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post #61 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 10:37 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by bandit.45 View Post
Are we Americans headed for a divorce?

I'm not starting a hate/love Trump debate here. What I want to discuss is the ever-widening rift between "progressives" and "conservatives", and the ugliness and toxicity we have watched grow and grow since the 1960s.

Are we headed for a divorce? Because in my 49 years on this earth I have never seen the level of pure blood-lust hatred between Americans against Americans. No longer do we, as a collective society, agree on the fundamentals of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. There are those, like myself, who say that the law of the United states must remain fixed, like a rock in the storm. Then there are others who say that the Constitution was written in pencil, and that those principles and precepts that no longer apply in the modern world should be tossed out in favor of more malleable laws that bob and float where the currents and tradewinds of popular sentiment take them.

We hear talk of Alaska, California, Oregon and Washington wanting to succeed from the union. Texas has been threatening it for decades.

Are we heading for another civil war? And what would that be like? I cannot fathom the Federal government allowing California to succeed from the U.S. If I am not mistaken, California holds under its golden ground over 1/3 of our domestic oil reserves. I do not see the Feds allowing this to happen. I can literally, in my minds eye, see tanks and troops rolling down Hollywood Boulevard. I can see Humvees and marines pouring out of Camp Pendleton, heading to Sacramento to quell violent riots and attempted takeover of the state capitol. I can see L.A. and San Francisco burning, people fleeing in droves to Arizona and Nevada... infinite, unending lines of cars and trucks and R.V.s winding along I-10 and I-40, desperately trying to get away from the eruption of violence between citizens and the U.S. Military.

I'm not trying to be dramatic here, but I can see this happening. Face it: we love each other, but we just cannot live together anymore.

I think it is getting to the point where Americans have to take sides and square off....Michael Douglas or Kathleen Turner, take your pick. It is not going to be an amicable divorce. It is going to be a War of the Roses of epic scale, that will devastate us and rock the rest of the world to its foundation. It will be friend against friend, brother against brother, wife against daughter. It happened before and it can happen again.

We are deluding ourselves if we say that our domestic problems are purely ours to worry about. There is a reason the rest of the world is watching us so intently now. They are much more hip to the implications of this impending divorce than we are. They know that the entire world economy could collapse into chaos if we don't handle this divorce right. They are scared sh!tless and they have every right to be.
I think there is some serious risk that in the decades to come we may see a dissolution of the Union. That doesn't mean we will become several nations, a possibility everyone discusses ad nauseum RE: Secession, but the much more likely scenario that we end the Republic a-la Rome.

This is likely inevitable. Look at the rhetoric and tactics of Progressives, which has been extremely effective over the last century, very much in part due to the fact that the "Right" or "Conservatives" are unwilling to play the same game, and try to act as if they are above it. With the advent of the Alt-Right--who are happy to utilize Alinsky's tactics against the Progressives--coupled with social media, we have reached what I think is a critical point. Balkanization hasn't just begun, it has overrun us. Americans are too busy identifying as "black" or "asian" or "arab" etc, and putting racial agendas above society, which is now resulting in white people beginning to do the same--something that they cannot be blamed for, in the current climate.

What I think will happen is we are going to see further balkanization. The Progressives will become more hysterical, shrill, violent, and take even more far-left positions. Meanwhile, the Right will adopt (over the coming years) the Alt-Right tactics (Progressive tactics) and, intentionally provoking the Left, and taking more extreme positions. As people become so far apart in ideas and values that they have nothing in common, violence will be the only thing left to them, and history has shown this repeatedly.

I think this trajectory has us set up for potentially 2 catastrophic scenarios, which would be analogous to 2 different European nations' situations in the 20th Century.

Scenario 1 is that the Right will merely troll the Left, as they currently are, while the Left becomes increasingly violent. Eventually, when the Left takes power again (which is inevitable) they will start dragging dissidents out of their homes, killing them in the streets just like the Left did in Spain 1936, and when their leadership responds "Embrace the Revolution" we will have the 2nd American Civil War (and the death of the Republic) just as Spain had it's Civil War.

Scenario 2 is that the Right becomes violent, in response to violence from the Left. This will result in our own version of the Italian "Years of Lead". An even worse, more violent and horrifying version of our "Civil Unrest" of the 1960's and 70's.

These aren't the only possibilities, but I think they should be every American's concern. Scenario 1 isn't exactly imminent either. Scenario 2 could be.


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #62 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 10:41 AM Thread Starter
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

Good stuff Kivlor. Thank you for the historical info. Keep it coming.
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post #63 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 10:54 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by bandit.45 View Post
Good stuff Kivlor. Thank you for the historical info. Keep it coming.
ROTFLMAO

Bill Clinton will forever be remembered as a pretty good Republican president, and it's not like Obama accomplished much worthwhile on the social front either (and that's counting ACA)

The Democrats never elected anyone from the fringes or anyone that actually governed from the fringes and sure as heck did not put any fringe policies in action. Up to this point the Republicans didn't either. George W Bush was remarkably Democrat in many aspects...

People seem to forget Pelosi wasn't the President, Obama was. And so on.
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post #64 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 10:57 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Good stuff Kivlor. Thank you for the historical info. Keep it coming.
I've been pointing to the analogies between us and Spain for ~6 years now. We're not there, but it's concerning.

One thing to point out about the Spanish Civil War is that the more modern history books have completely edited out much of the buildup, and are now trying to put it off as thought the Conservatives / Military were disloyal simply because of Military Reforms enacted by the Left. They weren't, and it is completely false.

Most books today have removed the stories of the purges. Senators were assassinated in broad daylight for being Conservative. 3,000 Catholics were dragged from their homes and murdered in the streets in a single day. After this, the President literally gave a speech stating that the country should "Embrace the Revolution" rather than rounding up the violent mobs. The military then started plotting a coup to restore order, working with the Falange (Fascists) and the Carlists (Monarchists).

Now we just say that Franco wanted power. But Franco wasn't in charge--he was 3rd in charge, and both Mola and Sanjurjo both died in separate plane crashes, Sanjurjo while planning the coup, and Mola while flying from Morocco to Spain to lead the Nationalist forces. This left Franco unexpectedly in charge. Franco has been horribly smeared by people rewriting history and blamed for atrocities he did not commit--EG the Bombing of Barcelona. (Mussolini ordered the bombing and Franco threatened to go to war with Italy over it, stating that he had not fought this war just to kill his own people)

Now, we're not to that point yet, thankfully. But a lot of the same factions are active.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #65 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:06 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
I think there is some serious risk that in the decades to come we may see a dissolution of the Union. That doesn't mean we will become several nations, a possibility everyone discusses ad nauseum RE: Secession, but the much more likely scenario that we end the Republic a-la Rome.

This is likely inevitable. Look at the rhetoric and tactics of Progressives, which has been extremely effective over the last century, very much in part due to the fact that the "Right" or "Conservatives" are unwilling to play the same game, and try to act as if they are above it. With the advent of the Alt-Right--who are happy to utilize Alinsky's tactics against the Progressives--coupled with social media, we have reached what I think is a critical point. Balkanization hasn't just begun, it has overrun us. Americans are too busy identifying as "black" or "asian" or "arab" etc, and putting racial agendas above society, which is now resulting in white people beginning to do the same--something that they cannot be blamed for, in the current climate.

What I think will happen is we are going to see further balkanization. The Progressives will become more hysterical, shrill, violent, and take even more far-left positions. Meanwhile, the Right will adopt (over the coming years) the Alt-Right tactics (Progressive tactics) and, intentionally provoking the Left, and taking more extreme positions. As people become so far apart in ideas and values that they have nothing in common, violence will be the only thing left to them, and history has shown this repeatedly.

I think this trajectory has us set up for potentially 2 catastrophic scenarios, which would be analogous to 2 different European nations' situations in the 20th Century.

Scenario 1 is that the Right will merely troll the Left, as they currently are, while the Left becomes increasingly violent. Eventually, when the Left takes power again (which is inevitable) they will start dragging dissidents out of their homes, killing them in the streets just like the Left did in Spain 1936, and when their leadership responds "Embrace the Revolution" we will have the 2nd American Civil War (and the death of the Republic) just as Spain had it's Civil War.

Scenario 2 is that the Right becomes violent, in response to violence from the Left. This will result in our own version of the Italian "Years of Lead". An even worse, more violent and horrifying version of our "Civil Unrest" of the 1960's and 70's.

These aren't the only possibilities, but I think they should be every American's concern. Scenario 1 isn't exactly imminent either. Scenario 2 could be.
@

Last edited by UMP; 02-22-2017 at 11:15 AM.
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post #66 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:14 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

@UMP

I deleted this, as you deleted the above and it is now irrelevant.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...

Last edited by Kivlor; 02-22-2017 at 11:19 AM.
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post #67 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:17 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
There are things that could potentially be done to prevent this. It's not set in stone.

I'm a big fan of 2A, but if things get that bad, I have no illusions of withstanding some siege. It's not a matter of the number of bullets, or training, but a matter of manpower. Now, a neighborhood alliance, or something else organized and with enough people...

ETA: I think a concern here is the exact mentality you have espoused, which I see in many of my conservative friends. "I'll hole up, and they'll have to dig me out like a tick" doesn't work. And that mentality won't help prevent this. Building a sense of community, of trust might.
I deleted my post because I feel that I'm adding to the divisiveness. Let's hope this never happens.
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post #68 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 12:15 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
I think this trajectory has us set up for potentially 2 catastrophic scenarios, which would be analogous to 2 different European nations' situations in the 20th Century.

Scenario 1 is that the Right will merely troll the Left, as they currently are, while the Left becomes increasingly violent. Eventually, when the Left takes power again (which is inevitable) they will start dragging dissidents out of their homes, killing them in the streets just like the Left did in Spain 1936, and when their leadership responds "Embrace the Revolution" we will have the 2nd American Civil War (and the death of the Republic) just as Spain had it's Civil War.

Scenario 2 is that the Right becomes violent, in response to violence from the Left. This will result in our own version of the Italian "Years of Lead". An even worse, more violent and horrifying version of our "Civil Unrest" of the 1960's and 70's.

These aren't the only possibilities, but I think they should be every American's concern. Scenario 1 isn't exactly imminent either. Scenario 2 could be.
I think many on the right have disengaged from discussions with the left. My liberal friends have gone looney or become violent. I don't really care that they liked Bernie Sanders or they think we should expand some social programs. The problem is they have attached truly horrible attributes to those of us who are conservatives or libertarians. They see us as horrible people with ugly desires.

And so we have stopped attempting to have rational polite conversation. We see the violent faction of the left as well as the fascist faction, and we realize those people are a lost cause.

I don't see the right initiating violence a la your Scenario 2. I do see a mob picking on the wrong victim, resulting in numerous dead rioters. That could lead to an escalation of violence perpetrated by leftists. We see this with BLM where cops and white people are targeted for violence. I think it could become more generalized.

Scenario 1 won't last very long before there are a lot of dead leftists. They can pull a few dissenters out of their homes, but very quickly new victims will learn to shoot their attackers.

I see us going one of two ways. One is we become a failed economy and a 2nd world nation. We retreat into more local or regional focus where the national government has failed or become mostly irrelevant. Think the fall of the Roman empire. The second path I see is breaking into several distinct countries or (more likely) several distinct alliances. Red/Blue. The USA remains a significant economic and military power in the world, but we become as 2 nations internally. Populations shift (they are already) to majority blue and majority red zones.
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post #69 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 12:37 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

California separating might be the new, trendy thing but what kept Scotland part of the UK? Defense, health care, welfare system, all of which they would have to do themselves if they did separate. Taxes would have to be so high it wouldn't be feasible or face a weak defense in these days of terrorism and a very toned down version of "entitlements", none of which would be acceptable. California or any other state won't split it's just all talk.

"I've paid double for every transgression I've ever made and that motel and that boat are little to ask for"
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post #70 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 12:38 PM Thread Starter
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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ROTFLMAO

Bill Clinton will forever be remembered as a pretty good Republican president, and it's not like Obama accomplished much worthwhile on the social front either (and that's counting ACA)

The Democrats never elected anyone from the fringes or anyone that actually governed from the fringes and sure as heck did not put any fringe policies in action. Up to this point the Republicans didn't either. George W Bush was remarkably Democrat in many aspects...

People seem to forget Pelosi wasn't the President, Obama was. And so on.
All presidents, in one way or another, move towards the center once they get in office. It is still to early to tell where Trump is going to land because he is not beholden to either party. The Repubs cannot handle not being able to puppet-master the guy. If I can say there is one thing I do like about Trump, and there are not many, is that he pisses off all the right people. Now if he can just put the parking brake back on his mouth and shut the fvck up about stuff he knows nothing about, he might be able to eventually sway some of the centrists like me who are still wary of him.

Like that Florida rally last weekend where he said something about Sweden coming under Islamic attack (which never happened)? His aides and advisors must have been sh!tting all over themselves when he started babbling about that. "Donald please shut up...shut up please....please will you just shut up now?" God! Could you imagine being one of his advisors? It must be like taking a hyperactive five year old to a carnival.

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post #71 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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I deleted my post because I feel that I'm adding to the divisiveness. Let's hope this never happens.
UMP, I do not believe in censorship of any kind. If it were me you could cuss and be as divisive as you want. But the moderators do have a responsibility to keep order on TAM. I get it. I think as long as you state your case in a calm and respectful manner you can state whatever case you want.
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post #72 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 12:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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California separating might be the new, trendy thing but what kept Scotland part of the UK? Defense, health care, welfare system, all of which they would have to do themselves if they did separate. Taxes would have to be so high it wouldn't be feasible or face a weak defense in these days of terrorism and a very toned down version of "entitlements", none of which would be acceptable. California or any other state won't split it's just all talk.
It would never happen.

I'm telling you...the Feds would never allow it. They will roll tanks and APCs down Ventura Boulevard before they allow California to break away.

One way to stop this sh!t right now would be to round up idiots like Louis Martinelli and charge them with sedition. No way you could make it stick, but throwing them in Federal jail for a few weeks might take some of the wind out of their sails. Or...it could make them into martyrs. It is a tricky game.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/m...ent-nationhood
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post #73 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 12:53 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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UMP, I do not believe in censorship of any kind. If it were me you could cuss and be as divisive as you want. But the moderators do have a responsibility to keep order on TAM. I get it. I think as long as you state your case in a calm and respectful manner you can state whatever case you want.
I know that what I posted is OK as far as the moderators are concerned.
However, given that I seem to be including a Bible verse in most of my posts, I have to hold myself to a higher level of accountability. I want to speak the truth, but I also want to be kind.
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post #74 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 01:00 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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It would never happen.

I'm telling you...the Feds would never allow it. They will roll tanks and APCs down Ventura Boulevard before they allow California to break away.

One way to stop this sh!t right now would be to round up idiots like Louis Martinelli and charge them with sedition. No way you could make it stick, but throwing them in Federal jail for a few weeks might take some of the wind out of their sails. Or...it could make them into martyrs. It is a tricky game.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/m...ent-nationhood
That might end up playing into their hand and give them the attention they want. But, I agree it would never happen. Even if it came to a vote I think that people would be smart enough to vote it down.

"I've paid double for every transgression I've ever made and that motel and that boat are little to ask for"
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post #75 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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I know that what I posted is OK as far as the moderators are concerned.
However, given that I seem to be including a Bible verse in most of my posts, I have to hold myself to a higher level of accountability. I want to speak the truth, but I also want to be kind.
Dude, thump that Bible all you want. This is the USA!

For a while anyway....
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