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Old 02-12-2012, 12:04 PM   #46 (permalink)
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BTW, I just mixed it up with a Catholic Bishop online (at least he said he was) on this Obama/Birth control issue. . .so. . .you ain't seen nothing, lol.

He suggested instead of paying for birth control, that women should keep their legs closed.

I asked why Catholic women can't keep their legs closed then?

Yessiree. . .my good Catholic Mom is saying a Hail Mary for me tonight. . .
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:54 PM   #47 (permalink)
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What do you think it means to "know" your husband/wife or to "lie with" your husband/wife? I equate "Lie with" with our euphemism "sleep with." "Know" is a little harder to define. In the "Song of Songs" (AKA "Song of Solomon") the woman speaks of her husband knowing her with his hand, so it is pretty obvious to me that she is speaking of him fondling her - the Song of Songs is all about sex and it is spoken of very positively in the context of the man and wife.
I never really read it , I couldn't for the life me understand that book... I needed commentary to make any sense of it.

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So how do I take it? I defined it to include fondling when I taught it to my kids, and I also taught the larger principle of avoiding temptation
Then you are true to the "norm" Church teachings, that is what ours teaches as well.... our Pastor was more strict than most though......his sons was not allowed to be alone with their girl friends until near married, it was "courting" and they were always in groups, so fleshly temptation was blocked at every turn. No wonder both married very young !


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I don't think if I had engaged in fondling that I would have stopped there because I remember how my hormones were raging at the time. I think if I had, and had defined it as sin, that God is anxious to forgive me rather than being anxious to smash me - I just need to acknowledge that to Him, pick up, and do better next time.
My oldest son says he doesn't feel he could STOP there either. So he feels as you.

What you say about forgiveness here is silly to me personally, 1st of all if you did engage in fondling, and you felt DIRTY about it (which of course is inevitable to anyone serious about their beliefs) - what an utter Kill Joy- it felt like heaven itself, you know you are going to do it again (and again & again!) ....then we need to go off & pray for forgiveness (again & again & again). This is the absurdity I am talking about. That is what I did at 1st. ....but I KNEW I wasn't going to stop ...so praying about it = a joke, a lie. I am a hypocrite in the 1st degree.

BUT .....deep down...in MY conscience, I just felt, what is the big deal ! Looking back, I believe there was NOTHING that would have stopped us anyway.... me & mine are physical touchers to begin with, and if I couldn't be alone with him, again, what a kill joy God is ! These rules. Being honest again, Had I even attempted to live the way Christians feel is PURE & RIGHT before a Holy God......... I would have likely been DEPRESSED....... dying of touch....... I would have resented God, felt he was a complete Ogre. That is honesty.

But yet, that was pushed upon us... the dirtiness. So how silly it is... you get together, burn for each other... both of you leave and go masterbate alone. I just don't see how that accomplishes anything good.... Even that is LUSTING to many!

Some who try to LIVE like this have set themselves up to destroy a healthy sense of thier sexuality & some might even need therapy down the road. Read this 1st post >> Porn and Christianity (me & her pmed for some time, her story was so tragic, she tried to do it "right" ) .... I thank God I did not even try.

I read a heartbreaking story on that forum where this couple met in college, passionate sex, they became christians, they vowed, no more sex - no more touching.... cold turkey.......married a couple yrs later.... he was ready/dying to start where they left... . she told him on their wedding night, she didn't care if she ever had sex, felt nothing, his post was 6 months into thier marraige... still no desire, he was dying inside, heartbroken..... answers he got......Pray, go see a Christian counseler. Very very sad. Had they contunied 'the touching" but stopped the intercourse, I bet they would have been just fine!!

Accually we could look at this many ways.... God's word talks about virginity, Proof in these words "But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town" ...
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 NIV - Marriage Violations - If a man takes a - Bible Gateway

What do we do with scriptues like this? As I have learend -even Heavy Petting for years can still = blood stained sheets, a rigid hymen.

But then we get to the new Testament and it seems even MENTAL is now a sin, so damned if you do, damned if you don't. Your hormonal make up is made a CURSE unto you. The main slamming I got on that forum yrs ago was that I was '"spiritually impure"...

And boys who masterbate endlessly yrs on end (those taking the purity road).... they get so darn used to their hand, that they can't even get off with thier wives.... is that a good thing? Can't we use some reason here. And today, should kids get married at 18 cause they can't control their lusts...

It is funny, the Preachers son did marry before he was 20, probably couldn't handle the LUST!

I guess my half christian /half worldly view throw out the mental spiritual Lust /guilt /sin/repent merry go round ... and just allows for pleasurable enjoyment while dating with honorable boundaries for saving the "genital to genital" contact for marriage. If a couple can't stop ...... then they need to do something else, but if a couple can -like we did- why be shamed for it. I guess this is my position.

I never gave my husband a BJ back then, but if I could do it all over again, I'd throw that in there too. I see the FUSION , of "one on one", him inside of me (intercourse) as the "sacred" thing (as it can create LIFE)... not the others.

I have not reached the point of a Relativist yet anyway.


I've never picked up a decent Book on what to teach children /our hormonally raging Teens about SEX.... I would like to pick up a Book written by a Sex therapist that is well respected....that would be my 1st choice.

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My take on the scriptures you are referering to are that lust is a source of temptation (lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and pride of life). They are not sin in and of itself, and in fact, they are natural - but they can lead to sin when you dwell there.
I can handle this!! One of the more popular Christian programs is "The way of the master" The Way of the Master Their main witnessing tool is to dupe everyone into admitting we are sinful to the core over the LUST question? I think it's a cheap shot myself. The program seems terribly manipulating to me. Their methods.

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(That's a point I'm certain some Christians will debate with me) ...and they would such as When Jesus was talking to the religious leaders, he was talking to married men - every one of them. When he told them about their inconsistencies and used the example of looking after a woman to lust after her, I think of this as them not just looking, but REALLY looking, following with their eyes so they can fantasize about her, lusting as in detailed, and allowing their minds to dwell on that. This even goes beyond the fantasies we talk about in the "Sex in Marriage" board. This is ONE PERSON they are fixing on and not guarding their minds. The bigger issue, though, was how they were willing to condemn someone else for that person's actions while overlooking their own shortcomings. That's where Jesus was putting it to them.
Yes, many Christians would debate you on your thoughts here, but NOT me, I agree with you!! This is balanced and reasonable to me. I can easily handle YOUR interpretation .

Last edited by SimplyAmorous; 02-12-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:54 PM   #48 (permalink)
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SA, you're going to continue to get me until I finally board this plane .

I disagree a bit with the assertion that only Christianity and Islam are evangelistic. It is canonized in those two, and I can't positively exclude all others there. Practically speaking, I see atheism as very actively evangelistic just as a start.
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:37 PM   #49 (permalink)
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SA, I feel like maybe the direction has changed from your original question to me. You don't seem to be asking me for an explanation like I was under the impression you were doing. Would you mind clarifying your objective in our discussion, please. Maybe I'm approaching the discussion from the wrong angle.

I realize our backgrounds are different. For example, my understanding of the message of the new testament has always been one of freedom from the law, communication with God, forgiveness instead of condemnation, and hope of eventual perfection. I've never perceived it like you are telling me. I'll have to wait until I have a full keyboard to explain.

But may I ask you, my experience was much different from what you describe that our beliefs will lead to. You have access to your son, so you will know better than I if he was repressed. When I speak to my daughters, I don't hear any of the things you tell me will be there. We have at least one study showing those with sex partners prior to marriage tend to have a higher divorce rate. Is it not possible that there is something to be learned from these? Is this all invalid? Why do you think that teaching our kids the way I described will necessarily end up like the situations you described or that teaching as you are advocating would have led to a better situation? I'm curious why the rigidity of the association in your mind.

I'll check on the reply later tonight when I can get my laptop again and have a full keyboard.
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:43 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I disagree a bit with the assertion that only Christianity and Islam are evangelistic. It is canonized in those two, and I can't positively exclude all others there. Practically speaking, I see atheism as very actively evangelistic just as a start.
I mean in the sense that "their GOD / Holy Books " commands them to win souls.
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[B]Christianity [/B]... In Mark 16:15, Jesus says, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation." Here we find that Jesus, commanding His disciples and likewise commanding us, reveals that we are to "preach to all creation." ......" If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town" (Mark 6:11)
Islam .....
Quote:
The Qur'an:
Qur'an (8:39) - “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.”

Sure-- many atheists want to change the attitudes of the religious but they do not have a Holy Book telling them they are commanded to convert & win others to their non-belief.

I remember reading only these 2 have such commands...I felt it was interesting none the less. Also Islam's belief's have a Hell ...similar to Christianity >> Hell In Islam (Jahannam)
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:12 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Are you seriously complaining here, about something as utterly innocuous as merely being "thrown off a forum"? And this when you obviously didn't share the views of the majority of members there anyway, but simply joined by "mistake"?


I would suggest that while the Constitution of the United States is being torn to shreds daiiy, in Divorce Courts throughout the land, and while people are being robbed of their life's savings in the process, there must be other subjects more valuable to consider.

With not even the suggestion being made that the above-described victims have, in the marriage or at any other time or place, ever done anything wrong, and while all of this is happening only to satisfy the insatiable GREED of opportunists, surely the above-facts deserve more attention than any question of one's feelings being hurt by someone who does not agree with him on religion!
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:48 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Hey Galt... I was not complaining, just opened discussion. I didn't join by mistake. I joined 3 yrs ago. Yes, this is a boring subject and I couldn't agree more with you that other things are much much much more important in this life . The world is hardly falling in on me.

I like to discuss many things. What do you want to do about Greed of opportunits? I agree, it's a worthy discussion, you are free to start a thread on it , go for it. All is welcome here, the beauty of this forum.

I'm happy , my feelings are fine. I love life. Totally agree with you - I could be doing better things than posting on my own thread.... but guess what...I like to do that I never even proposed it was important to anyone. I am thankful for those who engage me in conversation anyway!

Your're the best Shy_Guy!! Another deep thinking poster who goes into detail, always appreciate that -and your time.

Enjoy that trip you are taking !
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:40 PM   #53 (permalink)
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And boys who masterbate endlessly yrs on end (those taking the purity road).... they get so darn used to their hand, that they can't even get off with thier wives.... is that a good thing? Can't we use some reason here. And today, should kids get married at 18 cause they can't control their lusts...
Well, this is the problem. . .I think it's not unreasonable to ask kids to delay their sexual behavior by a couple of years.

I do think it's unreasonable to ask kids to delay their sexual behavior by 10 years (or more sometimes when you count it).

Other "primitive" cultures look at us in amazement. Young men and women are married off by age 15 at the latest. The tribal elders know their bodies are ready for sexuality.

It's weird to think my oldest son could be married (he's 14) but it's honestly biologically and in some cases, culturally true.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:53 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Don't be silly, nothing is out of line.

I allow my kids much freedom, I have been happy with their descions thus far...... they just LOVE youth group, many friends there, they want to go!

Also it is important for me , that my children hang with kids who are not out drinking, doing drugs, having sex at 15.. I want them to have a good future, make right decisions.... I don't really want my kids having casual sex , that is not the ideal for me.

But that IS the norm in society today. I see many many pluses to the Youth Group they attend, plus I adore the Leader & his wife, but again, not the theology.... when we go to the Plays, they are all stabs of "salvation now, or you will be lost".

With what my kids are taught at home, there is definitely a "countering" if too much repressiveness is picked up in church. I don't see how they could possibly go the way I did....

I had to .... My oldest sent me a FB message just last week saying he just watched a movie and the Mom was just like ME. I had to ask what was that .... Ha ha... "Meet the Fockers"... I was Gaylords Sex therapist Mom!

How could anyone be repressed in that atmosphere, ha ha

Funny you talk about this. My 15 year old daughter is home a lot. She's always asking me to play bored games or do the Kinnect Dance game with her, always talkative and still wants to hang with her parents and family.

Last night I asked her why she doesn't hang out with her friends. She previously did all the time in elementary school. She told me..."What? Do you want me to hang out and get drunk or smoke weed or have sex? That's all my friends are doing now."

Her closer friend growing up was raised in a very religious, born again Christian household. My daughter and her went to youth group events together many times. She can't hang out with her anymore because she's drinking and smoking weed.

I wish I could find a place where my daughter belonged where I didn't think she was going to get into trouble. I really want her to have friends and enjoy her time with them. It really stinks. I'm not sure if it's just because of where we live or what. My husband and I were just talking about solutions for her. He said she could get a job. I was thinking more of a club or hobby where she could meet like minded kids but was at a loss. I don't see a job as an outlet for fun.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:56 PM   #55 (permalink)
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My opinion is that the first step to having a relationship with God is to be honest with Him. Think about it, could you hide anything from him anyway?

With people, it probably would have bothered me at one point in my life what they thought about me. Now, I expect they are going to disagree with me on some points at least. That's where they are on their journey ... I'm just at a different point in my journey. I ask God to not let me miss the boat, and we talk about that. I'm open to change as led, but I have to honestly believe that this is the direction God would lead me before I'm ready to change.

That's all I have on it from my viewpoint. I'm not surprised that some people want to pray the way you said, but I think you have to be honest, absolutely.
Your thoughts on being Honest with our Creator, I couldn't agree more and that is exactly what I always have been....even then....BUT....it was always a war in my head over many things ... I've just always been a seeker of knowledge...which has interferred with "faith".. ....what subject is more fasinating than the origins of "GOD"? What is REAL, why so many beliefs? (I used to read alot of books on Cults -but authored by Christians) What compels people to believe as they do. We can't all be right ...can one lone religion have all the answers and the others are wrong? I can't think that narrow, it wars against my mind again.

I realize this doesn't happen for others... but I am not them. Didn't God give me my deep analytical mind & put these desires in me -- I find it a Joy even...but I have been shamed by some who feel I need to Just have "faith".


I can't say I have ever had a "spiritual experience" - but I have felt "PEACE" guide me in many ways over the yrs - I feel this is
"GOD", like an unsettling would come over me (spiritally speaking I was not sure which direction to go)....so I would pray and WAIT until I had that "Peace" ...it's never let me down yet ! This is the closest I have felt to God, I still have that today. I do not feel anything has been lost , only gained ..but it is still a sticking point for many believers.

I am much happier today in comparison also , I felt mentally caged then, I was more serious and more judgemental of others.

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SA, I feel like maybe the direction has changed from your original question to me. You don't seem to be asking me for an explanation like I was under the impression you were doing. Would you mind clarifying your objective in our discussion, please. Maybe I'm approaching the discussion from the wrong angle.
Never really thought about it either way! It's all good. Just replying and bouncing off what comes.

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I realize our backgrounds are different. For example, my understanding of the message of the new testament has always been one of freedom from the law, communication with God, forgiveness instead of condemnation, and hope of eventual perfection. I've never perceived it like you are telling me. I'll have to wait until I have a full keyboard to explain.
What you describe would be how my son talks.....what he is experiencing in his walk IS very different from what I did...
back then - but I was not happy at home either , turmoil with my step Mom, I lived in a camper in someone's back yard for a time, the youth group we went too had a scandel with the Leader fondling young girls (not me).

I am sure such things could make a different , also I was being taught by a fundamentalist Aunt that if I didn't say a salvation prayer, I would go to Hell. Who wants to go to Hell ? I was young & impressionable. I never dared talk to my kids like that about GOD, to this day, I do not get along with her, she sees the world in an "us against them" mentality. I asked her one time if God told her to stone her childen, if she would... I was a little shocked when she said "Yes". I think that is a bit dangerous when people take the word that seriously, don't you !?? Even a young age, my mother would talk about "testing the spirits" and I muttered something about Abraham taking his son up to offer him to God as a sacrifice ! Something is very twisted with such a story.

Both me & my son have what I would call "Joy" in our lives, we are at peace with our beliefs ... but still....they are differnet. My husband couldn't care either way -he has always been happy just BEING & breathing. ME & son enjoy the haggling really, my husband probaby finds it stupid. We both learn from each other. He helps me see the genuine Christian side, I help him see that not all non-Christians are miserable, leading to a destructive end (they do tend to preach like this in my church).

He tells me ..what I had was "religion"... I can not disagree with him in any way.


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You have access to your son, so you will know better than I if he was repressed.
He accually blamed Satan for the desire to masterbate a few yrs ago, so yeah.... sorry....that was freaking NOT healthy! I stopped him immediately with such a thought and brought Testosterone into the conversation.

Quote:
We have at least one study showing those with sex partners prior to marriage tend to have a higher divorce rate. Is it not possible that there is something to be learned from these? Is this all invalid? Why do you think that teaching our kids the way I described will necessarily end up like the situations you described or that teaching as you are advocating would have led to a better situation? I'm curious why the rigidity of the association in your mind.
My answer.. my own story and others I have read. We obviousy did something wrong. Where I feel I went wrong, was looking at touching as so dirty. I understand you are not going to agree with me. That is fine. It's my postion and I doubt I will be moved by it.

Speaking of your daughters... Please Please please, you can ignore everything else in this post ...but DO take a moment to read my thread , I would adore to hear YOUR views ...disagreements....you can post on that thread.... I especially want to hear from YOU -being the genuine Christian man that you are.

What I will Teach my Daughter about SEX...in relation to LOVE, her emotions, her life


You are a Gem Shy_Guy !
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:02 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I'd say I put reasoning way above feeling, as feeling can get us into a world of trouble (I bet you've been there!?)....I find reasoning can get my feelings back in check , keeps me balanced - or so I think it does.

If you ever heard how Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism) slammed reason, even calling it a wh***... you would be vilified, most have no idea! I've posted his words here ... (4th post towards middle -look for quotes in green >>> Parrothead, why the delete button to the "SA challenge"?

I consider myself a Deist... I bet there are plenty in the pews today who identify more with this but would never speak it out of their mouth.....it just means we believe in a Creator but we do not subscribe to any creeds.... we see God in nature, what is evident to ALL.... and wisdom can be found in many places, there is no "Us against them" mentality.... we are all God's children... and we need to strive to make the world a better place for All.

Many would not be able to tell the difference from us or Christians from our daily life, we are much more tolerant of things that aren't hurting other people, we are very responsible, we hate injustice just as much... The Golden Rule is our foundation.

In fact the Declaration of Independence was a Deistic document. Christians and Deists will argue who had more influence... the Declaration itself - has no mention of Jesus in it ...only God.

Deist Roots of America




I feel the same !
I understand but is it really logical to believe or disbelieve anything that can't be proven? How can anyone know? When someone tells me they have a relationship with God I am always thinking...you have a relationship with yourself.

If we didn't teach religion since birth but introduced it to teens or adults, do you really think it would stick? It seems to me it is more of a cultural/traditional belief system passed on through the years than it is truth.

Humanity has a fixation of fear of the unknown or the idea that we alone are fully responsible for our choices and fate. We are always looking for comfort, guides and excuses. I don't really understand this if I be honest.
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:30 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Last night I asked her why she doesn't hang out with her friends. She previously did all the time in elementary school. She told me..."What? Do you want me to hang out and get drunk or smoke weed or have sex? That's all my friends are doing now."
That's a shame Trenton!! she doesn't have ANY friends who don't ? When I was a teen, it was very HARD on me cause my BEST BEST BEST friend started to get wild, I loved her so much but I had my morals, I did try POT one time -just to see if my mind would be affected and it was... I started & , then fell into a little stream, I don't regret it but her hanging out with dopers, and having alot of sex with guys, I let her go, I was boring from then on... but then I met my husband -he became my best friend.

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Her closer friend growing up was raised in a very religious, born again Christian household. My daughter and her went to youth group events together many times. She can't hang out with her anymore because she's drinking and smoking weed.
Sounds like they were too strict!! Often leads to rebellion.. So common!! I see it with some of the families in my church, some of these home schooling parents, their kids start making Fake FB profiles to hide from their parents so they can talk to their GF or BF .... My kids tell me about it, I'm not surprised.

Some may find this too lenient... but I barely have any rules at all in my house!! It is the open free flowing communication -that seems to make the difference.....we want them to see the dark realities of living carelesly, I don't try to sheild them from stuff...let them see a Maury show -where these girls don't know who the baby's dad is , a program on drugs, prisoners, STD's.... we'll tell them--you do this-- this happens to you... if you get put in jail & you deserved it, you will stay there....if you get money & waste it, don't expect someone else to pickup the tab.... Consequenses for every action.


Quote:
I wish I could find a place where my daughter belonged where I didn't think she was going to get into trouble. I really want her to have friends and enjoy her time with them. It really stinks. I'm not sure if it's just because of where we live or what. My husband and I were just talking about solutions for her. He said she could get a job. I was thinking more of a club or hobby where she could meet like minded kids but was at a loss. I don't see a job as an outlet for fun.
Is the schools that bad there ? We live more in a country area, I think there are alot of great families, and kids, I can't really complain. My kids do that "Carepenters Project" every year.

Any programs to volunteer for that could use kids, I know you do alot of that, haven't met good families in these things. It has always seemed to me.. Any family who devotes themselves to voluneteering for a community generally has some darn good kids, just something I have noticed, I have met more poeple BECAUSE of my kids -than anything else really.

No other youth groups in the area ? Not sure how you feel -with her going to one -but as you can see, it doesn't bother me that my kids are believers !

My kids youth group is so amazingly wonderful, that I host a Huge Bonfire once or twice a year , movie outside under the stars, music, open my house, my yard, to about 70 people-it is a great time, I am never worried about the type of kids coming to hang out -for literally hours into the night, sometimes 5-7 spending the night too. They are a great bunch, and I love doing it.
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:52 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Trenton View Post
If we didn't teach religion since birth but introduced it to teens or adults, do you really think it would stick? It seems to me it is more of a cultural/traditional belief system passed on through the years than it is truth.
One of my son's best friends was a drug dealer/womanizer who was in jail and found GOD when he was about 20, the guy is AMAZING, his dad is even in jail today. He had it rough but I guess he got tired of that life, and well - he really IS a changed man today ... and now his mother, her family all the siblings are in church. Funny how his MOM and me think so much alike but our sons are very "christlike". Even though we are not like them, we both adore them.

I would joke with my son he loves him more than us. MY son would literally try to use HIM as the reason GOD is real, such an outstanding testimony ..l...saying "MOM....look at his life, where he came from....bla bla bla..".. but none of us can base our experience off of another's experience, ya know.

But yes, people can surely find God later in life -our Pastor & wife too, he had a normal job for many years- well loved, he was a Teacher, start attending a little church, felt called to be a Pastor... so he quit his comfortable job, started from nothing...he had a vision....has had a nice thriving church for many many years, I feel he is living his passion. But he too, was not raised a christian.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:02 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Trenton View Post
As a mom I think I should be grateful but as the parent who loves her, I'm really hoping she can find a place where she feels like she belongs and enjoys spending time beyond her family. My husband tells me that's something I can't find for her and that I'm making up things to worry about.
I would feel as you do, I bet your daughter takes after your husband, that is why she is not a trouble maker, ha ha, My daughter takes after my husband too. Very calm, laid back, not my temperment at all.

I am thrilled we had a family move next to us -up the hill - who has a girl her age, same grade, they have become best friends, she practically lives here, and although she fights with my other kids terribly -almost like they are real siblings, I still thank God for her -cause I know how important it is for girls to have that "best friend" thing going on. I know it was for me, back then, but I didn't have the "family setting" that your daugher has ....so I guess so long as she has close connections , even if it is Just MOM. That's wonderful too !
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:11 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Default Re: I just got thrown off of a forum...

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
One of my son's best friends was a drug dealer/womanizer who was in jail and found GOD when he was about 20, the guy is AMAZING, his dad is even in jail today. He had it rough but I guess he got tired of that life, and well - he really IS a changed man today ... and now his mother, her family all the siblings are in church. Funny how his MOM and me think so much alike but our sons are very "christlike". Even though we are not like them, we both adore them.

I would joke with my son he loves him more than us. MY son would literally try to use HIM as the reason GOD is real, such an outstanding testimony ..l...saying "MOM....look at his life, where he came from....bla bla bla..".. but none of us can base our experience off of another's experience, ya know.

But yes, people can surely find God later in life -our Pastor & wife too, he had a normal job for many years- well loved, he was a Teacher, start attending a little church, felt called to be a Pastor... so he quit his comfortable job, started from nothing...he had a vision....has had a nice thriving church for many many years, I feel he is living his passion. But he too, was not raised a christian.
That is an example of finding God out of desperation, in a search for some type of comfort for the hardships we face. That's what I was talking about when I said that it's very human of us to want to believe in God and to have created him with the teaching that he created us.

If it was not being taught, just like if other religions were not being taught, we'd be forced to find strength and comfort within ourselves and from one another. The ultimate in responsibility.

I know many think the world would go to hell quickly, but I think that's a last ditch attempt to try to find logic in something innately illogical on so very many levels.

I'm sure you know that I live my life by a very strong set of ideals and values and try very hard to not be hypocritical and if I am found to be hypocritical to try and correct it. This, for me, comes from within. I don't need a book or God to tell me that working very hard to help others and help myself is the right thing to do. I don't need it to tell me that faithfulness in marriage is important or anything in excess is dangerous. I just know.

I also know that belief in God will not exempt one from being a really f'd up person who does a lot of selfish, sometimes hurtful to others, things that go against everything the God they believe in tells them not to do.

I always wonder. Does humanity need a parent that badly? Can we never actually take responsibility and grow up and recognize right from wrong without having to have an entire community tell us this?

It's almost as if our selfishism keeps us from accepting that each and every one of us is connected...The faithful and the faithless.
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