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post #76 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 01:32 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by Thor View Post
I think many on the right have disengaged from discussions with the left. My liberal friends have gone looney or become violent. I don't really care that they liked Bernie Sanders or they think we should expand some social programs. The problem is they have attached truly horrible attributes to those of us who are conservatives or libertarians. They see us as horrible people with ugly desires.

And so we have stopped attempting to have rational polite conversation. We see the violent faction of the left as well as the fascist faction, and we realize those people are a lost cause.

I don't see the right initiating violence a la your Scenario 2. I do see a mob picking on the wrong victim, resulting in numerous dead rioters. That could lead to an escalation of violence perpetrated by leftists. We see this with BLM where cops and white people are targeted for violence. I think it could become more generalized.

Scenario 1 won't last very long before there are a lot of dead leftists. They can pull a few dissenters out of their homes, but very quickly new victims will learn to shoot their attackers.

I see us going one of two ways. One is we become a failed economy and a 2nd world nation. We retreat into more local or regional focus where the national government has failed or become mostly irrelevant. Think the fall of the Roman empire. The second path I see is breaking into several distinct countries or (more likely) several distinct alliances. Red/Blue. The USA remains a significant economic and military power in the world, but we become as 2 nations internally. Populations shift (they are already) to majority blue and majority red zones.
I just want to point out that the places where the most violence will occur, should we see Scenario 1, would be in places like DC, where guns are illegal, and "Conservatives" are outnumbered >10 to 1. Sure, some will learn to shoot back, but the opportunity will become lower and lower. Mobs are dangerous. All it takes to force you to go on the offensive is that the mob set fire to your home. Now you have to come out and meet them. And this will end very badly for the victims. If the victim has children, they will be too focused on saving their progeny from the flames to really go on an offensive at all. Result: Lynched.

PS: I'm with you on not engaging most of the lefties in my life. I'll bother one or two in my office, politely, and of course anonymously here on the interwebs, but I don't engage with family or friends. And I don't post on social media. Not just because they are rabid--and they are--but because rabid people today have a tendency to try to ruin the people they disagree with. If someone knows where I live, and their politics aren't similar to mine, I don't want them Swatting me, or trying to find my clients and convince them I'm a Nazi.


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #77 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 02:16 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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I just want to point out that the places where the most violence will occur, should we see Scenario 1, would be in places like DC, where guns are illegal, and "Conservatives" are outnumbered >10 to 1. Sure, some will learn to shoot back, but the opportunity will become lower and lower. Mobs are dangerous. All it takes to force you to go on the offensive is that the mob set fire to your home. Now you have to come out and meet them. And this will end very badly for the victims. If the victim has children, they will be too focused on saving their progeny from the flames to really go on an offensive at all. Result: Lynched.

PS: I'm with you on not engaging most of the lefties in my life. I'll bother one or two in my office, politely, and of course anonymously here on the interwebs, but I don't engage with family or friends. And I don't post on social media. Not just because they are rabid--and they are--but because rabid people today have a tendency to try to ruin the people they disagree with. If someone knows where I live, and their politics aren't similar to mine, I don't want them Swatting me, or trying to find my clients and convince them I'm a Nazi.
It's not really a good thing you are choosing to disengage. The future won't be better until we all realize the limitations of our own perspectives. The worst thing is that people don't talk about issues, they talk about ideology. You are blaming leftists or whatever - this is not helpful. If we wanted to talk issues, I suspect we'd agree on more than you might think. If you are going to draw a line a demonize by ideology, then we have little in common. I see failures on the left, on the right, everywhere. They are all different and they will have different implications. They are not equal, but all are important. The communist/nazi stories are old and worn out. Neither map onto the problems before us. The past is not really a guide.
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post #78 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 03:01 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by troubledinma View Post
It's not really a good thing you are choosing to disengage. The future won't be better until we all realize the limitations of our own perspectives. The worst thing is that people don't talk about issues, they talk about ideology. You are blaming leftists or whatever - this is not helpful. If we wanted to talk issues, I suspect we'd agree on more than you might think. If you are going to draw a line a demonize by ideology, then we have little in common. I see failures on the left, on the right, everywhere. They are all different and they will have different implications. They are not equal, but all are important. The communist/nazi stories are old and worn out. Neither map onto the problems before us. The past is not really a guide.
Troubled, it's not that I don't want to talk with people about it--which is why I seek out dialogue online. The reality is that the level of crazy is so high out of the left (which doesn't mean the right can't get crazy, but that they're not exhibiting it in the violent, dangerous ways the left has been recently) that openly proclaiming my views can result in financial and social ruin.

Doxxing. Mob harassment campaigns to get people fired from their jobs. Swatting. If you have kids, an anonymous call to CPS alleging abuse. It's not worth the risk. Which is why I seek out anonymous modes of discussion. I've seen threats getting thrown around on my social media feeds. I've seen people lose their jobs and harassed out of their own community. All because being not liberal/progressive = Nazi, racist, woman-hating rape apologist. I like my life. And I have a duty of care to those around me to not bring harm down upon them.

If this continues, we will reach a point where most of society feels they can't even have a discussion with the other side. My side isn't getting violent. If you are on the left, maybe you need to get your side to calm down, and vociferously argue against them, openly, every time they argue "it's okay to punch a Nazi" while simultaneously screaming "everyone else is a Nazi". Shame them publicly when they apologize for violence against those they simply disagree with.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #79 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 04:57 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Mob harassment campaigns to get people fired from their jobs. Swatting. If you have kids, an anonymous call to CPS alleging abuse. It's not worth the risk. Which is why I seek out anonymous modes of discussion. I've seen threats getting thrown around on my social media feeds. I've seen people lose their jobs and harassed out of their own community. All because being not liberal/progressive = Nazi, racist, woman-hating rape apologist. I like my life. And I have a duty of care to those around me to not bring harm down upon them.
@Kivlor is correct. I personally have been “swatted” twice in the last 5 years (and for some reason these nut-jobs make the calls in the middle of the night). During the last incident I asked what the call was about and the police said someone called and reported “shots fired” and gave my exact address. I never discuss politics, social issues or religion IRL outside of my small circle of close friends because people have become noticeably more angry and volatile in recent years about these subjects and many have lost the ability to have civil discussions on these subject. And so, I have no idea why the “swatting” was done in my case, but the point is it is being done more and more often in recent years. It’s as if “swatting” is the new “prank phone call” of the day.

I have more than one friend who has been “disowned” by close family members because they voted for Trump. There have been multiple protest marches and civil unrest in my city due to the recent national elections. This sort of organized hysteria and hyperbole over a US President is ridiculous in my view. The balkanization that was previously mentioned is even more disturbing in that people now identify the “enemy” by sight … skin color, religious garb, uniform, etc. People in general seem to have no limits on their behavior these days, especially when it comes to politics, social issues and hating other groups. Is it worse than in the past? I don’t know, we do have a long and consistent history of social riots in the US, could be just more of the same old, same old.

As for the Yes California movement, they currently have 19000 signatures and need to gather 600,000 from registered voters in the next 180 days. What are the odds of that happening? I have yet to see their supporters gathering outside the grocery stores or canvasing neighborhoods hustling signatures. They better get busy .
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post #80 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

I agree with you Sonja. It is most likely a grassroots movement that will never gain traction....yet.

One major obstacle to California succeeding is the fact that these liberal Californians are too lazy and self serving to ever conjure the energy to actually get out and drum up that kind of support. They are too busy working on their tans and seeking out the latest kombucha recipe.
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post #81 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 08:02 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by Red Sonja View Post
@Kivlor is correct. I personally have been “swatted” twice in the last 5 years (and for some reason these nut-jobs make the calls in the middle of the night). During the last incident I asked what the call was about and the police said someone called and reported “shots fired” and gave my exact address. I never discuss politics, social issues or religion IRL outside of my small circle of close friends because people have become noticeably more angry and volatile in recent years about these subjects and many have lost the ability to have civil discussions on these subject. And so, I have no idea why the “swatting” was done in my case, but the point is it is being done more and more often in recent years. It’s as if “swatting” is the new “prank phone call” of the day.

I have more than one friend who has been “disowned” by close family members because they voted for Trump. There have been multiple protest marches and civil unrest in my city due to the recent national elections. This sort of organized hysteria and hyperbole over a US President is ridiculous in my view. The balkanization that was previously mentioned is even more disturbing in that people now identify the “enemy” by sight … skin color, religious garb, uniform, etc. People in general seem to have no limits on their behavior these days, especially when it comes to politics, social issues and hating other groups. Is it worse than in the past? I don’t know, we do have a long and consistent history of social riots in the US, could be just more of the same old, same old.

As for the Yes California movement, they currently have 19000 signatures and need to gather 600,000 from registered voters in the next 180 days. What are the odds of that happening? I have yet to see their supporters gathering outside the grocery stores or canvasing neighborhoods hustling signatures. They better get busy .
No one is seceding anytime soon. People always talk trash after they lose. Let's all just be polite and happy puppies, follow all the rules, and let our God-King and Father Trump single-handedly, like a magnificently maned beast, restore our "greatness." Seems totally reasonable and highly likely.
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post #82 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 08:45 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by bandit.45 View Post
'
I thought they were the 6th, but you may be right.

And yes, it would be easy for Trump to put a stop on government grants and subsides to California universities, businesses and local governments...

What would the fallout for doing that be? I don't know.
According to Fortune magazine and a lot of other sources, California is the 6th largest economy in the world.

California Passes France As World's 6th-Largest Economy | Fortune.com
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post #83 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 10:43 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

Thor,

What violent things have your liberal friends done?


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Originally Posted by Thor View Post
I think many on the right have disengaged from discussions with the left. My liberal friends have gone looney or become violent. I don't really care that they liked Bernie Sanders or they think we should expand some social programs. The problem is they have attached truly horrible attributes to those of us who are conservatives or libertarians. They see us as horrible people with ugly desires.

And so we have stopped attempting to have rational polite conversation. We see the violent faction of the left as well as the fascist faction, and we realize those people are a lost cause.

I don't see the right initiating violence a la your Scenario 2. I do see a mob picking on the wrong victim, resulting in numerous dead rioters. That could lead to an escalation of violence perpetrated by leftists. We see this with BLM where cops and white people are targeted for violence. I think it could become more generalized.

Scenario 1 won't last very long before there are a lot of dead leftists. They can pull a few dissenters out of their homes, but very quickly new victims will learn to shoot their attackers.

I see us going one of two ways. One is we become a failed economy and a 2nd world nation. We retreat into more local or regional focus where the national government has failed or become mostly irrelevant. Think the fall of the Roman empire. The second path I see is breaking into several distinct countries or (more likely) several distinct alliances. Red/Blue. The USA remains a significant economic and military power in the world, but we become as 2 nations internally. Populations shift (they are already) to majority blue and majority red zones.
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post #84 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-22-2017, 11:22 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by troubledinma View Post
People always talk trash after they lose. Let's all just be polite and happy puppies, follow all the rules, and let our God-King and Father Trump single-handedly, like a magnificently maned beast, restore our "greatness." Seems totally reasonable and highly likely.
Perhaps but this past election brought a new level of "trash talk" and violence. I will live my life as I always have, mostly unaffected by whoever is currently President. I just hope my health insurance doesn't get ****ed up yet again .
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post #85 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-23-2017, 09:20 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

@troubledinma

I want to add that I realize that my response to you continued the use of Left vs Right paradigm. Whether we like it or not, people align on this paradigm generally in the US (yeah there are those that don't, but they are a minority).

Ideology is related to issues. How you address issues is in essence ideology. So when we discuss "what should be done about poverty in America" you have those of one ideology arguing for their preferred solution, against the solutions of others.

Now, although I am being heavily critical of the "Left" in this thread, it does not mean I have no problems with the "Right" as well. It's just that my biggest concerns right now, and the concerns directly related to the original topic of this thread, are problems advanced by the so-called "Left". As I said upthread, either the "Right" will respond to this violence with violence, or they won't. If they do, then I will be advocating that they stop (outside of self-defense) and I will criticize such actions.

Now, I'm not maligning all people on the "Left" as evil. In fact, that is something more common on the "Left" than the "Right", as we have a tendency to view those who disagree with us as inexperienced and ill-informed, while the "Left" is currently arguing publicly that all who disagree with them are (((Evil))) [eg Nazis] and that because of this it is okay--nay, virtuous--to violently attack their political enemies.


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #86 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-23-2017, 09:32 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Originally Posted by Red Sonja View Post
@Kivlor is correct. I personally have been “swatted” twice in the last 5 years (and for some reason these nut-jobs make the calls in the middle of the night). During the last incident I asked what the call was about and the police said someone called and reported “shots fired” and gave my exact address. I never discuss politics, social issues or religion IRL outside of my small circle of close friends because people have become noticeably more angry and volatile in recent years about these subjects and many have lost the ability to have civil discussions on these subject. And so, I have no idea why the “swatting” was done in my case, but the point is it is being done more and more often in recent years. It’s as if “swatting” is the new “prank phone call” of the day.

I have more than one friend who has been “disowned” by close family members because they voted for Trump. There have been multiple protest marches and civil unrest in my city due to the recent national elections. This sort of organized hysteria and hyperbole over a US President is ridiculous in my view. The balkanization that was previously mentioned is even more disturbing in that people now identify the “enemy” by sight … skin color, religious garb, uniform, etc. People in general seem to have no limits on their behavior these days, especially when it comes to politics, social issues and hating other groups. Is it worse than in the past? I don’t know, we do have a long and consistent history of social riots in the US, could be just more of the same old, same old.

As for the Yes California movement, they currently have 19000 signatures and need to gather 600,000 from registered voters in the next 180 days. What are the odds of that happening? I have yet to see their supporters gathering outside the grocery stores or canvasing neighborhoods hustling signatures. They better get busy .
Wow. You're lucky that didn't end far worse! Swatting is basically an attempt at getting you murdered by cop. Do you know who did it, and / or what the motivation was?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #87 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-23-2017, 10:29 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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Thor,

What violent things have your liberal friends done?
I've had several liberal friends make violent threats and looney posts about violence on FB aimed at Trump supporters, conservatives, and Tea Party members. To my knowledge none of them have engaged in riots.

Note in my post you quoted I referenced the fringe elements of the left as engaging in actual violence. They are not the majority of the left but they are a significant faction. Ferguson, BLM, Berkeley, and numerous other riots have been real, have killed people, have destroyed businesses, have gravely injured people, and have instilled fear in the local population.

In addition, there is a definite attempt at destroying those who disagree with the left. This I have seen personally as others have described, attempting to end careers or socially damage those who disagree with the progressive agenda. This is a form of violence though not physical violence.
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post #88 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-23-2017, 11:05 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

I think you have to look to others who have accomplished bringing progressives and conservatives together... I had this same question after the election and ran across progressive conservative parties in other countries. This video is a great talk about it.


The day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to Blossom. - Anais Nin
Never underestimate the potential for things to improve in ways you cannot yet imagine. Karen Rohlf
Be soft as possible, but firm as necessary - Pat Parelli

Blossom's Road of Recovery and Reconciliation
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post #89 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-23-2017, 11:26 AM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

In the past, the Left assumed that there was one "right idea". If you didn't agree with the "right idea" you were either stupid or evil.

The Right thought that the Left had good intentions but were just naive.

Now, increasingly, the Right also believes that the Left is stupid or evil.

If you get two groups of people convinced that those who disagree with them are stupid or evil, nothing good is going to happen.

But, I've been listening to NPR lately. It seems as if they are truly trying to figure out why so many people voted against the Left (they're not all that good at it yet, but it seems like they are trying), so maybe that's promising.
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post #90 of 525 (permalink) Old 02-23-2017, 12:04 PM
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Re: America: A Failing Marriage

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In the past, the Left assumed that there was one "right idea". If you didn't agree with the "right idea" you were either stupid or evil.

The Right thought that the Left had good intentions but were just naive.

Now, increasingly, the Right also believes that the Left is stupid or evil.

If you get two groups of people convinced that those who disagree with them are stupid or evil, nothing good is going to happen.

But, I've been listening to NPR lately. It seems as if they are truly trying to figure out why so many people voted against the Left (they're not all that good at it yet, but it seems like they are trying), so maybe that's promising.
I think most people across the board are reacting against arrogance and an out of touch ruling elite, not the undying and mostly fictional right/left binary.
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