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post #31 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 12:12 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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How on earth are we ever going to get past racism, when we force this type of reverse racism all the time? We need to come together, not continue to do stuff to force us apart. Black lives matter. this bs, it is never ending.

Sorry, but all lives matter and why should I feel guilty about supposed white privilege that I never really got?
You're not supposed to feel guilty about white privilege. You just need to acknowledge the truth of it.

Yes we need to come together but how do your propose that to happen when two centuries of institutional oppression have kept an entire race from any sort of success, followed by 50 years of slow and methodical forced change and we still have every day examples of white privilege that white people refuse to acknowledge?


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post #32 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 12:17 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Originally Posted by Yeswecan View Post
Let's talk black privilege. From our one and only CNN new room:





Good article. Please read it all:

It's time to talk about black privilege - CNN.com

I do not deny there are privileges. Issues in the past(some still persist) demonstrate privilege. However, it appears both races are receiving their own types of privileges.

You two quotes hilariously proved my point about white privilege. White people dont need white history month because all year all history features accomplishments of white people. White people have had white only clubs and organization for centuries. Augusta National golf course, traditional gentlemen's clubs, hell the yacht club we belonged to growing up did not admit blacks and it wasn't until the 1990's when they admitted their first black member!

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post #33 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 12:17 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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You're not supposed to feel guilty about white privilege. You just need to acknowledge the truth of it.

Yes we need to come together but how do your propose that to happen when two centuries of institutional oppression have kept an entire race from any sort of success, followed by 50 years of slow and methodical forced change and we still have every day examples of white privilege that white people refuse to acknowledge?
It's tough to see privilege when you're part of the privileged. I love googling cartoons that explain privilege when people won't acknowledge their privilege and even when I forget my privilege. Sounds really silly but it puts things into perspective.

A short comic gives the simplest, most perfect explanation of privilege I've ever seen.

OH Also Checkmyprivilege.com helps too
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post #34 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 12:26 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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I think the push to recognize "white privilege" is one of the most damaging concepts for equality in the last couple of decades. It creates a division between "white" and "non-white". It groups a wide range of people into a single category - the essence of racism and exactly the type of thing we are trying to eliminate.

What is called "white privilege" is in fact what *should* be normal for everyone. The problem is not that whites have too much privilege, its that other groups have too little. I do not want the police to illegally stop more white people, I want them to stop illegally stopping black people.

When you isolate at attack a group of people they tend to find common cause. By assuming that all white people are somehow responsible for the oppression in society, you drive them away from the cause you would like them to support.

I think the recent election is the result of this and other similar social pressures. If I'm accused of having "privilege" and called a racist because I don't support all of the methods progressives want to use to eliminate oppression, then there is a strong tendency to say "screw it, I'm voting for the evil white guy to teach you all a lesson". I didn't, but I thought about it, and I'm sure a lot of people actually did it.

[there are other reasons people voted for Trump, but in US elections just a percent or two of people changing their votes for some reason is a big deal]


If you want to see how to operate a social movement, look at the gay rights movement over the last 30 years. They were very inclusive, they did not attempt to shame people for being straight, they did not insist that anyone who didn't hold to their entire agenda was evil, they wanted acceptance and equal rights. The result was a fantastic success: When I was growing up, being "gay" was among the worst insults possible,and illegal in many jurisdictions. Now in large swaths of the country it is completely acceptable - its perfectly normal to send congratulatory notes to gay couples on their anniversaries, and to invite same-sex partners to business / social occasions.

If you want to fix a social problem in a democracy you need to attract allies, not drive them away.

I'll go back to my example of having an envious wardrobe because my mother had excellent design skills and could sew. I was privileged wasn't I. I did nothing to earn that awesome wardrobe. I had it because I was born to a woman with mad skills in the clothing/decorating department. My friends were envious and when they told me so I would agree I was lucky my mother could do make anything. To deny my privilege would be....what? What name would you say fits for a person who was born with a privilege they themselves didn't earn yet looked down on those not born into such a privilege?

Some girls thought I wa a snob because of the way I dressed. But those who knew me and actually talked to me soon discovered 1. I had zero fashion sense and 2. I was grateful that my mother saved me from making a fool of myself on many occasions because I would put together blouses with the wrong skirt etc.

This is an example of how we promote understanding and cohesiveness together. I would have been a snob and not had many friends if I insisted anyone could dress like me and what I had to wear was the same stuff any other kid had or could have if their parents worked hard enough....

"Some women are blessed with multi-orgasmic ability for a reason and I'm damn sure not going to waste a blessing" ~FrenchFry


"Vaginas are tricky creatures." ~Lucy999
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post #35 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 12:41 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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You two quotes hilariously proved my point about white privilege. White people dont need white history month because all year all history features accomplishments of white people. White people have had white only clubs and organization for centuries. Augusta National golf course, traditional gentlemen's clubs, hell the yacht club we belonged to growing up did not admit blacks and it wasn't until the 1990's when they admitted their first black member!

But you missed the point and other quotes. If there was a white history month(in name like black history month) it would be seen as racist. If there was white entertainment tv it would be seen as racist. Further, for what blacks were fighting for(gaining access to a traditional gentlemen's club and such) it is turned around to exclusively black clubs and such. However, this is not reverse racism. The tables have turned and the quest to divide is perpetrated by the very group that look to have inclusion.

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
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post #36 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 12:43 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
You're not supposed to feel guilty about white privilege. You just need to acknowledge the truth of it.

Yes we need to come together but how do your propose that to happen when two centuries of institutional oppression have kept an entire race from any sort of success, followed by 50 years of slow and methodical forced change and we still have every day examples of white privilege that white people refuse to acknowledge?
It is to provide a guilt trip.

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road
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post #37 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 12:45 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

I consider a privilege to be something that only a few are expected to have. Since we don't expect everyone to have an enormous wardrobe that counts as a privilege. It isn't a bad thing, there will always be people with more or less, but recognizing that you have more is good.

OTOH, human rights, justice, etc are are basic rights that everyone should have. They don't - but that is not because of privilege, but because of oppression. There is nothing "wrong" with many white people having these rights, what is wrong is that other groups do not.


I don't want white people to recognize "privilege", I want them to recognize "oppression". Its a completely different take on things.

Complaining about "privilege" is saying that white people unfairly have things that they shouldn't have. Complaining about "oppression" is saying that there are groups of people who do not have the things that they should have.

Also


The other problem is that taking about white "privilege" ignores the significant number of white people who are not privileged. Tell someone who grew up with an alcoholic, drug-addict, or sexually abusing parent that they are "privileged" and they are likely to disregard anything else that you say. Or talk to someone who's parents had concentration camp tattoos (like a good friend of mine) and say that they have "white privilege" is not going to go well.

Why attack people with claims of "privilege" rather than ask for their help fighting "oppression". The second seems far more likely to swing votes in your favor.

Sure there are some that will completely deny oppression, but they are not going to believe in their "privilege" either.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
I'll go back to my example of having an envious wardrobe because my mother had excellent design skills and could sew. I was privileged wasn't I. I did nothing to earn that awesome wardrobe. I had it because I was born to a woman with mad skills in the clothing/decorating department. My friends were envious and when they told me so I would agree I was lucky my mother could do make anything. To deny my privilege would be....what? What name would you say fits for a person who was born with a privilege they themselves didn't earn yet looked down on those not born into such a privilege?

Some girls thought I wa a snob because of the way I dressed. But those who knew me and actually talked to me soon discovered 1. I had zero fashion sense and 2. I was grateful that my mother saved me from making a fool of myself on many occasions because I would put together blouses with the wrong skirt etc.

This is an example of how we promote understanding and cohesiveness together. I would have been a snob and not had many friends if I insisted anyone could dress like me and what I had to wear was the same stuff any other kid had or could have if their parents worked hard enough....
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post #38 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 12:51 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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But you missed the point and other quotes. If there was a white history month(in name like black history month) it would be seen as racist. If there was white entertainment tv it would be seen as racist. Further, for what blacks were fighting for(gaining access to a traditional gentlemen's club and such) it is turned around to exclusively black clubs and such. However, this is not reverse racism. The tables have turned and the quest to divide is perpetrated by the very group that look to have inclusion.
I'm sorry but I didn't miss the point. You keep saying "but but but you're not listening to me" and I'm saying yes I did I grew up listening to you and others like you. You, sir, are not listening to me. I'll try once more...

Would you like to have a club that is whites only? Do you feel disenfranchised because you do not have a white only Club?

Has your race ever been intentionally and systematically, not to mention systemically, oppressed and denied entry into institutions, businesses, facilities, housing, banking?

Why would we need a white history month? Why do we need a black history month? Why do we need a BET channel?


Why did white men need to have a white men only Club? What advantages did those white men have by belonging to a white men only Club? How did those advantages play a role in perpetuating economic success of white men?

"Some women are blessed with multi-orgasmic ability for a reason and I'm damn sure not going to waste a blessing" ~FrenchFry


"Vaginas are tricky creatures." ~Lucy999
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post #39 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 12:56 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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It is to provide a guilt trip.
And what is wrong with that?
What happens when we feel guilty?
Do you ever apologize to your wife?
Do you ever feel guilty about something you did?
What happens as a result of feeling that guilt?

Answers:
Nothing
We become aware of ourselves and avoid repeating. We also apologize, or we're supposed to. I know many in the population who simply cannot apologize and think it is a sign of strength. It's not strength. It's the opposite of strength, weakness. You fear apologizing might make you look weak. It is that fear that makes you a weak person.
Only you can answer the rest

"Some women are blessed with multi-orgasmic ability for a reason and I'm damn sure not going to waste a blessing" ~FrenchFry


"Vaginas are tricky creatures." ~Lucy999
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post #40 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 01:16 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Has your race ever been intentionally and systematically, not to mention systemically, oppressed and denied entry into institutions, businesses, facilities, housing, banking?
I gently refer you to Missouri Executive Order 44 which was not removed for over 137 years.

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post #41 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 01:51 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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I gently refer you to Missouri Executive Order 44 which was not removed for over 137 years.
I will admit I had to look that up. Damn.
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post #42 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 02:10 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

Guilt is useful if it can change behavior. Its not useful if there is no behavior to change.

I cannot change my being white. I'm not aware of anything that I am doing that oppresses people, rather the reverse in fact, I'm involved in some programs at work that are targeted at providing opportunities to people who otherwise would have fewer opportunities.

I can't change the fact that I get certain advantages from being white. My whiteness does not give me some special power over society. I can only change how I behave to reduce the oppression of others.



Imagine I was trying to get paternity leave rights for men in a place where they already existed for women. Wouldn't it be far better to say that men should have the same rights as women with respect to leave, rather than "women need to accept that they get *special treatment* for leave". The goal is to give everyone reasonable treatment, not take it away from those that have it.


These conversations get confusing because the opposition to "privilege" is composed of at least 3 groups:

One group does not believe that there is any remaining bias in society. The will reject privilege or oppression arguments out of hand.

Another group believes that there is bias and generally would like to fix it. They are much more likely to respond positively to request to help stop oppression than accusations of "privilege".

A 3rd group is "white", and so has been labeled as "privileged", but in fact is not. They are suffering from a variety of oppression not based on race, but on some other issue. They may be very sympathetic to the oppression of others, but are not going to react well to being called "privileged".


Words matter. Saying person A is privileged, is different from saying person B is oppressed, even though both imply that A is in a better situation than B. The difference is which situation is implied to be wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
And what is wrong with that?
What happens when we feel guilty?
Do you ever apologize to your wife?
Do you ever feel guilty about something you did?
What happens as a result of feeling that guilt?

Answers:
Nothing
We become aware of ourselves and avoid repeating. We also apologize, or we're supposed to. I know many in the population who simply cannot apologize and think it is a sign of strength. It's not strength. It's the opposite of strength, weakness. You fear apologizing might make you look weak. It is that fear that makes you a weak person.
Only you can answer the rest
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post #43 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 02:10 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
And what is wrong with that?
What happens when we feel guilty?
Do you ever apologize to your wife?
Do you ever feel guilty about something you did?
What happens as a result of feeling that guilt?

Answers:
Nothing
We become aware of ourselves and avoid repeating. We also apologize, or we're supposed to. I know many in the population who simply cannot apologize and think it is a sign of strength. It's not strength. It's the opposite of strength, weakness. You fear apologizing might make you look weak. It is that fear that makes you a weak person.
Only you can answer the rest
You are ok with guilting people who did not create white only clubs and institutional racism that was here long before our times? Good Lord, I was 1 year old in 1965. The year civil rights for all really got traction. We are not talking about a W that I can directly do something that requires an apology. I was pooping green in the 60's. I should be made to feel guilty for what came before me? I'm being guilted for simply being white.


I apologize for nothing I did not create. We should(everyone) not be made to feel guilty for something we did not do or were an active participant in.

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

Last edited by Yeswecan; 02-15-2017 at 02:29 PM.
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post #44 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 02:21 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

I think the real question is why we talk about white privelage rather than the oppression of other groups. What the divisive language?
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post #45 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 02:25 PM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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I'm sorry but I didn't miss the point. You keep saying "but but but you're not listening to me" and I'm saying yes I did I grew up listening to you and others like you. You, sir, are not listening to me. I'll try once more...

Would you like to have a club that is whites only? Do you feel disenfranchised because you do not have a white only Club? No. Not following where you are going with that question.

Has your race ever been intentionally and systematically, not to mention systemically, oppressed and denied entry into institutions, businesses, facilities, housing, banking? How far back in history would you like to go? Something about being fed to the lions. Something that happened in Hitlers Germany.

Why would we need a white history month? Why do we need a black history month? Why do we need a BET channel? We don't. We need this is America 12 months but some continue to divide.


Why did white men need to have a white men only Club? What advantages did those white men have by belonging to a white men only Club? How did those advantages play a role in perpetuating economic success of white men? The white only clubs were not set up for privileges other than keeping out blacks. Racism. If you think that the black man would not use the advantage of the an all black club you would be mistaken. Sorry, the white club privilege and economic success example it poor. Black in their clubs would do the same for those within the club. It is their privilege.

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road
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