As a mom I think I should be grateful but as the parent who loves her, I'm really hoping she can find a place where she feels like she belongs and enjoys spending time beyond her family. My husband tells me that's something I can't find for her and that I'm making up things to worry about.
I would feel as you do, I bet your daughter takes after your husband, that is why she is not a trouble maker, ha ha, My daughter takes after my husband too. Very calm, laid back, not my temperment at all.
I am thrilled we had a family move next to us -up the hill - who has a girl her age, same grade, they have become best friends, she practically lives here, and although she fights with my other kids terribly -almost like they are real siblings, I still thank God for her -cause I know how important it is for girls to have that "best friend" thing going on. I know it was for me, back then, but I didn't have the "family setting" that your daugher has ....so I guess so long as she has close connections , even if it is Just MOM. That's wonderful too !
One of my son's best friends was a drug dealer/womanizer who was in jail and found GOD when he was about 20, the guy is AMAZING, his dad is even in jail today. He had it rough but I guess he got tired of that life, and well - he really IS a changed man today ... and now his mother, her family all the siblings are in church. Funny how his MOM and me think so much alike but our sons are very "christlike". Even though we are not like them, we both adore them.
I would joke with my son he loves him more than us. MY son would literally try to use HIM as the reason GOD is real, such an outstanding testimony ..l...saying "MOM....look at his life, where he came from....bla bla bla..".. but none of us can base our experience off of another's experience, ya know.
But yes, people can surely find God later in life -our Pastor & wife too, he had a normal job for many years- well loved, he was a Teacher, start attending a little church, felt called to be a Pastor... so he quit his comfortable job, started from nothing...he had a vision....has had a nice thriving church for many many years, I feel he is living his passion. But he too, was not raised a christian.
That is an example of finding God out of desperation, in a search for some type of comfort for the hardships we face. That's what I was talking about when I said that it's very human of us to want to believe in God and to have created him with the teaching that he created us.
If it was not being taught, just like if other religions were not being taught, we'd be forced to find strength and comfort within ourselves and from one another. The ultimate in responsibility.
I know many think the world would go to hell quickly, but I think that's a last ditch attempt to try to find logic in something innately illogical on so very many levels.
I'm sure you know that I live my life by a very strong set of ideals and values and try very hard to not be hypocritical and if I am found to be hypocritical to try and correct it. This, for me, comes from within. I don't need a book or God to tell me that working very hard to help others and help myself is the right thing to do. I don't need it to tell me that faithfulness in marriage is important or anything in excess is dangerous. I just know.
I also know that belief in God will not exempt one from being a really f'd up person who does a lot of selfish, sometimes hurtful to others, things that go against everything the God they believe in tells them not to do.
I always wonder. Does humanity need a parent that badly? Can we never actually take responsibility and grow up and recognize right from wrong without having to have an entire community tell us this?
It's almost as if our selfishism keeps us from accepting that each and every one of us is connected...The faithful and the faithless.
BTW, I just mixed it up with a Catholic Bishop online (at least he said he was) on this Obama/Birth control issue. . .so. . .you ain't seen nothing, lol.
He suggested instead of paying for birth control, that women should keep their legs closed.
I asked why Catholic women can't keep their legs closed then?
Yessiree. . .my good Catholic Mom is saying a Hail Mary for me tonight. . .
Oh you were having fun ! We have some catholic channel , sometimes clicking you'll see the Nuns reciting this, they look so terribly bored out of their minds, God can not possibly get any joy out of man /or woman repeating these repititious sayings , can't wrap my head around that either, I think he would take more delight in us doing something useful and at least looking enthusiastic about it.
That is an example of finding God out of desperation, in a search for some type of comfort for the hardships we face. That's what I was talking about when I said that it's very human of us to want to believe in God and to have created him with the teaching that he created us.
If it was not being taught, just like if other religions were not being taught, we'd be forced to find strength and comfort within ourselves and from one another. The ultimate in responsibility.
I know many think the world would go to hell quickly, but I think that's a last ditch attempt to try to find logic in something innately illogical on so very many levels.
I'm sure you know that I live my life by a very strong set of ideals and values and try very hard to not be hypocritical and if I am found to be hypocritical to try and correct it. This, for me, comes from within. I don't need a book or God to tell me that working very hard to help others and help myself is the right thing to do. I don't need it to tell me that faithfulness in marriage is important or anything in excess is dangerous. I just know.
I also know that belief in God will not exempt one from being a really f'd up person who does a lot of selfish, sometimes hurtful to others, things that go against everything the God they believe in tells them not to do.
I always wonder. Does humanity need a parent that badly? Can we never actually take responsibility and grow up and recognize right from wrong without having to have an entire community tell us this?
It's almost as if our selfishism keeps us from accepting that each and every one of us is connected...The faithful and the faithless.
Trenton, you know I think just like you !! Absolutely in everything you have said here . So even though me & you came from different backgrounds, we are in the same place in these thoughts...
I've told my son a # of times.....right now he is connected with Umteen friends, he has a community of believers, he lives with christians, even his JOB is at a christian camp for goodness sakes.. this IS connection -it holds him up even ,encourages him in his faith. This is why he is happy & Joyful.
I tried to explain to him one day... EXample... take a man who has GOD, has belief, has his Holy bible to read every day ...but doesn't have any friends, for whatever reason , he is alone -little connection, no church, no community ... (which this generally isn't the scenerio mind you-it is that sweet fellowship that IS the connection )
...then compare that with another man who has a family, but they are agnostics, don't go to church, just living and enjoying the life that has been given them, caring for each other, friends visit, co-workers enjoy him, HE has abundant CONNECTION with others in his life..
........ now who is going to have more Joy, more happiness, in life ... the man who has nobody - but has belief .... or the agnostic man who has a fuller life with loving people surrounding him everyday?
The only argument that the believer is better off is a supernatural one -it is about the Afterlife -his going to heaven, while the agnostic will be rejected, deemed to hell.
Is that enough for us to believe ? then that gets into the whole Pascal's Wager....
1. What of the man or woman who was never introduced to the teachings of God at all? Isn't it God's messengers (the people who believe) who fail here because the message didn't get out? Can they be expected to believe in something they were never taught?
2. Let's take me for example for number two. I've devoted my life to being someone who helps children. It's my passion and it's where I dedicate my energy. I don't steal and I'm not dishonest (OK sometimes with little things but I struggle even with that). I would never hurt anyone deliberately (although I have hurt some in my past out of being selfish and made amends feeling honestly sorry about it). I try very hard to be a good wife, mother, friend and person. I believe in and would try to help all people, all the time without reservation.
Will this God reject me simply because I say that I don't know if he exists? If so would I want to be in a heaven with him anyway?
So my answer is that I would not want to be in a heaven where the only pre-requisite for getting in is not whether or not you were a good person but simply whether or not you chose to believe.
Location: On a clear day, I can see Mt. Rainier ... but you can't count on the days to be clear here ...
Posts: 1,862
Re: I just got thrown off of a forum...
SA and Trenton, I have been off for a while. I am working in the Bay Area this week, so I got to spend the evening with my younger daughter and my future son-in-law. We had a great evening.
Trenton, I know there is no way to make the critical point in my thinking that I keep referring to have meaning to you, but I will say that I am a logically minded person. I will acknowledge that there is no way to put God under a microscope, nor is there any way for atheists or scientists to disprove Him. It consumed my mental energy for months. When I say it was sex that began to bring me back to faith, what was going on in my mind was around DNA being a 4 letter alphabet that was used to write instructions for life as well as the family history. That was something in the back of my mind. The moment came when I was walking on the beach and saw someone's initials scratched in the sand with a plus sign inside a heart - you've seen things like this I'm sure. It occurred to me that I couldn't prove that someone had done this, but I saw it as evidence that intelligence had visited that place, and this was the evidence I had. My mind exploded with this thought into the DNA question again, then into areas of sexual reproduction first, then how it would be necessary to have a parallel evolution in order for that to have formed because it could only happen if both the male and female fit physically, carried the right genetic material, and the right delivery mechanism. Then, physical isn't enough, but there has to be the effects of the pheromones, proper reaction to pheromones, and that has to be perfectly coordinated. Hormones have to produce drive at the right time to allow for fertilization. There must be enough pleasure involved in it to make it desirable. Then we can look into family.
This was only the beginning. My mind was about as busy in the next 6 months putting it all together as it had been in the previous (can't remember for sure how many ... more than 11, though).
I wish I could write the whole thing down, but without context, it will never mean anything. I'm not sure it will ever carry the same meaning to someone else as it did for me. However; it became very logical, and the evidence behind it was the intelligence just like the intelligence I could see behind the little love symbol on the beach.
Some people may not have to go through as long and hard a process, but I wouldn't count on it. The point is, though, it's not as simple as someone needing a parent, or needing help in crisis. Sometimes it is quite logical, but perhaps in an area different than what you are looking. Don't just discount the logic behind it in many who have spent the toil to work it out. How did I work it out? Was it inspiration? I'll leave that one for you to answer.
That was just to get back to where I could see a creator again. From there to finding Christian faith again is another story ... and it also isn't as simple as needing a parent or being in crisis. It was part of the same process, though.
Location: On a clear day, I can see Mt. Rainier ... but you can't count on the days to be clear here ...
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Re: I just got thrown off of a forum...
SA, I will look at the thread, but I am going to have to focus on work. The weekend is ending for me. I'm not sure how much time I will have to respond there. I will if I can.
I will say here that I think I see some errors in logic in the personal evidence you are drawing from your own experience. It seems that you got beyond what should have been inhibitions prior to marriage, but that didn't stop the repression in marriage.
Once again, I don't think it's as simple as "If parents do X, then kids will respond by doing Y." That means that when a kid rebels, it is not necessarily a result of the parent being too strict, or too lax, or too anything. More than anything, it is a result of the kid having a free choice, and exercising that. Parents do the best they can, but there are no guaranteed results. We're not mechanical.
We've focused so much on sex, though, that I think in our discussions we are losing the balance of how marriage as a whole was taught in my case, and in the case of my wife. This is where the hazard of our super short courtship comes in more than in the sexual area in my opinion. Let me put this in balance from where I see it, please.
First, my wife was raised in a Buddhist household. Sex was not discussed in her household, and she got minimal education, and then, it was just in time. She told me that when she started her first period she cried because she thought something was seriously wrong with her. Her mother and sisters laughed at her for crying,then explained to her what was happening. Her sex education was likewise minimal. Her mother began telling her about sex in marriage when she came to visit us before our wedding, and continued as we were married. It's nice to have a mother in law who is willing to help like that . My wife converted to Christianity shortly before she met me.
My mother taught me that God invented sex, and He thought it was a good idea or He wouldn't have invented it. She told me it was for full expression in marriage. For me, sex was a reason to look forward to marriage.
However; my mother taught me that there is more to marriage than sex. She taught me to respect women, and my dad reinforced that by living it in front of us. My dad worked very hard, so mom was the one that was with us most of the time during teaching times. But dad always reinforced what she taught, and he showed it by example. I have many fond examples of my dad's behavior in other areas as well. I don't know if he knew I was watching, but he always behaved like he expected me to be watching and learning.
My mom also taught me that marriage was about love, friendship, companionship, partnership, and building a family. These were always things I wanted, so marriage was never something I was afraid of. I was, in fact, foolishly bold, but it worked out. The short courtship we had did not really give me time to know if I could have all of these things with my wife, but I beleived I could, and it worked out for me. When I say I wouldn't recommend a courtship like ours, I mean I would want the couple to have a chance to begin developing some of these things.
Now, truth is, I trust my wife 100%. She is my best friend. She is my buddy and my companion. For partnership, she is very capable in the tasks she takes on in our division of labor, and she partners with me to guard our health, morality, etc. We have a beautiful family together (3 kids: 2 homemade, and 1 adopted). She is a wonderful mother. And she is a fantastic sex partner. Sure, we've had our rough patches, but all in all, my marriage is exactly what my mother taught me it should be, and it was my mother's teaching that made me aware that I needed to develop those things. I saw in my dad that a man could do that, and I saw in the two of them together what I wanted in a marriage and family. Our family is different, but it has developed the same things. My mother nailed it. It was my choice whether or not to listen, but I'm glad I did.
(Maybe I should say, in the spirit of being honest, that my wife was not my first girlfriend. However; the first was bad news. I'm glad now that my mom and my dad both recognized it and talked to me about that. It made me angry at the time that they didn't like her, but when I thought about it, I saw their point. Fortunately, that girlfriend took herself out of the picture with her actions before I actually rebelled ... don't know if I would have actually rebelled, but it is the closest I ever came to it. Afterwards, I did see that mom and dad were absolutely right about her.)
Absolutely, sex is an important part of marriage. I understand there were problems for you in the past, and I am sorry that happened. My experience was very different even though I was taught abstinence until marriage. I was taught about this in a very positive way, though. I would say that although sex is important in marriage, it wouldn't mean much if I didn't have the friendship, companionship, partnership, and love from my wife. Now, we also have family, and many pleasant memories that we can share ... getting old together and sharing memories was another thing I always thought would be pleasant about marriage.
You know what? Nights on the road when I start writing about her, I really miss her. I'll be back to her on Friday night ... Fortunately, I don't have to travel much anymore. I have a great wife ...
EDIT: I know this is long, but let me add one of my dad's examples. This is one of my favorite stories. When I was growing up, mom and dad always taught us to not be greedy. We weren't to rush in and grab food before everyone else, but take our turns. And we were told it was greedy to always grab the biggest piece of cake or biggest of anything.
One time when I was about 6 or 7, dad said he would split a coke with me since we only had one bottle of it in the house. He got two glasses and poured back and forth trying to fill them evenly, but he didn't let the foam settle all the way before moving from one to the other. When he finished pouring, one of the glasses had a little more than the other. It wasn't much, but it was noticeable. I wanted the glass with more coke, naturally, but I remembered what they always taught me. Since I wanted one, but knew what I was taught, I hesitated to reach for either one of them. Dad, without hesitation, reached out and took the glass with less coke in it.
I've never forgotten that little scene. Dad always lived what he told us, even if he didn't realize I was watching, or why I was watching. I've never forgotten his example.
shy_guy let's say one naturally lives by the terms set out in the bible. My overall question is why does one have to believe in God in order to be accepted by him. If he knows what's inside our hearts then how come a kind and good heart is not enough?
That is the part that gets me. It is parental and it is illogical.
Location: On a clear day, I can see Mt. Rainier ... but you can't count on the days to be clear here ...
Posts: 1,862
Re: I just got thrown off of a forum...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trenton
shy_guy let's say one naturally lives by the terms set out in the bible. My overall question is why does one have to believe in God in order to be accepted by him. If he knows what's inside our hearts then how come a kind and good heart is not enough?
That is the part that gets me. It is parental and it is illogical.
The basic foundation of Christianity goes like this:
Nobody in history has ever been perfect. Since God is perfect, nobody has accomplished His standard - everybody has fallen short. People may be very good, but nobody is perfect.
God did not want to leave people hopeless, but since His standard is perfection, and nobody had met that, he took the punishment upon himself. That was the punishment for all the imperfection. (AKA Sin).
Nobody is good enough to make it to God on his own. But when God took the punishment upon himself. Now, He offers us the righteousness as in all the price has been paid, all punishment served, and we are no longer held accountable for it. It doesn't mean it never existed, but just that the sentence has been paid in full.
The faith that is spoken of is not so much a belief that God exists, but rather the faith to accept a free gift from God, and that gift is the freedom from paying for our imperfections (AKA Salvation).
That's the three paragraph version: Nobody is perfect, so God paid the price himself. The freedom from the sentence is available as a free gift to anyone who accepts it by faith. This is the "Good News" which is what "Gospel" and "Evangel" both mean.
EDIT: There is a passage in the Bible that talks about the person who has never heard, and nature being a law. Can you allow me to go into that answer on another day? I'm running out of time tonight .
So my answer is that I would not want to be in a heaven where the only pre-requisite for getting in is not whether or not you were a good person but simply whether or not you chose to believe.
This was always a huge stumbling block for me being taught that good people who haven't accept Jesus -go to Hell and bad people, if they accept Jesus will be in Heaven, so it mattered less how you live, but what you believed.
I remember once really being annoyed with a Christian friend who dug this kinda deep in meaning saying that ALL sins are the same, doesn't matter if you murder someone in cold blood or steal a candy bar from a Grocery store, we all deserve Hell. Now for me...that is total insanity and that makes God a Living Monster... so I went home and I studied this issue, I tried to find scriptures to support MY view that sins are NOT all the same, and I found them! Didn't matter, we didn't agree anyway! In 1 John, it speaks about sins that leads to death, and other sins that do not lead to death, so clearly some sins are worse than others.
Quote:
Trenton said : What of the man or woman who was never introduced to the teachings of God at all? Isn't it God's messengers (the people who believe) who fail here because the message didn't get out? Can they be expected to believe in something they were never taught?
At least according to the Bible.. it seems to say ALL have an awareness that there is a Creator God of the Universe, even if they have not heard the name of Jesus, and if we live by our conscience, it sounds that is what we will be judged on.
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Romans 1:19...since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse
and
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Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves
(Just to give you an answer from what the Bible seems to say on this issue).
I was in the musical GodSpell as a teen. It's the closest I ever got to teachings of God so I'm ignorant on the topic.
I like your summary SA.
SG I find that confusing. It's almost as if God is the scapegoat for the crimes of humanity.
I believe we should do better, work harder to be better people. No one is perfect but I hate to see this used as an excuse for not doing more. Seems too easy of a walk.
Location: On a clear day, I can see Mt. Rainier ... but you can't count on the days to be clear here ...
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Re: I just got thrown off of a forum...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trenton
SG I find that confusing. It's almost as if God is the scapegoat for the crimes of humanity.
Exactly right, and a perfect term. As a matter of fact, "scapegoat" is a term that comes from the old testament law, and was literally a goat. The new testament teaches that this is a role that God took on. He paid for our sins because we couldn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trenton
I believe we should do better, work harder to be better people. No one is perfect but I hate to see this used as an excuse for not doing more. Seems too easy of a walk.
This is the basis of the Christian walk or discipleship as it is called. It is something that comes after a person becomes a Christian. We should do better. Beginning to do better is called "repentence." This is the quick 2 paragraph explanation again.
The basic foundation of Christianity goes like this:
Nobody in history has ever been perfect. Since God is perfect, nobody has accomplished His standard - everybody has fallen short. People may be very good, but nobody is perfect.
God did not want to leave people hopeless, but since His standard is perfection, and nobody had met that, he took the punishment upon himself. That was the punishment for all the imperfection. (AKA Sin).
Nobody is good enough to make it to God on his own. But when God took the punishment upon himself. Now, He offers us the righteousness as in all the price has been paid, all punishment served, and we are no longer held accountable for it. It doesn't mean it never existed, but just that the sentence has been paid in full.
The faith that is spoken of is not so much a belief that God exists, but rather the faith to accept a free gift from God, and that gift is the freedom from paying for our imperfections (AKA Salvation).
That's the three paragraph version: Nobody is perfect, so God paid the price himself. The freedom from the sentence is available as a free gift to anyone who accepts it by faith. This is the "Good News" which is what "Gospel" and "Evangel" both mean.
Christianity is the only religion that requires a Blood sacrifice of a human being to get to Heaven... Some parents even took their kids to see "the Passion of the Christ" because that represented their "savior".... I guess I find this again, too gruesome and masochistic to handle.... Think about this now... what we are really being taught is .... God created us... but did not give us the ABILITY to love "good enough" ....(I see this as an insult to GOD)... then we are taught HE required us to slaughter his own son to save his own creation!
Don't get me wrong, I can also see the Love side of it... but it makes us humans feel so pathetically guilty, are we that depraved, wretched that blood has to be shed for our Creator to look upon us. I did not see this as "Good news" somehow.
I have grave issues with the Original Sin Doctrine too, I believe it was devised from ...St Augustine from his interpretation of Genesis & heavily leaning on Pauls's writings in the new Testament.....He won the debate over Pelagious Pelagius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... Because of this doctrine.... Catholics had to create "Limbo" so it would not seem so hellish if an infact died before Baptism -since otherwise they would go straight to Hell.
.....and the Trinity also. The council of Nicea in 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God (Bishop Alexander won over Arius)... the council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God," and " the council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God.... I think we all need a mountain of faith to believe MAN got all of this correct throughout the ages in all these councils & translations, etc.
Even the virgin birth has varying interpretations, other religions claim virgin births also, some cite the similarities with "Romulus and Remus", earlier mythology. Some say the Hebrew words Bethulah and 'Almah really mean "young Girl" where as we termed them "Virgin" in our translations. This is pretty much my view, which is very non-christian it resonates with my mind Serene Musings: The Origin of the Virgin Birth Stories
So these things are a severe issue for me and If I said I believed them all....I am in fact LYING and God would know it anyway! I guess I have just read too much history and where this stuff comes from. I remember reading about some of the Heretics of old and thinking "MY God, that is how I THINK!" there was a resonating with my being somehow -like i was coming into the truth, the big picture. But I know Christians will just say I don't understand. I did PRAY when I started on my quest to learn more of where the roots to these beliefs came from, that God would guide me, help me find the truth.....but I came to a different place.
It is amazing how the Jews interpret Genisis completely & utterly different than the Christians do..... so HOW do we really know??
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So many ways to interpret the Bible ...some examples....
Literal: The Fundamentalist view
Historical Document
Midrash: Jewish Rabbinical approach to interpretation sought to understand the literal, and then expand the teachings to contemporary issues. "light to heavy"
Pesher: Exegetical method that suggests the prophetic writings contain hidden eschatological significance, or divine mystery. Jesus used this method on several occasions. (Lk 4:16)
Allegorical: Assumes the text has a meaning other than what the literal wording says---- a parable is a short allegory with a Moral meaning. Allogories are often used in Literature.
Typological: seeks to discover a correspondence between people and events of the past and of the present or future. Matt. 12:40 - Jesus parallels the experience of Jonah with his own death. Moses was a type of Christ, who brought the people out of bondage, and was rejected by his own. Isaac when he was offered up by Abraham.
Christological: Firstly, Jesus, and then the writers of the New testament had a decidedly Christocentric approach to Bible interpretation. Old testament passages were viewed in light of the new knowledge they now had about the person and work of the Messiah.
Functional: Fitting scripture into current day context, disregarding the historical context.
I am not trying to be disrespectful in any way by putting all of this on here, it is just another side to these beliefs..
For me..... it matters not what anyone believes...if thier belief makes/helps/uplifts them to be that better person/that good example to mankind & more helpful to society as a whole in this crazy selfish world, then I say .... "Live and let be", cause I think we all have MORE in common than NOT in common if we can just look beyond our "Creeds".
I can not prove I am right in any of this obviously, these are just peices of history....but I have more "peace" with this --than when I was taught all the answers and it warred against my mind & intellect.
I hope I at least make sense, if nothing else. Even my son can understand exactly where I am coming from, even though he does not agree with me. He told me he has great respect for Deists generally, I guess they even hired one at his Camp last year, he loved the guy! He doesn't judge me. He may pray for me though.
Exactly right, and a perfect term. As a matter of fact, "scapegoat" is a term that comes from the old testament law, and was literally a goat. The new testament teaches that this is a role that God took on. He paid for our sins because we couldn't.
This is the basis of the Christian walk or discipleship as it is called. It is something that comes after a person becomes a Christian. We should do better. Beginning to do better is called "repentence." This is the quick 2 paragraph explanation again.
If we strip away the fancy words is this not what should come to us naturally?
I remember once really being annoyed with a Christian friend who dug this kinda deep in meaning saying that ALL sins are the same, doesn't matter if you murder someone in cold blood or steal a candy bar from a Grocery store, we all deserve Hell. Now for me...that is total insanity and that makes God a Living Monster... so I went home and I studied this issue
And People actually worship this kind of God, SimplyA.
Makes you think huh?. . .about what kind of God some people worship.
__________________
And maybe I seem a bit confused. . .but maybe, I got you pegged! Ha! Don't know what to do about those tossed salad and scrambled eggs. . .they're posting again. Scannerguard has left the building.
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Re: I just got thrown off of a forum... 
