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post #31 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 12:08 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

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Never said they would go out of business. All I said was that they would most likely not give up subsidies to switch from a food/fuel crops to cannabis. Why would they? How does it benefit farmers financially to do so?
Because growing cannabis could be much more profitable? I know lots of farmers who would willing give up the subsidies (and all of their attendant rules and regulations) for the opportunity to simply farm again. OTOH, your assumption that they would have to pick or chose because suddenly alcohol sales would plummet is a faulty one. Why do you think millions (at least enough to truly affect the grain market) are suddenly going to give up drinking and switch to weed? People use their poison of choice. Those currently smoking weed would probably just continue to enjoy the product, albeit without the stigma. In the meantime, those drinkers, might try weed for the novelty, but there is a reason why they drink. Also the commercial cultivation of cannibis would not likely impact areas where corn is grown anymore than the commercial cultivation of grapes does.


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post #32 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 12:08 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

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He has "alternative facts", so don't bother asking for sources.
How Growing Pot Takes a Serious Ecological Toll | Alternet

The High Environmental Cost Of Illicit Marijuana Cultivation - Yale E360

Why Legalized Hemp Will Not Be a Miracle Crop - Modern Farmer

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32725.pdf
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post #33 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 12:14 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

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Because growing cannabis could be much more profitable? I know lots of farmers who would willing give up the subsidies (and all of their attendant rules and regulations) for the opportunity to simply farm again. OTOH, your assumption that they would have to pick or chose because suddenly alcohol sales would plummet is a faulty one. Why do you think millions (at least enough to truly affect the grain market) are suddenly going to give up drinking and switch to weed? People use their poison of choice. Those currently smoking weed would probably just continue to enjoy the product, albeit without the stigma. In the meantime, those drinkers, might try weed for the novelty, but there is a reason why they drink. Also the commercial cultivation of cannibis would not likely impact areas where corn is grown anymore than the commercial cultivation of grapes does.
You have hemp and then you have marijuana....genetically different in their cultivation and uses. If farmers do turn to growing cannabis, I would surmise the majority will most likely be industrial hemp...not smokable marijuana. if they want to grow medical marijuana, they will have to apply and come under the jurisdiction of the the FDA and be licensed to do so. Most farmers would not want to risk the capital outlay it would take to switch from traditional crops where they are guaranteed to make a profit and where the government has little oversight, to marijuana where they will be subject to governmental scrutiny and less guarantee of profit.
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post #34 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 12:20 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

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You have hemp and then you have marijuana....genetically different in their cultivation and uses. If farmers do turn to growing cannabis, I would surmise the majority will most likely be industrial hemp...not smokable marijuana. if they want to grow medical marijuana, they will have to apply and come under the jurisdiction of the the FDA and be licensed to do so. Most farmers would not want to risk the capital outlay it would take to switch from traditional crops where they are guaranteed to make a profit and where the government has little oversight, to marijuana where they will be subject to governmental scrutiny and less guarantee of profit.
??? you are aware that hemp was once a cash crop on many farms that currently now grow tobacco? Hemp has thousands of industrial uses. It also replenishes the soil naturally as its root system extends much deeper in the sub soil than does corn or wheat. Many farmers would leap at the opportunity to earn substantial profits while reducing expenses. Also, for the sake of your argument, land currently being cultivated for corn or wheat, continue to be cultivated for corn or wheat, since hemp or marijuana ideally grows in areas that would not support wheat or corn cultivation. Your argument basically boils down to "let's protect the status quo, because I am opposed to weed"

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post #35 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 12:24 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

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??? you are aware that hemp was once a cash crop on many farms that currently now grow tobacco? Hemp has thousands of industrial uses. It also replenishes the soil naturally as its root system extends much deeper in the sub soil than does corn or wheat. Many farmers would leap at the opportunity to earn substantial profits while reducing expenses. Also, for the sake of your argument, land currently being cultivated for corn or wheat, continue to be cultivated for corn or wheat, since hemp or marijuana ideally grows in areas that would not support wheat or corn cultivation. Your argument basically boils down to "let's protect the status quo, because I am opposed to weed"
Where did you get the idea I was opposed to weed?

All I am saying, is that America will not become a weed growing nation overnight just because you want it to. It will take an overhaul of the farming industry. Farmers who want to do it will have adversities to overcome. Even if you give farmers every incentive you can, it doesn't necessarily mean they will switch right away.

I for one would like to see hemp brought back. It makes great rope, great linen for clothing and it lasts longer than cotton. I have no problem with it. I thought the legalization of cannabis was stupid to begin with.

I'm just being pragmatic.
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post #36 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 12:44 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

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Never said they would go out of business. All I said was that they would most likely not give up subsidies to switch from a food/fuel crops to cannabis. Why would they? How does it benefit farmers financially to do so?
Do you have any idea how much people are willing to pay for an ounce of marijuana as compared to an ounce of corn or wheat?

To me, the argument is not just about how much each position would cost society (more criminals locked up if illegal, more users if legal). There is also the question of who bears the cost. If pot is legal, then most of the cost is borne by users and their families. To the extent that someone feels that using is bad (imposes a cost in lack of productivity), at least most of that cost falls on the user. With prohibition, the cost of someone using falls in large measure on other people. Innocent bystanders get shot in drive by shootings. Taxpayers have to pay for police and prosecutors and public defenders and judges and prisons and prison guards. Young people are seduced into being lookouts or dealers and drop out of school. Profits are diverted to criminal organizations.

So leave aside the fight over which position triggers more costs to society. I would much prefer a situation where the costs are borne primarily by the admittedly larger number of people who choose to use than than under prohibition where much of the costs fall on those who don't choose to use. Or to put it differently, why are we giving drug users the power to impose substantial costs on their neighbors?

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post #37 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 01:29 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

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Where did you get the idea I was opposed to weed?

All I am saying, is that America will not become a weed growing nation overnight just because you want it to. It will take an overhaul of the farming industry. Farmers who want to do it will have adversities to overcome. Even if you give farmers every incentive you can, it doesn't necessarily mean they will switch right away.

I for one would like to see hemp brought back. It makes great rope, great linen for clothing and it lasts longer than cotton. I have no problem with it. I thought the legalization of cannabis was stupid to begin with.

I'm just being pragmatic.
Ok, my bad. From your posts it seemed as though you were opposed to legalizing on the basis it would upset the status quo. Even this one - you are not opposed to weed, you would like to see hemp brought back but you think legalizing cannibas was stupid. Or do you mean you though criminalizing it was stupid?

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post #38 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 02:01 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

I don't have much of an opinion on whether to legalize or not. I don't personally care for the stuff. The only thing that makes sense to me though, is to deal with the marijuana issue at a Federal level.

My cousin, a cop, is now routinely busting folks transporting large quantities of pot out of Colorado into and through his state. A lot of law enforcement resources in states bordering Colorado are being stretched because of it. And these folks are NOT hauling that much pot to smoke themselves. They are doing it to sell and make a profit in their home state(s).

The different state laws are just creating a different, albeit more local breed of drug smuggler/dealer.

Either allow it everywhere or don't allow it at all IMO. THAT, I think, is why the Feds are openly talking about enforcement and ultimately will have to do something about it.
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post #39 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 02:07 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

One of the main problems with marijuana is that there are so many good uses for it. With the legalization of it in several states, people are beginning to wake up to the fact that it is useful for a wide variety of ailments. Yes, it can be a problem and people do get addicted to it, but that is true of other things that are perfectly legal. At this point it seems ridiculous to continue classifying it as a controlled substance. Government are going to wake up to the fact that it's a great revenue source that is non-taxable when it's illegal.

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post #40 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 02:08 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

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My cousin, a cop, is now routinely busting folks transporting large quantities of pot out of Colorado into and through his state. A lot of law enforcement resources in states bordering Colorado are being stretched because of it. And these folks are NOT hauling that much pot to smoke themselves. They are doing it to sell and make a profit in their home state(s).
Seems the states complaining about the costs of prohibition are making the case for legalization. That is the point. Iif you want prohibition, then you have to be willing to pay the cost of enforcing prohibition. Which is substantial. If you legalize, those costs go away.

What the states bordering Colorado are complaining about is that they used to be safely nestled far from the border with Mexico so they could "free ride" off cops in Arizona and New Mexico and off the feds. Now they have to pay the cost of prohibition themselves. I have very little sympathy for someone who says "I want prohibition but I want someone else to pay the costs of enforcing it".

And I agree with @CynthiaDe that there are important medical uses for marijuana. My wife had cancer. The chemo caused nausea. The MJ made that go away. The meds she takes to reduce the risk of cancer recurrence cause joint pain. The MJ makes that go away (or maybe it still hurts but she doesn't care as much?). Without MJ, she would be prescribed opiate pain meds. Those are legal with a prescription but much more dangerous than MJ. I hope they don't start enforcing the federal ban on MJ. I don't want my wife to stop taking her anti-cancer meds because of the pain and I don't want her on hydrocodone to make the pain go away.


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post #41 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 02:33 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

The drug issue has always been about big pharma and what they can and can't control. They pay off both sides....that's why the health care issue can't been solved.

Because nobody is willing to look at big pharma.....instead it's how to pawn off astronomical costs to insurance. But whether these costs are reasonable is really the question. Sure they need to cover RD and pay well, but do they need 10,000 percent markups? Nobody will ask because they're all paid off.

If pot is legal as a painkiller not so many people need tons of advil or ibuprofen. And there's clearly no issue with people getting heroin....or morphine as its more commonly known, .....when big pharma profits.

Furthermore, I postulate that keeping drugs illegal doesn't deter anyone. People who want to drug do so and people who don't do not abstain because it's illegal. If everything was legalized tomorrow I'd bet few who don't already drug would start.

The right does seem to be quite fond of whining about states' rights until the states start doing things they don't like.

That's the core difference between Republicans and Libertarians. Us Libertarians truly believe the decisions of others are not out business and we ask to be left alone to make our decisions.

Our personal beliefs don't matter beyond staying out of the business of others.

Republicans believe in freedom to the extent they approve of peoples' decisions.....when others do things they don't like they love to legislate.

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post #42 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 07:46 AM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

I'm fine with allowing each state to determine whether weed is legal within its borders and bringing it under ATF.

The legalization of "drugs" movement? Preposterous. Nope.

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post #43 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 09:09 AM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

Until the feds grant ConAgra, Monsanto or ADM a patent for weed, I expect it to remain illegal. Once these corporations are able to glean profits off the patents to pay off politicians all bets are off.
Every country that has adopted more sane regulations concerning drugs have benefitted from that decision. The American model of prohibition just doesn't work.

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post #44 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 12:37 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

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Ok, my bad. From your posts it seemed as though you were opposed to legalizing on the basis it would upset the status quo. Even this one - you are not opposed to weed, you would like to see hemp brought back but you think legalizing cannibas was stupid. Or do you mean you though criminalizing it was stupid?
It should have never been criminalized in the first place.
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post #45 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 12:39 PM
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Re: Trump needs to lay off the states on the pot issue

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It should have never been criminalized in the first place.

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