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post #46 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 06:44 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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But the point is that what you call "chaos", some might call "god". So there may not be a contradiction.
I thought the same thing. There was a missed point there. By someone who is a bit more put off by the usage of the word "God" than I am. I didn't think that was possible.

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post #47 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 06:45 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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But the point is that what you call "chaos", some might call "god". So there may not be a contradiction.

I think I felt this way partially because I was getting sick of all the clashes over religious views/beliefs and desperately tried finding some sort of middle ground.

After a while I realised I was fooling myself. Literalism still exists in abundance.


Well, that's an interpretation. I don't interpret chaos and randomness as god, I see at probabilities among random possibilities.

For instance, if we could back in time 3.9billions years ago and run this random experiment over over and over again. Each time we get a different end result rather than each time resulting in the same current biological make up we see now (including H sapiens).


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post #48 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 06:48 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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Well, that's an interpretation. I don't interpret chaos and randomness as god, I see at probabilities among random possibilities.
I really like your posts and I totally agree with your perspective on religion and "god" but I think you're still missing the point.
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post #49 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 06:59 PM
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God: Summing it up

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I really like your posts and I totally agree with your perspective on religion and "god" but I think you're still missing the point.


Well, in my world - chaos, random probabilities and boundless space and time are the usual terms used to describe the world and universes. Order would appear too purposeful.

While earth is NOT closed system, the disorders of entropy and randomness of thermodynamics are overcome by the constant input of energy. So, unless one wants to worship the sun (which to me makes more sense than an invisible god) I would say outside of this we are the chance product of random mutations and viable only due to the bombardment of our ultimate energy source.

And thus our, planet was born out of a random chaotic release of energy (we can still see it expanding). We are a chance product of this ultimate randomness.


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post #50 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 07:05 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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Well, in my world - chaos, random probabilities and boundless space and time are the usual terms used to describe the world and universe. Order would appear too purposeful.
In my world all those things are true as well. But one member made a valid point that you can call that random chaotic release of energy anything you want. You could call it "randchaotnergy" for example, but that might get a bit awkward. So one person chooses to call it "God" which in their mind doesn't necessarily suggest any sort of supernatural being or single entity or a bearded guy who hides behind a cloud and tells us to build a big wooden boat to hold all the dinosaurs because he's "testing our faith". It's giving a short, easy arbitrary name to all those natural forces. God is not a name I would necessarily chose but it's definitely faster and easier than saying "all those random forces and chaos that created our universe".
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post #51 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 07:11 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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In my world all those things are true as well. But one member made a valid point that you can call that random chaotic release of energy anything you want. You could call it "randchaotnergy" for example, but that might get a bit awkward. So one person chooses to call it "God" which in their mind doesn't necessarily suggest any sort of supernatural being or single entity or a bearded guy who hides behind a cloud and tells us to build a big wooden boat to hold all the dinosaurs because he's "testing our faith". It's giving a short, easy arbitrary name to all those natural forces. God is not a name I would necessarily chose but it's definitely faster and easier than saying "all those random forces and chaos that created our universe".


A person can choose to call random chaos surround by boundless space in a boundless time, god. I can't stop them, but to give no name associated with an interpretation of how we think our universe, world and life came to be is meaningless on its own. It leaves one to suggest it is all a mystery and much easier to interpret as god.


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post #52 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 07:18 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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A person can choose to call random chaos surround by boundless space in a boundless time, god. I can't stop them, but to give no name associated with an interpretation of how we think our universe, world and life came to be is meaningless on its own. It leaves one to suggest it is all a mystery and much easier to interpret as god.
I get it. Most casual readers or listeners will get the wrong idea because of the religious connotation of the word "God". I was simply debating the "accuracy" of the idea.
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post #53 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 07:19 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

I think the notion of God(s) as all powerful was likely born out of the agricultural revolution. We tamed and domesticated certain plants and animals. This probably provided an impetus for our position on earth and climate cycles left us wondering who controlled that.

As gatherer/hunters we probably saw ourselves as part of the animal kingdom rather than having dominion over it.


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post #54 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 07:23 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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I get it. Most casual readers or listeners will get the wrong idea because of the religious connotation of the word "God". I was simply debating the "accuracy" of the idea.

“The capacity to blunder slightly is the real marvel of DNA. Without this special attribute, we would still be anaerobic bacteria and there would be no music.”
― Lewis Thomas, Lives of a Cell, The



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post #55 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 07:23 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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A person can choose to call random chaos surround by boundless space in a boundless time, god. I can't stop them, but to give no name associated with an interpretation of how we think our universe, world and life came to be is meaningless on its own. It leaves one to suggest it is all a mystery and much easier to interpret as god.


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Hence why I believe that language is part of a problem...So much comes down to certain words that carry "baggage" with them. Some people say "magic" instead of quantum entanglement. Some people get annoyed with the word "spiritual" when they simply mean "contemplation". I am equally sure there will be many atheists who whole-heartedly will disagree with Elegirl's use of the word "god". There are million other examples. You can see it in all these debates (religions vs atheists etc): as long as the correct language is used and certain words avoided, the atheists will listen to the argument. As soon as a word is dropped that doesn't fit the scientific model, all hell breaks loose.
But I don't blame them: we need some sort of workable framework to use certain words in the right context.

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post #56 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 07:25 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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Hence why I believe that language is part of a problem...So much comes down to certain words that carry "baggage" with them. Some people say "magic" instead of quantum entanglement. Some people get annoyed with the word "spiritual" when they simply mean "contemplation". I am equally sure there will be many atheists who whole-heartedly will disagree with Elegirl's use of the word "god". There are million other examples. You can see it in all these debates (religions vs atheists etc): as long as the correct language is used and certain words avoided, the atheists will listen to the argument. As soon as a word is dropped that doesn't fit the scientific model, all hell breaks loose.

But I don't blame them: we need some sort of workable framework to use certain words in the right context.


It's called reading and interpreting with a bias. We all do it to some degree.


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post #57 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 07:30 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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It's called reading and interpreting with a bias. We all do it to some degree.
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post #58 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 11:48 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up

I've sometimes wondered if religion was tied to agriculture for other reasons. One is that in order to survive long term, an agricultural society needs to be willing to have some members starve rather than eat the seed crop for next year. That probably requires a central authority and a concept of sacrifice.

The other is that for agriculture to work well, people need to replant the seeds (cuttings etc) from the most desirable plants rather than using them. I can see that translated into giving the best of the crop back to the earth / mother / fertility goddess.


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I think the notion of God(s) as all powerful was likely born out of the agricultural revolution. We tamed and domesticated certain plants and animals. This probably provided an impetus for our position on earth and climate cycles left us wondering who controlled that.

As gatherer/hunters we probably saw ourselves as part of the animal kingdom rather than having dominion over it.


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post #59 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 11:52 PM
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Re: God: Summing it up


Darling it's better down where it's wetter, take it from me! --- Sebastian
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post #60 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-15-2017, 08:30 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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I think if you believe the bible (I don't) we are more directly related to Noah and his three sons. God wiped the earth clean with his great flood and chose Moses as the purist of humanity to start mankind over again. Or something like that.


I had to come back and correct this, I had put Moses instead of Noah, my bad.
No.
Noah came from what stock? Adam and Eve. We are ALL, every single one of us, descended from Adam and Eve. Just as you pass your genes on to your children, Adam, our earthly father, passed his genes onto us. ergo we all have Adams sin passed on to us. It's part of our nature.
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