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post #121 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 12:38 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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Yes, sorry, I am at the slow desk today...I have to admit I don't understand the trinity thing at all.

Doesn't Jesus often refer to his father? Or was he talking to himself?

I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. (John 20:17).

Father.... this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3).

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but ONLY the Father. (Matthew 24:36). (Referring to his return).

I am confused. Ok, now I am quoting the texts...Mission accomplished
Its sort of like an egg. You have the shell the yoke and the white. Separate parts but they are all an egg. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

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post #122 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 12:47 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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I never understood this: a serial killer on death row can repent his sins, ask for forgiveness and then enjoy eternity in heaven.
Then a perfectly decent person worshipping the 'wrong' kind of god or not worshipping anything at all is going to automatically spend eternity in hell. Bit unfair if you ask me.


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Everyone has the chance to be truly sorry for what they have done and ask for forgiveness. Repentance is more than being sorry though, it means turning away from what we have done and following a new path after Jesus Christ.
We all need that, whether we are murderers, or we steal, or curse, or gossip, or drink and drive, or lie, or sleep around, whatever it is, we all fail and we all sin. I think its great that people can turn their lives around and be forgiven and made whole. Its never too late while we are on this earth.
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post #123 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 04:46 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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There is certainly no Biblical proof.
And I shared a link that explained it. When the Bible talks about the worlds He made, I truly believe it to be more than just the 8 planets in our solar system. And with that in mind, it isn't a stretch to think there is life on those planets.

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post #124 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 05:29 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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And I shared a link that explained it. When the Bible talks about the worlds He made, I truly believe it to be more than just the 8 planets in our solar system. And with that in mind, it isn't a stretch to think there is life on those planets.

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Surely He would have mentioned that in his word to us?
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post #125 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 06:12 AM
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God always seems to be there with me in spirit, with a presence in my life that is "realer" than real!

"To love another person is to see the face of God!" - Jean Valjean from Les Miserables

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post #126 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 06:42 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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Surely He would have mentioned that in his word to us?
Maybe, maybe not. But you also know prophecy requires interpretation, and not every denomination is in agreement on that. From my own reading, I believe it is there. Another person can read the same verses I do, and disagree. I think that is the point some are making here, too.

But let me ask you this... If there truly is life out there, what difference does it make to Diana7 or Maricha75, here, on planet earth, in 2017? Does it affect your, or my, relationship with Him, one way or another? Is it a stumbling block in witnessing to others, telling them how He is working in your life? I am open to the possibility that he created other beings, on other planets. That is all I am saying on that particular subject.

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post #127 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 08:55 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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I always had trouble with this: on the one hand god supposedly designed everything knowing exactly what was going to happen (sinning, falling angels, thought crimes etc). Why does he then need to punish people for anything at all if all is in fact is supposed to be part of HIS plan and HIS grand design?
It seems free will comes into play at some point (although I don't see how it can, given that you & co are convinced that everything is part of god's plan. It is not possible to have it both ways - I am not sure how you don't the logical loop.
According to you, it seems that he's just messing around with us. Making us flawed, making us sin, punishing us and expecting us to worship him in return. "Because without sin entering the world, no one would know of God's Love, Mercy and Grace.....not to mention justice."

But maybe that is not the most incorrect depiction of the hopeless nature of the world we live in (except the god part).
God made us good, in Adam and Eve our first parents, as it were. They both sinned of their own accord. God told them the penalty beforehand, yet they wanted more. They wanted to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They got EXACTLY what they wanted. That is CERTAINLY free will. Now, after the fall, Adam and Eve are pumping out babies. What nature do their children have? They have the FALLEN nature of their parents. They do what they want to do. What does God do? He lets them do whatever they want.

You want to go rob a bank, go ahead. You want to go kill someone, go ahead. However, there are penalties for this, even in our world. Is the judge who sentenced Charles Manson to life in prison guilty because of the judgment he gave? Is God to be found guilty of mans freely committed sin?

The great HOPE in the Bible are the words "BUT GOD." With all this evil going on, God sends His ONLY perfect sinless son to die a horrible death to redeem (buy back) a group of people of His choosing. While we were yet enemies of God, HE DIED FOR US. What love is this!!!!!

Ephesians 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

The good message goes out to everyone. Anyone who wants to come may come, none will be turned away. YET, when I or anyone else offers up this hope, what does natural man say? "There is no God." "No, I want nothing to do with this." "The God of the Bible is evil." "I don't need God."

What does God do? He let's them have their way. He let's man go deeper and deeper into his depraved state. Certainly I have no need to describe to you the depth at which man will go into his depravity. One needs only to check the news for 5 minutes and cringe at what man is capable of.

Last edited by UMP; 03-16-2017 at 09:26 AM.
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post #128 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 09:16 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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If my father let me die on a cross, for someone else's stupid sins (or for any reason for that matter) I would probably leave straight away, without inheritance.

(Also, from your description, I have a feeling that child no2 is being a little sneaky. I don't know yet why but have to see how the story develops first...)
Jesus Christ IS God. God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE. (No I cannot fathom or understand the Trinity, but I do believe.)
Essentially God freely gave HIMSELF as a perfect sacrifice. He had to do it this way. Why? Because His PERFECT justice required a perfect sacrifice. No one else could or would. The penalty for sin is death. The death of Jesus Christ (God in the flesh) completely and perfectly PAYS the debt for sin, FOR US. It's a gift. It's a FREE GIFT of life, eternal.

You think child #2 is sneaky, because man is sneaky! It's his nature to connive and manipulate. Regardless, God will listen to a truly humble repentant spirit. If you don't feel that you are genuinely repentant and genuinely humble, ask God to give you that spirit. I am confident He will.
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post #129 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 09:27 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

Is the penalty for sin death, or is it being separated from the presence of god? I've heard the latter, but that may not be the mainstream view.

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Jesus Christ IS God. God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE. (No I cannot fathom or understand the Trinity, but I do believe.)
Essentially God freely gave HIMSELF as a perfect sacrifice. He had to do it this way. Why? Because His PERFECT justice required a perfect sacrifice. No one else could or would. The penalty for sin is death. The death of Jesus Christ (God in the flesh) completely and perfectly PAYS the debt for sin, FOR US. It's a gift. It's a FREE GIFT of life, eternal.

You think child #2 is sneaky, because man is sneaky! It's his nature to connive and manipulate. Regardless, God will listen to a truly humble repentant spirit. If you don't feel that you are genuinely repentant and genuinely humble, ask God to give you that spirit. I am confident He will.
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post #130 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 09:39 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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Is the penalty for sin death, or is it being separated from the presence of god? I've heard the latter, but that may not be the mainstream view.
True ultimate "death" is eternal separation from God. Our bodies are continually in decay from sin. We will all die, in time. However, we are not separated from God. The sun shines on the Godly and the Ungodly. The rain falls on your garden the same as it falls on the serial killers garden. You have been given life and breath today just as many others who will commit murder today are given life and breath.

The true FINAL death is when God will judge ALL of mankind on the last day.

I don't know about you, but I am not a righteous person. I have thought and done many bad things. If my judge were a local magistrate, he would think I've lived a pretty good life. However, God is my judge. The God that knows EVERY single thought that I have ever thought, EVERY single word I have ever spoken and EVERY intention of my heart. Now, we have a BIG problem.

I want a good attorney on that last day. My attorney will be Jesus Christ. My hope lies ONLY in Him. In and of myself, I have NOTHING to offer on my behalf, nothing.

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post #131 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 09:51 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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There is certainly no Biblical proof.

This disagreement right here is a good example of why A) Sola Scriptura and B) Every man his own priest are terrible concepts in practice. The idea that anyone can pick up a bible and understand it in its entirety, without knowing any context relevant to its creation is farcical. The Catholics win again.

There are many things that God didn't mention in scripture that exist in reality. He didn't see fit to mention them because Scripture was not intended to explain everything in existence in its entirety, but to explain certain, specific things and more importantly to make God's will known to Man.

Scripture says nothing about the existence of cells, but yet I've seen them. It also doesn't deny them. Scripture says nothing of gravity, and yet I experience it every day. And it doesn't deny gravity either. Maybe there is life out there. Maybe not. The existence of said life is not particularly relevant to Scripture.

A personal God, existing outside of Time and being all powerful, having created all things, may have created life on one or a million planets and it would change nothing about His Word.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #132 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 09:54 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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Is nobody really excited about the stuff science is actually discovering as we speak? I mean seriously...Science is not a belief system. It evolves and changes as new facts emerge. The main religions, by definition, have all the answers already, often in spite of evidence to the contrary. (I hate comparing the two and only mention it because somebody mentioned science as a belief system...).
Those of us educated as scientists call science a belief system. We believe that we have developed methods that are rigorous in their application. Over history, we have found flaws in what we thought were the scientific principles and have adapted. No scientist thinks we have it "right". No scientist thinks we ever prove anything, either, we simply collect more evidence, use it to review theories on this and that and adapt the theories as best suits available evidence.

And, while science seeks to provide mathematical models that help predict immediate future events, it is done with the clear understanding that we do not know reality. As is true for all humans, there is a reality, but nobody sees it truly...to a human, reality enters our awareness through our senses, which themselves are inaccurate, having been adjusted, adapted and trained through our lifetime of exposure to preconceived notions. Similarly, the tools of science were developed in response to what science believed about life, the universe and everything...and we are keenly aware that they are biased in ways we cannot fathom. Thus, science does not even pretend to be able to describe the fundamental nature of a thing.

For instance, while we have mathematical constructs about gravity and what it affects - we don't fundamentally know its nature - what causes it? And, without that, we don't know if there are ways to modify it, temporarily suspend it in local areas, etc. As much as many people revere science, it is still at a fundamentally base level, having but scratched the surface of anything it's touched so far.

What do you consider a "major religion?" Hinduism and Buddhism, which have more in common than different, represent the overtly stated belief system of approximately 25% of the world's population. And they are infused deeply and inform the cultural norms of the two most populated countries in the world.

An interesting note on China and religion. In 1949, the Communist party supposedly banned religion in China. But a person's beliefs don't change by legislation. So, it actually took until about 1980 before the government believed they had control over religion - but had not yet quashed it. Realizing that people will believe, and there's an inherent human need to answer certain questions (what is my role in the cosmos? what must I do to successfully navigate life's challenges such as adulthood and old age?), the government released, gradually, its hold. As of today, the Chinese government formally recognizes (e.g. gives favored tax status and legal protection) to five religions: Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Protestantism and two flavors of Catholicism.

Technically, "Religion" differs from "spirituality" in that a religion has formal rules, usually a governing body, and tends toward unwavering support of existing beliefs, with little permission for adjustments with time. Spirituality is more about the search for the essence of who you, as a person are, especially in regards to how you are connected to "all of it" - other people, the animal and plant kingdoms, the planet, the cosmos.

Anybody raised in a culture with a dominant religion is narrow-minded in a sense. Those of us raised in the USA have certain beliefs about religion. We often believe that all religions believe in a God. We often believe that all religions seek to expand, and that they have a heaven and a hell, and that there's a set of rules that adherents are supposed to follow or else be punished somehow. These beliefs, however, were originated in Christianity, and do not exist in older beliefs.

Judaism, as the precursor to Christianity, introduced a few of Christianity's principles...while Judaism believes in the existence of many Gods, there is but one who created all this, and deserves our worship. I am told by the fluent biblical Hebrew speakers that I know, that "deserves our worship", in the vernacular of the day, does not literally mean to pray to this god, but rather to acknowledge their importance - and our kinship. All older belief systems perceived that there is some larger consciousness than the individual human, and this larger consciousness (which may or may not have a will) is a product of all life...therefore, we "owe" this thing, because we formed it. It is as our offspring...but we are not superior to it, since no single one of us created it...it came about without us intentionally doing it. This particular method of observing the transcendent (transcendent means "too big for words") isn't how Jews observe today, but there's plenty of anecdotal and other evidence from back then that it was probably the case.

It would not be until Christianity was formalized (and became the first written religion) that rules were written, strictly believed that they must be followed, etc. Before that, the belief systems were meant as guides - behave this way and your life will go more smoothly, rather than behave this way or get punished.

Anyway, the belief systems that do not include a god as a being separate from humanity actually represent a greater proportion of the world's population than those that do believe in a non-human god. Anybody raised in a society with a dominant belief system is, without question, partially formed by it. In the US for example, most atheists believe that religions all believe in a God...and that's just not true. (Science can prove something false simply by finding one example in which it is not true - proving something true is nearly impossible). And, in the US, most of the population believes that religion and science are opponents - but once you get away from Christianity-based religions (which includes Islam, Mormonism and many other younger beliefs), the belief systems inherently believe that science will inform them and they'll make changes in the belief system to accommodate the new information. If you go back 5,000 years, religion WAS science - the early priests studied the movement of the stars and planets and took the knowledge to use as a method for organizing human culture. Constellations became cities, stars with planets were used to model placing governments in the center of populations, etc.

So - science IS a belief system. And, like Hinduism, Taoism, and many others, it does its best to be evidence-based. And it knows it doesn't have it right yet, just like most religions.


BTW, this is kind of timely for me...a year ago I got introduced to the works of Joseph Campbell and have been devouring his hours and hours of lectures on mythology and comparative religion - his angle was unlike any other. Instead of looking at variations in religions belief to identify what is different from culture to culture, he tried to find the basic seeds that were common to all - beliefs that existed in cultures that had no way of knowing each other. These common beliefs, he felt, were a clue to the innermost truths of the human soul and existence.

There are three kinds of business. Your business, my business and God's business. Whose business are you in? -Byron Katie
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post #133 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 10:14 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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This disagreement right here is a good example of why A) Sola Scriptura and B) Every man his own priest are terrible concepts in practice. The idea that anyone can pick up a bible and understand it in its entirety, without knowing any context relevant to its creation is farcical. The Catholics win again.

There are many things that God didn't mention in scripture that exist in reality. He didn't see fit to mention them because Scripture was not intended to explain everything in existence in its entirety, but to explain certain, specific things and more importantly to make God's will known to Man.

Scripture says nothing about the existence of cells, but yet I've seen them. It also doesn't deny them. Scripture says nothing of gravity, and yet I experience it every day. And it doesn't deny gravity either. Maybe there is life out there. Maybe not. The existence of said life is not particularly relevant to Scripture.

A personal God, existing outside of Time and being all powerful, having created all things, may have created life on one or a million planets and it would change nothing about His Word.
I can agree with this, to a certain point. After all, the Bible does say this:

Acts 8:
[30] And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
[31] And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

However, it also says this, which tells me I can read and learn myself.

2 Timothy 3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I am also fairly certain the thief on the cross did not go directly from Bible study that morning to being crucified next to Christ, and then immediately after death to paradise.

Luke 23:
[39] And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
[40] But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
[41] And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
[42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


God can give great light in the darkest of circumstance, even to someone who has never read the bible. John the Baptist leapt for joy in his mothers womb.
Luke 1:
[44] For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

No bibles and no priest in a mothers womb.

Having said this, I believe the correct method is to be taught, but also discern the truth yourself, for how will we know if our teacher is a false teacher unless we search ourselves.

Last edited by UMP; 03-16-2017 at 10:21 AM.
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post #134 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 10:31 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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I can agree with this, to a certain point. After all, the Bible does say this:

Acts 8:
[30] And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
[31] And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

However, it also says this, which tells me I can read and learn myself.

2 Timothy 3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I am also fairly certain the thief on the cross did not go directly from Bible study that morning to being crucified next to Christ, and then immediately after death to paradise.

Luke 23:
[39] And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
[40] But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
[41] And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
[42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


God can give great light in the darkest of circumstance, even to someone who has never read the bible. John the Baptist leapt for joy in his mothers womb.
Luke 1:
[44] For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

No bibles and no priest in a mothers womb.

Having said this, I believe the correct method is to be taught, but also discern the truth yourself, for how will we know if our teacher is a false teacher unless we search ourselves.
The rejection of "Every man his own priest" does not reject critical thinking. It just notes that if you are not steeped in the traditions, culture and history surrounding the words, you are not going to be able to properly understand what is meant. Perhaps you'll get lucky, and be right. But you would be remiss to presume your luck is either skill or because God's Word can be understood by all without context.

We aren't saying "take only what XXX says" but that these interpretations require a trained eye. This goes hand in hand with the rejection of Sola Scriptura, and can't be separated from it. The Scripture alone is not enough to understand what is going on, and what is meant in many cases. On top of this is making sure that we get the quote from Scripture in its full context, and not in isolation.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #135 of 777 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 10:45 AM
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Re: God: Summing it up

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Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
Do you believe that there are other planets? The bible makes no mention of planets, stars, galaxies, dna...just to be clear.
Seems to me Genesis 1-1&2 pretty much has that covered. I also like see folks wrestling with Job 26-7.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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