America: A Failing Marriage - Page 34 - Talk About Marriage
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post #496 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 05:25 PM
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America: A Failing Marriage

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We're talking about two different things. You're talking about the algorithm which finds the EFC. The EFC is how much federal financial aid the student can get, which consists largely of loans along with some small grants. Or, the student or family can just write a check if they have the cash in the bank. The EFC is indeed cold math based on financials alone.



The remainder of the total bill can be quite a large amount of money. The school could opt to give grants, scholarships, waivers, or other reductions. But the school can also offer less than this remainder amount, and they frequently do. Which means the student or family have to find a way to pay it. This is the Unmet Need amount, and is what I am talking about (mostly).



That's where schools fudge with numbers to incentivize students they dearly want. Maybe it is a good athlete (but not good enough for a full ride), or a very excellent student, so the school offers enough to cover the entire need. This is also where colleges will offer more to certain demographics to increase their diversity, and less to other demographics.



Schools can even choose to offer more than the Need amount, thus reducing the amount the student/family pay.



Everything I've read or heard from those advising students on college applications has said this is so. And it is my observation with my own children as well as friends and neighbors.



I would love to see a study on the demographics but haven't seen one yet. I doubt the government or colleges would be of the political bent to do such a study. It would be interesting to see race, gender, ethnicity, religion, urban status, etc mapped out against how much Unmet need remained for students. It would have to break the data down to majors or narrow groups of majors. I'd bet you'd see white middle class males having larger Unmet need than any other group.


Sorry, I know this from both professional and personal experience. Those in school and foundational monies use similar algorithm (commercial) programs. It is nearly impossible to apply for any form of aide without internet access. There is no fudging... you are thinking old school ways of dealing with this issue. Nowadays, very few people are involved in the process which is too time consuming. To hire or compensate individuals to read through the financials would eat into the money best served for students. They don't ask for race or gender until money is approved. And, again only for demographic statistics info.

What is still seen by individuals, are acceptance packages that include essays and the like. Are there possible biases in this process? Sure, we are human after all.


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post #497 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 05:41 PM
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America: A Failing Marriage

There are still unique funding available based on very specific criteria, but that money was always limited. Example - there is college money available to children of first responders of 911; money available to two generations of the Tuskegee syphilis study; etc

I know that three generations of Henrietta Lacks are given free tuition to Johns Hopkins based on the value from HeLa cells over the decades.


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post #498 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 10:14 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Well, in my experience, too many students sit their and ask nothing because they do not know what to ask. If a professor wants input and questions there are ways other than the talking head approach to conduct a course. Sounds like you were in a situation of old methodologies of instructions. I find these awful for students to gain what they need to gain, critical thinking. Again, don't assume your situation is how all course are run or certainly how they are conducted under new accreditation standards.

If we don't question ourselves including our methodologies then we serve no one.


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Outside of philosophy classes critical thinking wasn't particularly welcome, no. But like I said, the hard sciences didn't fall into the category of indoctrination. Biology and Physics and Calculus were all too busy trying to beat their formulas and facts into the students memory to bother with things like demanding you accept that holding a door open for someone is condescending and sends them the message that you think they are so incompetent as to not be able to do so for themselves. I wouldn't attribute it to all classes, but to the general culture on campus, and to the softer classes like Business, Psychology, Sociology, History, Government, etc.

I can say, from attending 2 Universities, and having 2 sisters who attended 2 other Universities that the culture among most faculties in our region tends to be far left, and tends toward indoctrination, rather than critical discussion. They avoided philosophy, which was something I've always been interested in, so their critical thinking training at the University level was atrophied. Of course, I can only blame so much on the University. I obviously failed to instill in them the skills of critical thinking, so the blame lies in the home first.
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post #499 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 10:42 AM
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America: A Failing Marriage

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Sorry, I know this from both professional and personal experience. Those in school and foundational monies use similar algorithm (commercial) programs. It is nearly impossible to apply for any form of aide without internet access. There is no fudging... you are thinking old school ways of dealing with this issue. Nowadays, very few people are involved in the process which is too time consuming. To hire or compensate individuals to read through the financials would eat into the money best served for students. They don't ask for race or gender until money is approved. And, again only for demographic statistics info.

What is still seen by individuals, are acceptance packages that include essays and the like. Are there possible biases in this process? Sure, we are human after all.


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Soft indoctrination only happens when students lack critical thinking skills. I'd rather have a student who challenges and ask questions (even if some are faulty) then a bunch of mouth breathers who are likely engaging in social media than attending to the subject matter. These latter students are hardly indoctrinated into anything other than their social circles of online friends.

Real indoctrination has never taken place in universities, these are not reeducation camps in the classic sense. I do know university professors tend to present a logic argument in their field of study (otherwise they would have failed miserably in their dissertation and oral defense). Teaching is often just an extension of how the professor thinks professionally. It is still up to the student (in most cases) to present back their own logical argument. If the latter is never achieved than it was four to six years wasted, in my opinion.


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post #500 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 11:03 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

Well, it all depends on what you're signing up for. DD1 is taking a PhD level seminar in sustainable design. It's a no brainer that by virtue of the fact that you're taking this class you will listen to endless discussions about why we need sustainable design.

Do they present the la-land blinder view of drill baby drill? No. But the class isn't offered to debate whether we've screwed up the environment and have to fix it by sustainable design. It's offered to teach sustainable design skills.

Is it a case of academic bias or simply a case of learning what is in scope and what is not in scope?

In the two years I taught as a graduate teaching fellow (glorified teaching assistant &#128513 I presented many examples which could be construed as big business screwing the little guy. That was the whole point - get my students to think outside the box. If you've ever read the Freakonomics books, I used them as reading assignments.
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post #501 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 11:15 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Well, it all depends on what you're signing up for. DD1 is taking a PhD level seminar in sustainable design. It's a no brainer that by virtue of the fact that you're taking this class you will listen to endless discussions about why we need sustainable design.

Do they present the la-land blinder view of drill baby drill? No. But the class isn't offered to debate whether we've screwed up the environment and have to fix it by sustainable design. It's offered to teach sustainable design skills.

Is it a case of academic bias or simply a case of learning what is in scope and what is not in scope?

In the two years I taught as a graduate teaching fellow (glorified teaching assistant ) I presented many examples which could be construed as big business screwing the little guy. That was the whole point - get my students to think outside the box. If you've ever read the Freakonomics books, I used them as reading assignments.


This is a well stated argument.


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post #502 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 06:22 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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I don't dispute that the system fails on a regular basis, but those failures pail comparison to what would happen in the utopian ideal you proffer. In fact one of the issues I have is the willingness to accept those failures in the system we live under. The US Constitution was probably the most libertarian document ever conceived by man kind, but it has been mutated to impose the progressive ideas of the right and the left in this country.
Actually the Articles of Confederation were much better, but you're right that the Constitution was quite libertarian for its time.

So the fact that it has been largely subverted by those in power demonstrates my point that, even in the best case, it is impossible for the ruled to impose limits on the rulers.

Have you read http://www.amazon.com/Spontaneous-Or...dp/B012DL2SQ2? If not, you should. If you have, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why it isn't a valid proof of the immorality of the State.

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post #503 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 06:25 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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my son doesn't need the message that all men are rapists, which is what these lectures are really all about.
Is there actually anyone who believes that rapists are going to stop raping if someone tells them they shouldn't do it?

I guess those are the same people who think that a "gun-free zone" will stop someone who wants to murder people from doing so.

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post #504 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 06:36 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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I'm not saying diversity is bad, but I am saying it is wrong to discriminate based on race, gender, ethnicity, or religion.

If a company has a diverse customer base (or supply chain), they may indeed find value in diversity which offsets minor differences in professional qualifications or educational achievement. In such cases a particular individual brings a particular set of qualifications to meet a specific perceived need in the company.

But this is not how it works in real life. The check-box attributes are used to meet quotas (goals, whatever) regardless of other attributes, and in spite of other attributes. Government sanctions and lawsuits are powerful. People are being discriminated against because they are of a certain group, not because they don't meet objective qualifications. I contend that is wrong.

I've flown with diversity pilots who were passed along the system because everybody was afraid to fail them out. Employers were afraid of being sued for not hiring enough of that category, or were afraid of individual law suits. Gate-keepers were afraid of repercussions of failing them at various check points. You'd be shocked (and I suspect proud) of the machinations some employers have used to keep from having to fire some of these people. I've been a check airman at an airline who has ended the career of at least one airline pilot who didn't make the grade. And I've flown with many outstanding pilots regardless of minority status. When my kids are on an airplane I don't want diversity in the cockpit, I want excellence.
I think SJWs should have their own airline so they can fly with diverse crews.

The rest of us should have the highly-qualified ones.

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post #505 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 07:03 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Actually the Articles of Confederation were much better, but you're right that the Constitution was quite libertarian for its time.

So the fact that it has been largely subverted by those in power demonstrates my point that, even in the best case, it is impossible for the ruled to impose limits on the rulers.

Have you read http://www.amazon.com/Spontaneous-Or...dp/B012DL2SQ2? If not, you should. If you have, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why it isn't a valid proof of the immorality of the State.
Immortality or immorality? The fact is that even in a stateless society, eventually it will be subverted to someone's interests. It is a utopian ideal to imagine that a stateless society could exist for much more than a few days before eventually the stronger subjugate the weak and impose their will on others. I truly think the best we can hope for is some sort of agreement imposing restrictions on the power of the state. We did have that for a short period of time, but as you noted, that was subverted in short order, especially by men like Adams and Hamilton who strongly believed in a powerful centralized government, complete with an aristocracy. The abuses introduced by these would be despots continues to this day much enhanced by men like Lincoln, TR, Wilson and FDR.


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post #506 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 07:23 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Immortality or immorality? The fact is that even in a stateless society, eventually it will be subverted to someone's interests. It is a utopian ideal to imagine that a stateless society could exist for much more than a few days before eventually the stronger subjugate the weak and impose their will on others. I truly think the best we can hope for is some sort of agreement imposing restrictions on the power of the state. We did have that for a short period of time, but as you noted, that was subverted in short order, especially by men like Adams and Hamilton who strongly believed in a powerful centralized government, complete with an aristocracy. The abuses introduced by these would be despots continues to this day much enhanced by men like Lincoln, TR, Wilson and FDR.
It is true that one can avoid being murdered by committing suicide.

This is the same argument as you make for the State: that a Stateless society would be subverted to someone's interests, so therefore we should just accept our fate as pawns in the State instead.

Have you read the book I recommended? It proves the immorality of the State.

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post #507 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 07:42 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Is there actually anyone who believes that rapists are going to stop raping if someone tells them they shouldn't do it?

I guess those are the same people who think that a "gun-free zone" will stop someone who wants to murder people from doing so.
This isn't about men raping. It's about young women understanding that even in a place like a university bad things can happen.
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post #508 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 08:04 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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I think SJWs should have their own airline so they can fly with diverse crews.

The rest of us should have the highly-qualified ones.
SJW Quarterbacks seem to be having problems finding gainful employment
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post #509 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 08:05 PM
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This isn't about men raping. It's about young women understanding that even in a place like a university bad things can happen.
Or about inventing "bad things" when they simply regret having sex.
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post #510 of 525 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 08:20 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Or about inventing "bad things" when they simply regret having sex.
Would you care to compare false rape statistics vs unreported rape statistics?
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