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post #106 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 09:11 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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White privilege is the topic. Not minority oppression. Not bigotry. Not racism, well not specifically racism. Racism is a part of white privilege only in that racism is part of what created white privilege.

While everything you said above is true it doesn't refute the fact that white people have grown up with privileges black people have not.

Those in the LGBTQ community have also been oppressed but the white LGBTQ have still enjoyed white privilege.

When the Germans immigrated they were despised ....until word got around their beer was outstanding...hee hee.

When the Irish came they were despised.

When the Italians came they were despised.

None of those minority groups were subject to lynchings, to being owned property, or to be subject to laws designed to deny them education or jobs or housing. Consider slavery ended after the civil war ended, 1865. But black people were routinely denied rights and were subject to extreme segregation for another 100 years.
Other types of privilege?

Not eligible for consideration, even if it proves whites do not have a monopoly on the privilege market.


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post #107 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 09:14 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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White privilege and racism go hand in hand. It is apparent in your last sentence here. It also suggests that all whites are racists because of white privilege.

And all races grow up with some form of privilege. Some are betters than others.

But suffered from other forms oppression. We will just over look that.



Slavery of all colors and religions has occurred throughout history. Further, the Germans held mass lynchings, firing squads and bulldozed the dead into mass graves. The Germans did not care much for the Irish either.

No where do I suggest all whites are racist.

Most people (in general) grow up with some sort of privilege. If they were never hungry, they had a privilege over those who did experience hunger. They they had parents who loved them, they had a privilege over those who did not. Having had the benefit of any privilege over someone less fortunate does not negate white privilege.

I didn't mention other forms of oppression the LGBTQ folks suffered because, as I just stated in the converse, having had a privilege doesn't negate white privilege. Once again, we are talking about white privilege. We are not talking about oppression.

Again, white people in this country have enjoyed privilege that black people have not. Romans enslaving Christians, Egyptians enslaving Jews...Germans murdering millions of Jews...didn't happen in the country and doesn't have bearing on white privilege in this country.

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post #108 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 09:19 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Fat people, while socially discriminated against, have never been owned, never been subject to being pulled over for driving while fat in a skinny neighborhood, do not have to keep their anger in check, and they benefit of growing up seeing other fat people who have achieved success. Fat people also have the option of losing weigh.

Again, this isn't about racism, although racism is a part of it. Even a part of it makes is racism. It like being a little bit pregnant. Either you are or aren't. You are suggesting that white due to to white privilege are in part racist. This is about white privilege. Please go back to my first post in this thread to see examples of white privilege. Yes it is because a majority of what you have written is bias racial discrimination do to color of skin. Pulled over in a neighborhood and driving while black is racial profiling. If you are saying it is a privilege I'm white and not being pulled over...I do know what to say other than better education of cops and racial profiling.

But I completely agree that injustice, wherever it's found needs to be addressed.

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post #109 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 09:22 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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No where do I suggest all whites are racist.

Most people (in general) grow up with some sort of privilege. If they were never hungry, they had a privilege over those who did experience hunger. They they had parents who loved them, they had a privilege over those who did not. Having had the benefit of any privilege over someone less fortunate does not negate white privilege.

I didn't mention other forms of oppression the LGBTQ folks suffered because, as I just stated in the converse, having had a privilege doesn't negate white privilege. Once again, we are talking about white privilege. We are not talking about oppression.

Again, white people in this country have enjoyed privilege that black people have not. Romans enslaving Christians, Egyptians enslaving Jews...Germans murdering millions of Jews...didn't happen in the country and doesn't have bearing on white privilege in this country.
You are misguided in the 100 degree that this did not have any bearing on white privilege in this country. This country is made up of immigrants. You know, the catch phrase of late. The same ones that were lynched by the Germans. Did the notion of slavery, killing and oppressing of these folks stop at the border?

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post #110 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 09:40 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

The interesting thing is that we probably don't agree much on either the present day situation or on the actions that are needed to fix it. We disagree on *words*, but words matter.: I believe that systematic racism still exists in the US - some very obvious like police harassment of black people (which sometimes leads to shootings), and some more subtle involving social and work interactions. Its a tricky problem to solve, but there are a variety of reasonable things to try.

I think that oppression of minorities and other groups still exists in the US and I am happy to do what I can to reduce it.

As an aside, my comment on Japanese is that they are NOT currently oppressed, in fact they are on average these days more privileged than "whites". Same for Jews (though certainly the opposite was true 70 years ago). My point there was that there are a number of privileged groups in the US, so why single out "whites".

To answer your first question: In US society the term "privilege" has very negative connotations - it implies having things one does not deserve. "White Privilege" is in essence a racial slur, and causes as much anger as other racial slurs.

There are black people in criminal gangs, but not all black people are "thugs". The reason those terms are insulting is because there are other groups in criminal gangs and large numbers of black people who are not.

The term is also wrong. White people not have things they don't deserve, what they have are things that EVERYONE deserves. We are not I assume trying to eliminate justice for white people, but instead trying to gain it for all those that don't have it.

There are a small percentage of people who do have real privilege, inherited wealth etc. that goes far beyond the normal. Many of those people are white, but a significant number are other races as well. In the same way there are a small percentage of minorities who are criminal - but that doesn't tarnish all of them.

Then of course there are the wide range of white people who while they have some social advantages from being white, have much larger social disadvantages from other reasons. There are a lot of "white" trafficked women - surely they do not have "privilege".

So I turn the question around - why phrase the discussion in a manner that many people fine offensive? Why not talk about oppression? I can think of no reason other than as an attempt to attack people. What other reason is there?

Just look at the responses here - many of the people responding agree that there is bias and oppression and want to end it. Why drive them away? I go out of my way to avoid using offensive terms for other groups, why not extend the same courtesy?

The US is a mostly functioning democracy: There are lots of minor issues, but a substantial majority vote is enough to win elections. That means that social change happens when people are convinced to support your side. Why not act in a way to gain their support rather than lose it.

I see so many people made furious about "privilege", "safe spaces", etc. Progressives briefly had power, and as so often happens when the powerless gain power, they go overboard and abuse it. Now they've lost control of the government. The negative effects of this will be with us for decades. This is not the time to double down, but rather to recognize mistakes and regroup. To fight for the things that really matter.

Are progressives really willing to risk losing abortion rights, healthcare, and programs to help the disadvantaged for the fun of calling people "Privileged"? That is what it looks like to me, and it saddens me because I care about those things.


Am I going to stop voting for liberal ideas because I'm regularly insulted by liberals? No - but the effect is to make me more likely to vote conservative in the many edge cases.





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Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
No you are not being attacked!!!! I have used neither violence nor strong citisism. No one is being attacked.

Why do you feel like you're being attacked? Why does this issue make white people feel attacked?






With the exception of WWII, the Japanese were never oppressed, other than the newest wave of immigrant dislike. Jews have not had to suffer under US laws that disallowed them to vote, to own property, to rent housing, the be educated...etc. you keep trying to point to other ethnicity groups and by doing so you are confusing white privileged with minority bigotry. They are not the same. Again, chocolate cake...table. Related but not the same.



Excuse me? I am one of two supporting the facts of white privilege, everyone else denies it. Who has been run off this thread?

If it's unity you want, what is the harm in acknowledging white privilege?
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post #111 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 09:53 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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The entire thought process behind privilege I view as particularly nefarious.

Why?

If one believes it to be widespread as suggested, I can do nothing to impact it except to turn down opportunity.

It is the perfect way to pin people with guilt.

"I cannot be successful without hurting someone."

What a mind ****.

Additionally, when one uses "white" before privilege, it portrays the image of only white people having such privilege. All people have privilege of some form if they are willing to look for it.

I grew up skinny, nerdy, short, and constantly bullied. Should I promote the thought process of athletic privilege as somehow negative? Or attractiveness privilege? Or height privilege? How about wittiness privilege because I could not come up with pithy comebacks to the verbal harassment?

Nope.

The more I think about it, the more it feels like envy under another name.

It is yet one more method to place oneself on the victim chair, which is becoming increasingly popular in our culture.
You're making things up and what you are referring to is not privilege, nor is it how scholars think about it. You are deliberately making it absurd, which is fallacious reasoning. I can easily reduce everything I personally disagree with to the absurd - it is not good argument.

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post #112 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:13 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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You're making things up and what you are referring to is not privilege, nor is it how scholars think about it. You are deliberately making it absurd, which is fallacious reasoning. I can easily reduce everything I personally disagree with to the absurd - it is not good argument.

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Please tell me what I made up.

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post #113 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:16 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Additionally, when one uses "white" before privilege, it portrays the image of only white people having such privilege. All people have privilege of some form if they are willing to look for it.
There are lots of kinds of privilege. This discussion was about white privilege in particular. Yes, some people have privilege (in the sense this post is about) in one area and disadvantage in another area. Some people have some amount of privilege and disadvantage is several areas at once. This concept is called intersectionality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

When people feel personally attacked (and then like you, feel they must point out how THEY have been disadvantaged or discriminated against or bullied), they are not getting the point about the systemic over reaching issues being discussed.

Having privilege (white or other types) does not mean a person has had a wonderful life, they may have had a horrible life. It does not mean they have been handed a silver spoon. Therefore, individuals don't need to take it personally. They don't need to spout what sad things have happened to them. But that defensiveness shows that the person really doesn't understand the concept, they can only drill down to their own experience.

The awareness of privilege is about the justice of humanity as a whole. If you keep making it about yourself and the hardships you've faced, the concept will never make sense to you.

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post #114 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:19 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
No where do I suggest all whites are racist.

Most people (in general) grow up with some sort of privilege. If they were never hungry, they had a privilege over those who did experience hunger. They they had parents who loved them, they had a privilege over those who did not. Having had the benefit of any privilege over someone less fortunate does not negate white privilege.

I didn't mention other forms of oppression the LGBTQ folks suffered because, as I just stated in the converse, having had a privilege doesn't negate white privilege. Once again, we are talking about white privilege. We are not talking about oppression.

Again, white people in this country have enjoyed privilege that black people have not. Romans enslaving Christians, Egyptians enslaving Jews...Germans murdering millions of Jews...didn't happen in the country and doesn't have bearing on white privilege in this country.
Anon, you have not said all whites are racist, however, it but it is suggested when discussing white privilege. The reasoning is...racism is the cornerstone white privilege. The examples such as being followed in a store, stopped in a all white neighborhood or a woman clutching her purse closer when a black man approches is a direct result of racism. I do see what you are saying thought that whites do not experience this and it is a form of privilege. I understand it goes deeper that that as well. But, it is a tool that is used to shame white people no matter their social standing.

I would like to add...the conversation has been very enlightening!

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post #115 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:20 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Originally Posted by Yeswecan View Post
Sir, my sister is adopted Korean. She suffered the nonsense of others because of her look, etc. Many stupid remarks. These, IMO, are racial in nature. Further, I have been ignored by blacks at business' and other establishments. It goes both ways.
It goes both ways but given that whites control much of everything, the ramifications of being ignored or otherwise not treated well in a minority owned establishment are not quite as severe as the other way around...

Don't get me wrong, some people play the race card for all it's worth. But the numbers game is far more favorable to the majority at the end.

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post #116 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:24 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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It goes both ways but given that whites control much of everything, the ramifications of being ignored or otherwise not treated well in a minority owned establishment are not quite as severe as the other way around...

Don't get me wrong, some people play the race card for all it's worth. But the numbers game is far more favorable to the majority at the end.
We are not talking a numbers game. But we can talk areas of the country were people congregate and live based on their race. Business' are generally owned by the same race within that community. Within these communities, does any of this privilege not exist? No profiling when walking into a store. No one clutches their wallet or purse tighter in their own neighborhood? Everyone has a shot getting the job opening down the street at the 5 and Dime? Perhaps this is the very reason communities of the same race are found throughout the US?

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post #117 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:33 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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There are lots of kinds of privilege. This discussion was about white privilege in particular. Yes, some people have privilege (in the sense this post is about) in one area and disadvantage in another area. Some people have some amount of privilege and disadvantage is several areas at once. This concept is called intersectionality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

When people feel personally attacked (and then like you, feel they must point out how THEY have been disadvantaged or discriminated against or bullied), they are not getting the point about the systemic over reaching issues being discussed.

Having privilege (white or other types) does not mean a person has had a wonderful life, they may have had a horrible life. It does not mean they have been handed a silver spoon. Therefore, individuals don't need to take it personally. They don't need to spout what sad things have happened to them. But that defensiveness shows that the person really doesn't understand the concept, they can only drill down to their own experience.

The awareness of privilege is about the justice of humanity as a whole. If you keep making it about yourself and the hardships you've faced, the concept will never make sense to you.
Actually I grasp the concept well.

The problem with the entire approach to privilege is one of entitlement and victim mentality.

False premise 1: I am entitled to something.

False premise 2: I am a victim if hardships stand in the way of that to which I am entitled.

Therefore, I fundamentally disagree with the philosophy. It is the normalization negative personality traits.

Those who want to will do. Those who don't will make excuses.

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post #118 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:41 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Anon, you have not said all whites are racist, however, it but it is suggested when discussing white privilege. The reasoning is...racism is the cornerstone white privilege. The examples such as being followed in a store, stopped in a all white neighborhood or a woman clutching her purse closer when a black man approches is a direct result of racism. I do see what you are saying thought that whites do not experience this and it is a form of privilege. I understand it goes deeper that that as well. But, it is a tool that is used to shame white people no matter their social standing.

I would like to add...the conversation has been very enlightening!
But why don't I feel ashamed about any of it? Why do I only feel compassion about it? I'm white, I've experienced white privilege all my life (which doesn't mean I've been handed a silver spoon), I'm not a racist though I know lots of them. I don't feel guilt on behalf of my ancestors. Instead I feel sadness at the ignorance and brutality that was behind all of the issues of the past (slavery, etc). I feel it was a tragedy, but I do not feel connected to the source of any of it.

Yet I am still aware of my privileges (and I have more than just white privilege) and I can see where others are disadvantaged in areas I am not, but I don't feel ashamed or guilty for my privilege nor envious of the privileges of others. I do not feel there is a body of shame police out to get me to make me "pay" for my white privilege. I just see the need to understand that there is an issue in the world that impedes true equality. I don't feel responsible for this issue, but I do feel responsible for my own need to understand where I fit into it. In order for me to help equality spread among more and more of humanity as a whole, it is necessary for me to see where and how equality is being denied to some. That's all it is about.

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post #119 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:43 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Actually I grasp the concept well.

The problem with the entire approach to privilege is one of entitlement and victim mentality.

False premise 1: I am entitled to something.

False premise 2: I am a victim if hardships stand in the way of that to which I am entitled.

Therefore, I fundamentally disagree with the philosophy. It is the normalization negative personality traits.

Those who want to will do. Those who don't will make excuses.
Ok if you truly believe all people have the same advantage regardless of color and all they have to do is "try".....then I'm sorry, you don't grasp the concept.

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post #120 of 453 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:53 AM
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Re: White Pins For White Privilege

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Ok if you truly believe all people have the same advantage regardless of color and all they have to do is "try".....then I'm sorry, you don't grasp the concept.
That is not what I said, or even implied.

What I am saying is that all of us have different advantages or disadvantages.

To latch on to one (white) and pretend it is the only one worth considering is disengenous.

To attempt to control the dialogue using those means is nefarious.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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