What do you think it means to "know" your husband/wife or to "lie with" your husband/wife? I equate "Lie with" with our euphemism "sleep with." "Know" is a little harder to define. In the "Song of Songs" (AKA "Song of Solomon") the woman speaks of her husband knowing her with his hand, so it is pretty obvious to me that she is speaking of him fondling her - the Song of Songs is all about sex and it is spoken of very positively in the context of the man and wife.
I never really read it , I couldn't for the life me understand that book... I needed commentary to make any sense of it.
So how do I take it? I defined it to include fondling when I taught it to my kids, and I also taught the larger principle of avoiding temptation
Then you are true to the "norm" Church teachings, that is what ours teaches as well.... our Pastor was more strict than most though......his sons was not allowed to be alone with their girl friends until near married, it was "courting" and they were always in groups, so fleshly temptation was blocked at every turn. No wonder both married very young !
I don't think if I had engaged in fondling that I would have stopped there because I remember how my hormones were raging at the time. I think if I had, and had defined it as sin, that God is anxious to forgive me rather than being anxious to smash me - I just need to acknowledge that to Him, pick up, and do better next time.
My oldest son says he doesn't feel he could STOP there either. So he feels as you.
What you say about forgiveness here is silly to me personally, 1st of all if you did engage in fondling, and you felt DIRTY about it (which of course is inevitable to anyone serious about their beliefs) - what an utter Kill Joy- it felt like heaven itself, you know you are going to do it again (and again & again!) ....then we need to go off & pray for forgiveness (again & again & again). This is the absurdity I am talking about. That is what I did at 1st. ....but I KNEW I wasn't going to stop ...so praying about it = a joke, a lie. I am a hypocrite in the 1st degree. BUT
.....deep down...in MY conscience, I just felt, what is the big deal ! Looking back, I believe there was NOTHING that would have stopped us anyway.... me & mine are physical touchers to begin with, and if I couldn't be alone with him, again, what a kill joy God is ! These rules. Being honest again, Had I even attempted to live the way Christians feel is PURE & RIGHT before a Holy God......... I would have likely been DEPRESSED....... dying of touch....... I would have resented God, felt he was a complete Ogre. That is honesty.
But yet, that was pushed upon us... the dirtiness. So how silly it is... you get together, burn for each other... both of you leave and go masterbate alone. I just don't see how that accomplishes anything good.... Even that is LUSTING to many!
Some who try to LIVE like this have set themselves up to destroy a healthy sense of thier sexuality & some might even need therapy down the road. Read this 1st post >> Porn and Christianity
(me & her pmed for some time, her story was so tragic, she tried to do it "right" ) .... I thank God I did not even try.
I read a heartbreaking story on that forum where this couple met in college, passionate sex, they became christians, they vowed, no more sex - no more touching.... cold turkey.......married a couple yrs later.... he was ready/dying to start where they left... . she told him on their wedding night, she didn't care if she ever had sex, felt nothing, his post was 6 months into thier marraige... still no desire, he was dying inside, heartbroken..... answers he got......Pray, go see a Christian counseler. Very very sad. Had they contunied 'the touching" but stopped the intercourse, I bet they would have been just fine!!
Accually we could look at this many ways.... God's word talks about virginity, Proof in these words "But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town" ... Deuteronomy 22:13-21 NIV - Marriage Violations - If a man takes a - Bible Gateway
What do we do with scriptues like this? As I have learend -even Heavy Petting for years can still = blood stained sheets, a rigid hymen.
But then we get to the new Testament and it seems even MENTAL is now a sin, so damned if you do, damned if you don't. Your hormonal make up is made a CURSE unto you. The main slamming I got on that forum yrs ago was that I was '"spiritually impure"...
And boys who masterbate endlessly yrs on end (those taking the purity road).... they get so darn used to their hand, that they can't even get off with thier wives.... is that a good thing? Can't we use some reason here. And today, should kids get married at 18 cause they can't control their lusts...
It is funny, the Preachers son did marry before he was 20, probably couldn't handle the LUST!
I guess my half christian /half worldly view throw out the mental spiritual Lust /guilt /sin/repent merry go round ... and just allows for pleasurable enjoyment while dating with honorable boundaries for saving the "genital to genital" contact for marriage. If a couple can't stop ...... then they need to do something else, but if a couple can -like we did- why be shamed for it. I guess this is my position.
I never gave my husband a BJ back then, but if I could do it all over again, I'd throw that in there too. I see the FUSION , of "one on one", him inside of me (intercourse) as the "sacred" thing (as it can create LIFE)... not the others.
I have not reached the point of a Relativist yet anyway.
I've never picked up a decent Book on what to teach children /our hormonally raging Teens about SEX.... I would like to pick up a Book written by a Sex therapist that is well respected....that would be my 1st choice.
My take on the scriptures you are referering to are that lust is a source of temptation (lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and pride of life). They are not sin in and of itself, and in fact, they are natural - but they can lead to sin when you dwell there.
I can handle this!!
One of the more popular Christian programs is "The way of the master" The Way of the Master
Their main witnessing tool is to dupe everyone into admitting we are sinful to the core over the LUST question? I think it's a cheap shot myself. The program seems terribly manipulating to me. Their methods.
(That's a point I'm certain some Christians will debate with me) ...and they would such as When Jesus was talking to the religious leaders, he was talking to married men - every one of them. When he told them about their inconsistencies and used the example of looking after a woman to lust after her, I think of this as them not just looking, but REALLY looking, following with their eyes so they can fantasize about her, lusting as in detailed, and allowing their minds to dwell on that. This even goes beyond the fantasies we talk about in the "Sex in Marriage" board. This is ONE PERSON they are fixing on and not guarding their minds. The bigger issue, though, was how they were willing to condemn someone else for that person's actions while overlooking their own shortcomings. That's where Jesus was putting it to them.
Yes, many Christians would debate you on your thoughts here, but NOT me, I agree with you!! This is balanced and reasonable to me. I can easily handle YOUR interpretation .