeted for different reasons thru the centuries. They persevered. They respect education, are business savvy, and tend to keep traditions. I don't agree with what's happening in Israel right now - there should have been a multi state solution centuries ago.

TBH, I wish all the Jews of the world would move to a more practical location. Say, Southern California 😁. At least the tech savvy ones. I've done a couple projects with Israel based companies and those dudes are beyond good.
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post #402 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:15 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Um, yes. My mother had a black boss. And still has several black coworkers.

My father was self-employed . Any African American could have gone and gotten their Real Estate license. Technically my dad worked for his mother's brokerage, which he took over after 2 years of working. The company was on the verge of bankruptcy when he did so and he saved it.

But yes, the skin-fairies gave it all to him.
Then your example debunks the concept.

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road
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post #403 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:21 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Considering most people think I'm Jewish, very positive . In the 1980s a colleague invited us for a get together without mentioning the Jewish part. food was phenomenal but desserts... Well.. and I'm still fond of Israeli wines. Good stuff.

The Jews were targeted for different reasons thru the centuries. They persevered. They respect education, are business savvy, and tend to keep traditions. I don't agree with what's happening in Israel right now - there should have been a multi state solution centuries ago.

TBH, I wish all the Jews of the world would move to a more practical location. Say, Southern California ��. At least the tech savvy ones. I've done a couple projects with Israel based companies and those dudes are beyond good.
Wait, but don't they control an inordinate amount of wealth compared to their population size? Shouldn't we be focusing on Hebrew privilege? At least 24% of US Billionaires are Jews...

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #404 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:26 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

Africa is a big place. It includes Egypt and Nubia which were of course major civilization centers in the ancient past. Carthage which lost to Rome, but it was close. Morocco. A number of Arabic civilizations on the eastern coast including Zanzibar. Timbuktu, probably a bunch of others I'm forgetting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by john117 View Post
Sigh...

I'm sure you'll find examples where blacks enslaved blacks, and whites enslaved whites. I do not dispute that.

But if you're trying to equate the sub Saharan geopolitical and economic situation with, say, 1800's Mississippi...

Africa has always been - for lack of a better term - a jungle. But the Mississippi of 1850 was civilized. There was law and order. Courts. Universities. Hospitals. Businesses. Factories. Religion.

And slavery.

If you can't see the difference then my PhD educated rear end is really at a loss.
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post #405 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:33 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Wait, but don't they control an inordinate amount of wealth compared to their population size? Shouldn't we be focusing on Hebrew privilege? At least 24% of US Billionaires are Jews...
They do, mostly because of a decent head start, network, focus...

But they're intelligent enough to generally ignore racial issues and focus where success can be had. Hip hop music comes to mind 😁.
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