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Old 02-12-2012, 05:11 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: I just got thrown off of a forum...

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BTW, I just mixed it up with a Catholic Bishop online (at least he said he was) on this Obama/Birth control issue. . .so. . .you ain't seen nothing, lol.

He suggested instead of paying for birth control, that women should keep their legs closed.

I asked why Catholic women can't keep their legs closed then?

Yessiree. . .my good Catholic Mom is saying a Hail Mary for me tonight. . .
Oh you were having fun ! We have some catholic channel , sometimes clicking you'll see the Nuns reciting this, they look so terribly bored out of their minds, God can not possibly get any joy out of man /or woman repeating these repititious sayings , can't wrap my head around that either, I think he would take more delight in us doing something useful and at least looking enthusiastic about it.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:37 PM   #62 (permalink)
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That is an example of finding God out of desperation, in a search for some type of comfort for the hardships we face. That's what I was talking about when I said that it's very human of us to want to believe in God and to have created him with the teaching that he created us.

If it was not being taught, just like if other religions were not being taught, we'd be forced to find strength and comfort within ourselves and from one another. The ultimate in responsibility.

I know many think the world would go to hell quickly, but I think that's a last ditch attempt to try to find logic in something innately illogical on so very many levels.

I'm sure you know that I live my life by a very strong set of ideals and values and try very hard to not be hypocritical and if I am found to be hypocritical to try and correct it. This, for me, comes from within. I don't need a book or God to tell me that working very hard to help others and help myself is the right thing to do. I don't need it to tell me that faithfulness in marriage is important or anything in excess is dangerous. I just know.

I also know that belief in God will not exempt one from being a really f'd up person who does a lot of selfish, sometimes hurtful to others, things that go against everything the God they believe in tells them not to do.

I always wonder. Does humanity need a parent that badly? Can we never actually take responsibility and grow up and recognize right from wrong without having to have an entire community tell us this?

It's almost as if our selfishism keeps us from accepting that each and every one of us is connected...The faithful and the faithless.
Trenton, you know I think just like you !! Absolutely in everything you have said here . So even though me & you came from different backgrounds, we are in the same place in these thoughts...

I've told my son a # of times.....right now he is connected with Umteen friends, he has a community of believers, he lives with christians, even his JOB is at a christian camp for goodness sakes.. this IS connection -it holds him up even ,encourages him in his faith. This is why he is happy & Joyful.

I tried to explain to him one day... EXample... take a man who has GOD, has belief, has his Holy bible to read every day ...but doesn't have any friends, for whatever reason , he is alone -little connection, no church, no community ... (which this generally isn't the scenerio mind you-it is that sweet fellowship that IS the connection )

...then compare that with another man who has a family, but they are agnostics, don't go to church, just living and enjoying the life that has been given them, caring for each other, friends visit, co-workers enjoy him, HE has abundant CONNECTION with others in his life..

........ now who is going to have more Joy, more happiness, in life ... the man who has nobody - but has belief .... or the agnostic man who has a fuller life with loving people surrounding him everyday?

The only argument that the believer is better off is a supernatural one -it is about the Afterlife -his going to heaven, while the agnostic will be rejected, deemed to hell.

Is that enough for us to believe ? then that gets into the whole Pascal's Wager....

Pascal's Wager
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:34 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Is that enough for us to believe ? then that gets into the whole Pascal's Wager....

Pascal's Wager
The argument is so weak.

1. What of the man or woman who was never introduced to the teachings of God at all? Isn't it God's messengers (the people who believe) who fail here because the message didn't get out? Can they be expected to believe in something they were never taught?

2. Let's take me for example for number two. I've devoted my life to being someone who helps children. It's my passion and it's where I dedicate my energy. I don't steal and I'm not dishonest (OK sometimes with little things but I struggle even with that). I would never hurt anyone deliberately (although I have hurt some in my past out of being selfish and made amends feeling honestly sorry about it). I try very hard to be a good wife, mother, friend and person. I believe in and would try to help all people, all the time without reservation.

Will this God reject me simply because I say that I don't know if he exists? If so would I want to be in a heaven with him anyway?

So my answer is that I would not want to be in a heaven where the only pre-requisite for getting in is not whether or not you were a good person but simply whether or not you chose to believe.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:45 PM   #64 (permalink)
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SA and Trenton, I have been off for a while. I am working in the Bay Area this week, so I got to spend the evening with my younger daughter and my future son-in-law. We had a great evening.

Trenton, I know there is no way to make the critical point in my thinking that I keep referring to have meaning to you, but I will say that I am a logically minded person. I will acknowledge that there is no way to put God under a microscope, nor is there any way for atheists or scientists to disprove Him. It consumed my mental energy for months. When I say it was sex that began to bring me back to faith, what was going on in my mind was around DNA being a 4 letter alphabet that was used to write instructions for life as well as the family history. That was something in the back of my mind. The moment came when I was walking on the beach and saw someone's initials scratched in the sand with a plus sign inside a heart - you've seen things like this I'm sure. It occurred to me that I couldn't prove that someone had done this, but I saw it as evidence that intelligence had visited that place, and this was the evidence I had. My mind exploded with this thought into the DNA question again, then into areas of sexual reproduction first, then how it would be necessary to have a parallel evolution in order for that to have formed because it could only happen if both the male and female fit physically, carried the right genetic material, and the right delivery mechanism. Then, physical isn't enough, but there has to be the effects of the pheromones, proper reaction to pheromones, and that has to be perfectly coordinated. Hormones have to produce drive at the right time to allow for fertilization. There must be enough pleasure involved in it to make it desirable. Then we can look into family.

This was only the beginning. My mind was about as busy in the next 6 months putting it all together as it had been in the previous (can't remember for sure how many ... more than 11, though).

I wish I could write the whole thing down, but without context, it will never mean anything. I'm not sure it will ever carry the same meaning to someone else as it did for me. However; it became very logical, and the evidence behind it was the intelligence just like the intelligence I could see behind the little love symbol on the beach.

Some people may not have to go through as long and hard a process, but I wouldn't count on it. The point is, though, it's not as simple as someone needing a parent, or needing help in crisis. Sometimes it is quite logical, but perhaps in an area different than what you are looking. Don't just discount the logic behind it in many who have spent the toil to work it out. How did I work it out? Was it inspiration? I'll leave that one for you to answer.

That was just to get back to where I could see a creator again. From there to finding Christian faith again is another story ... and it also isn't as simple as needing a parent or being in crisis. It was part of the same process, though.

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Old 02-12-2012, 10:07 PM   #65 (permalink)
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SA, I will look at the thread, but I am going to have to focus on work. The weekend is ending for me. I'm not sure how much time I will have to respond there. I will if I can.

I will say here that I think I see some errors in logic in the personal evidence you are drawing from your own experience. It seems that you got beyond what should have been inhibitions prior to marriage, but that didn't stop the repression in marriage.

Once again, I don't think it's as simple as "If parents do X, then kids will respond by doing Y." That means that when a kid rebels, it is not necessarily a result of the parent being too strict, or too lax, or too anything. More than anything, it is a result of the kid having a free choice, and exercising that. Parents do the best they can, but there are no guaranteed results. We're not mechanical.

We've focused so much on sex, though, that I think in our discussions we are losing the balance of how marriage as a whole was taught in my case, and in the case of my wife. This is where the hazard of our super short courtship comes in more than in the sexual area in my opinion. Let me put this in balance from where I see it, please.

First, my wife was raised in a Buddhist household. Sex was not discussed in her household, and she got minimal education, and then, it was just in time. She told me that when she started her first period she cried because she thought something was seriously wrong with her. Her mother and sisters laughed at her for crying,then explained to her what was happening. Her sex education was likewise minimal. Her mother began telling her about sex in marriage when she came to visit us before our wedding, and continued as we were married. It's nice to have a mother in law who is willing to help like that . My wife converted to Christianity shortly before she met me.

My mother taught me that God invented sex, and He thought it was a good idea or He wouldn't have invented it. She told me it was for full expression in marriage. For me, sex was a reason to look forward to marriage.

However; my mother taught me that there is more to marriage than sex. She taught me to respect women, and my dad reinforced that by living it in front of us. My dad worked very hard, so mom was the one that was with us most of the time during teaching times. But dad always reinforced what she taught, and he showed it by example. I have many fond examples of my dad's behavior in other areas as well. I don't know if he knew I was watching, but he always behaved like he expected me to be watching and learning.

My mom also taught me that marriage was about love, friendship, companionship, partnership, and building a family. These were always things I wanted, so marriage was never something I was afraid of. I was, in fact, foolishly bold, but it worked out. The short courtship we had did not really give me time to know if I could have all of these things with my wife, but I beleived I could, and it worked out for me. When I say I wouldn't recommend a courtship like ours, I mean I would want the couple to have a chance to begin developing some of these things.

Now, truth is, I trust my wife 100%. She is my best friend. She is my buddy and my companion. For partnership, she is very capable in the tasks she takes on in our division of labor, and she partners with me to guard our health, morality, etc. We have a beautiful family together (3 kids: 2 homemade, and 1 adopted). She is a wonderful mother. And she is a fantastic sex partner. Sure, we've had our rough patches, but all in all, my marriage is exactly what my mother taught me it should be, and it was my mother's teaching that made me aware that I needed to develop those things. I saw in my dad that a man could do that, and I saw in the two of them together what I wanted in a marriage and family. Our family is different, but it has developed the same things. My mother nailed it. It was my choice whether or not to listen, but I'm glad I did.

(Maybe I should say, in the spirit of being honest, that my wife was not my first girlfriend. However; the first was bad news. I'm glad now that my mom and my dad both recognized it and talked to me about that. It made me angry at the time that they didn't like her, but when I thought about it, I saw their point. Fortunately, that girlfriend took herself out of the picture with her actions before I actually rebelled ... don't know if I would have actually rebelled, but it is the closest I ever came to it. Afterwards, I did see that mom and dad were absolutely right about her.)

Absolutely, sex is an important part of marriage. I understand there were problems for you in the past, and I am sorry that happened. My experience was very different even though I was taught abstinence until marriage. I was taught about this in a very positive way, though. I would say that although sex is important in marriage, it wouldn't mean much if I didn't have the friendship, companionship, partnership, and love from my wife. Now, we also have family, and many pleasant memories that we can share ... getting old together and sharing memories was another thing I always thought would be pleasant about marriage.

You know what? Nights on the road when I start writing about her, I really miss her. I'll be back to her on Friday night ... Fortunately, I don't have to travel much anymore. I have a great wife ...


EDIT: I know this is long, but let me add one of my dad's examples. This is one of my favorite stories. When I was growing up, mom and dad always taught us to not be greedy. We weren't to rush in and grab food before everyone else, but take our turns. And we were told it was greedy to always grab the biggest piece of cake or biggest of anything.

One time when I was about 6 or 7, dad said he would split a coke with me since we only had one bottle of it in the house. He got two glasses and poured back and forth trying to fill them evenly, but he didn't let the foam settle all the way before moving from one to the other. When he finished pouring, one of the glasses had a little more than the other. It wasn't much, but it was noticeable. I wanted the glass with more coke, naturally, but I remembered what they always taught me. Since I wanted one, but knew what I was taught, I hesitated to reach for either one of them. Dad, without hesitation, reached out and took the glass with less coke in it.

I've never forgotten that little scene. Dad always lived what he told us, even if he didn't realize I was watching, or why I was watching. I've never forgotten his example.

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Old 02-12-2012, 10:55 PM   #66 (permalink)
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shy_guy let's say one naturally lives by the terms set out in the bible. My overall question is why does one have to believe in God in order to be accepted by him. If he knows what's inside our hearts then how come a kind and good heart is not enough?

That is the part that gets me. It is parental and it is illogical.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:08 PM   #67 (permalink)
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shy_guy let's say one naturally lives by the terms set out in the bible. My overall question is why does one have to believe in God in order to be accepted by him. If he knows what's inside our hearts then how come a kind and good heart is not enough?

That is the part that gets me. It is parental and it is illogical.
The basic foundation of Christianity goes like this:

Nobody in history has ever been perfect. Since God is perfect, nobody has accomplished His standard - everybody has fallen short. People may be very good, but nobody is perfect.

God did not want to leave people hopeless, but since His standard is perfection, and nobody had met that, he took the punishment upon himself. That was the punishment for all the imperfection. (AKA Sin).

Nobody is good enough to make it to God on his own. But when God took the punishment upon himself. Now, He offers us the righteousness as in all the price has been paid, all punishment served, and we are no longer held accountable for it. It doesn't mean it never existed, but just that the sentence has been paid in full.

The faith that is spoken of is not so much a belief that God exists, but rather the faith to accept a free gift from God, and that gift is the freedom from paying for our imperfections (AKA Salvation).

That's the three paragraph version: Nobody is perfect, so God paid the price himself. The freedom from the sentence is available as a free gift to anyone who accepts it by faith. This is the "Good News" which is what "Gospel" and "Evangel" both mean.

EDIT: There is a passage in the Bible that talks about the person who has never heard, and nature being a law. Can you allow me to go into that answer on another day? I'm running out of time tonight .
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:12 PM   #68 (permalink)
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So my answer is that I would not want to be in a heaven where the only pre-requisite for getting in is not whether or not you were a good person but simply whether or not you chose to believe.
This was always a huge stumbling block for me being taught that good people who haven't accept Jesus -go to Hell and bad people, if they accept Jesus will be in Heaven, so it mattered less how you live, but what you believed.

I remember once really being annoyed with a Christian friend who dug this kinda deep in meaning saying that ALL sins are the same, doesn't matter if you murder someone in cold blood or steal a candy bar from a Grocery store, we all deserve Hell. Now for me...that is total insanity and that makes God a Living Monster... so I went home and I studied this issue, I tried to find scriptures to support MY view that sins are NOT all the same, and I found them! Didn't matter, we didn't agree anyway! In 1 John, it speaks about sins that leads to death, and other sins that do not lead to death, so clearly some sins are worse than others.


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Trenton said : What of the man or woman who was never introduced to the teachings of God at all? Isn't it God's messengers (the people who believe) who fail here because the message didn't get out? Can they be expected to believe in something they were never taught?
At least according to the Bible.. it seems to say ALL have an awareness that there is a Creator God of the Universe, even if they have not heard the name of Jesus, and if we live by our conscience, it sounds that is what we will be judged on.
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Romans 1:19...since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse
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Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves
(Just to give you an answer from what the Bible seems to say on this issue).
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:41 PM   #69 (permalink)
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SG I find that confusing. It's almost as if God is the scapegoat for the crimes of humanity.
Exactly right, and a perfect term. As a matter of fact, "scapegoat" is a term that comes from the old testament law, and was literally a goat. The new testament teaches that this is a role that God took on. He paid for our sins because we couldn't.

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I believe we should do better, work harder to be better people. No one is perfect but I hate to see this used as an excuse for not doing more. Seems too easy of a walk.
This is the basis of the Christian walk or discipleship as it is called. It is something that comes after a person becomes a Christian. We should do better. Beginning to do better is called "repentence." This is the quick 2 paragraph explanation again.
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:27 AM   #70 (permalink)
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The basic foundation of Christianity goes like this:

Nobody in history has ever been perfect. Since God is perfect, nobody has accomplished His standard - everybody has fallen short. People may be very good, but nobody is perfect.

God did not want to leave people hopeless, but since His standard is perfection, and nobody had met that, he took the punishment upon himself. That was the punishment for all the imperfection. (AKA Sin).

Nobody is good enough to make it to God on his own. But when God took the punishment upon himself. Now, He offers us the righteousness as in all the price has been paid, all punishment served, and we are no longer held accountable for it. It doesn't mean it never existed, but just that the sentence has been paid in full.

The faith that is spoken of is not so much a belief that God exists, but rather the faith to accept a free gift from God, and that gift is the freedom from paying for our imperfections (AKA Salvation).

That's the three paragraph version: Nobody is perfect, so God paid the price himself. The freedom from the sentence is available as a free gift to anyone who accepts it by faith. This is the "Good News" which is what "Gospel" and "Evangel" both mean.
Christianity is the only religion that requires a Blood sacrifice of a human being to get to Heaven... Some parents even took their kids to see "the Passion of the Christ" because that represented their "savior".... I guess I find this again, too gruesome and masochistic to handle.... Think about this now... what we are really being taught is .... God created us... but did not give us the ABILITY to love "good enough" ....(I see this as an insult to GOD)... then we are taught HE required us to slaughter his own son to save his own creation!

Don't get me wrong, I can also see the Love side of it... but it makes us humans feel so pathetically guilty, are we that depraved, wretched that blood has to be shed for our Creator to look upon us. I did not see this as "Good news" somehow.


I have grave issues with the Original Sin Doctrine too, I believe it was devised from ...St Augustine from his interpretation of Genesis & heavily leaning on Pauls's writings in the new Testament.....He won the debate over Pelagious Pelagius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... Because of this doctrine.... Catholics had to create "Limbo" so it would not seem so hellish if an infact died before Baptism -since otherwise they would go straight to Hell.

.....and the Trinity also. The council of Nicea in 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God (Bishop Alexander won over Arius)... the council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God," and " the council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God.... I think we all need a mountain of faith to believe MAN got all of this correct throughout the ages in all these councils & translations, etc.

Even the virgin birth has varying interpretations, other religions claim virgin births also, some cite the similarities with "Romulus and Remus", earlier mythology. Some say the Hebrew words Bethulah and 'Almah really mean "young Girl" where as we termed them "Virgin" in our translations. This is pretty much my view, which is very non-christian it resonates with my mind Serene Musings: The Origin of the Virgin Birth Stories

So these things are a severe issue for me and If I said I believed them all....I am in fact LYING and God would know it anyway! I guess I have just read too much history and where this stuff comes from. I remember reading about some of the Heretics of old and thinking "MY God, that is how I THINK!" there was a resonating with my being somehow -like i was coming into the truth, the big picture. But I know Christians will just say I don't understand. I did PRAY when I started on my quest to learn more of where the roots to these beliefs came from, that God would guide me, help me find the truth.....but I came to a different place.



I read a book by Harold Kushner (Jewish author of "When bad things happen to good people" )....now his interpretation of God and sin I CAN accept but not the Christian view. Amazon.com: How Good Do We Have to Be? A New Understanding of Guilt and Forgiveness (9780316519335): Harold Kushner: Books

It is amazing how the Jews interpret Genisis completely & utterly different than the Christians do..... so HOW do we really know??


Quote:
So many ways to interpret the Bible ...some examples....


Literal: The Fundamentalist view

Historical Document

Midrash: Jewish Rabbinical approach to interpretation sought to understand the literal, and then expand the teachings to contemporary issues. "light to heavy"

Pesher: Exegetical method that suggests the prophetic writings contain hidden eschatological significance, or divine mystery. Jesus used this method on several occasions. (Lk 4:16)

Allegorical: Assumes the text has a meaning other than what the literal wording says---- a parable is a short allegory with a Moral meaning. Allogories are often used in Literature.

Typological: seeks to discover a correspondence between people and events of the past and of the present or future. Matt. 12:40 - Jesus parallels the experience of Jonah with his own death. Moses was a type of Christ, who brought the people out of bondage, and was rejected by his own. Isaac when he was offered up by Abraham.

Christological: Firstly, Jesus, and then the writers of the New testament had a decidedly Christocentric approach to Bible interpretation. Old testament passages were viewed in light of the new knowledge they now had about the person and work of the Messiah.

Functional: Fitting scripture into current day context, disregarding the historical context.
I am not trying to be disrespectful in any way by putting all of this on here, it is just another side to these beliefs..

For me..... it matters not what anyone believes...if thier belief makes/helps/uplifts them to be that better person/that good example to mankind & more helpful to society as a whole in this crazy selfish world, then I say .... "Live and let be", cause I think we all have MORE in common than NOT in common if we can just look beyond our "Creeds".

I can not prove I am right in any of this obviously, these are just peices of history....but I have more "peace" with this --than when I was taught all the answers and it warred against my mind & intellect.

I hope I at least make sense, if nothing else. Even my son can understand exactly where I am coming from, even though he does not agree with me. He told me he has great respect for Deists generally, I guess they even hired one at his Camp last year, he loved the guy! He doesn't judge me. He may pray for me though.
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:21 AM   #71 (permalink)
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I remember once really being annoyed with a Christian friend who dug this kinda deep in meaning saying that ALL sins are the same, doesn't matter if you murder someone in cold blood or steal a candy bar from a Grocery store, we all deserve Hell. Now for me...that is total insanity and that makes God a Living Monster... so I went home and I studied this issue
And People actually worship this kind of God, SimplyA.

Makes you think huh?. . .about what kind of God some people worship.
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:29 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Interesting thread.

I need to check out that website. I wonder what their advice would be to me if I go on there and tell them about my marital troubles with my Christian wife and her mother (the Minister). I wouldn't be so honest to tell them that I have left christianity over it. I would really like to hear what they have to say, but it would really serve no purpose because I know what they would say - that my wife and her mother are NOT christians. No s**t, I already know that (or maybe they are what christianity really stands for - I'm not bitter ).

It would be easy for them to throw someone under the bus that they have never met, but what makes me disgusted with the whole thing is how some of the christians in our life have reacted to everything that has gone on. Yes there are a few who are disgusted with my wife, but just as many if not more who fully support (enable) my wife even though she is acting in ways completely outside how a christian should act. What about being our brother's keeper? I'm just disgusted with the whole religion because there is ZERO consistency in it and when most christians are faced with a decision to make about what is right or wrong it seems that they seldom follow what they are taught in the bible. Well then what's the point of going through the motions? If the path you follow leads you to this then what point is there in following the path? Time to seek a different path.

Simplyamorous, I allow my kids to go to youth group also even though I no longer consider myself a christian, so I know where you are coming from. Although the youth group at our old church really has nothing to do with the bible or the Abrahamic god so I don't really have to worry about them becoming an evangelical bible thumper going there, it's pretty much a godless social club. I could tell you guys stories about that place and the people who go there. Sad really.

And the disagreement up thread about Christianity and Islam being the only evangelical religions, I have to agree. They are extremely evangelical. Name another religion that is so aggressive or feels it has some kind of a mandate to convert people, sometimes with violence. Of the two I would actually consider Christianity to be the least tolerant of other religions. Why? Well Islam considers Jesus to be a prophet of god and Muslims have a great deal of respect for him. They don't, however, believe he is the son of god. Christians, on the other hand, ridicule Mohammed and claim he is a false prophet and even "of the devil" and make fun of and ridicule Allah. Don't they even know that Allah and the Christian god and the same? They worship the same god as the Muslims and the Jews. Most Christians will not accept this.

Personally I don't think Christianity was ever meant to be. Assuming Jesus was a real person, I think he was trying to teach Jews to be better people (not saying that they were bad), not create a new religion. I read a lot about religions. Right now I'm starting to explore Buddhism (although it isn't really a religion) and have read some interesting things about Jesus. A lot of Buddhist believe that Jesus was a Buddhist. Supposedly he left Israel when he was about 13 and traveled to northern India where he traveled around until he eventually began studying Buddhism at a monastery near the Indian-Tibetan border. When he was about 29 he left and went back to Israel an began teaching a different way, and he wasn't well received. After his crucifixion he was nursed back to health an eventually traveled back to Kashmir where he lived until he was over 80 years old. In that area in northern India where this took place it is generally accepted as fact. There is even a shrine there that is supposed to be the burial place of Jesus. Very interesting. Some of his teachings are very Buddhist like.

And the statement above about Christians being the victims of oppression, Christians haven't been the victims of oppression since the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity around 312 CE. That's when it all changed and Christianity became the aggressor, so I wish they would stop always talking about Christians being persecuted and fed to the lions. They have done a lot worse since then.

Last edited by Mike188; 02-15-2012 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:14 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Default Re: I just got thrown off of a forum...

Oh, SA! I sometimes go out to themarriagebed.com forum and read through the posts. I haven't been out there for a month or so, so I must have missed all of the fireworks!

I haven't had time to read through all of the posts in this thread, but generally what always strikes me about religion discussion and Christians is that *religion* is made up of *people* who are imperfect - they sin, they are hyprocrits just as much as they may love or be giving. *Religion* is a man-made framework that has been put around something that is much grander, something that is not really containable.

I try and keep it in perspective, in that while I may NOT agree with the *religion*, I do agree with the grand, uncontainable, almost incomprehensible thing that it is trying to frame. It's kind of like that saying "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" - well don't throw away believing in God because of all of the 'clutter' and 'hypocrisy' that PEOPLE bring to it.

Oh - and good job on getting tossed. Seriously, I mean it. I think some of the people on that forum need to get shaken up a bit.
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:15 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Default Re: I just got thrown off of a forum...

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Oh, SA! I sometimes go out to themarriagebed.com forum and read through the posts. I haven't been out there for a month or so, so I must have missed all of the fireworks!
Well the fireworks only lasted 2 hours and I was groveling for them to tell me how to delete my own thread, trying to be kind enough to not bother their holiness anymore. I shouldn' let others of faith reduce me to that, but It was like entering a lion's den, I went there feeling I might be treated with some respect... the joke was on me. But to their credit , it does say in their forum rules if you are not a christian, that you need to get approved to post, so by being so upfront, I MADE myself a target immediately. It still would be nice if people took the time to ask a few questions, try to gauge the situation before they JUMP.

Quote:
I haven't had time to read through all of the posts in this thread, but generally what always strikes me about religion discussion and Christians is that *religion* is made up of *people* who are imperfect - they sin, they are hyprocrits just as much as they may love or be giving.
I doubt they would even say they are perfect or righteous, no... it is more the willingness to say "Look I am slime and blood had to be shed for me"- if they can't get that out of you, you can't be in the club! You simply must admit you are wretched, unworthy & deserving of hell....then "you're good!"

But I guess any club is similar, isn't it...you gotta THINK like them...if you don't you better shut your mouth! I believe such rules is why most people just hide who they really are anyway... just to "belong", to feel accepted. I don't feel being accepted is worth a hill of beans if you are not really demonstrating who you are, there is no reward in that...for me. I'd rather be canned, told off even.

Quote:
*Religion* is a man-made framework that has been put around something that is much grander, something that is not really containable.
I love this, a good way to explain it......God is not containable.

Quote:

I try and keep it in perspective, in that while I may NOT agree with the *religion*, I do agree with the grand, uncontainable, almost incomprehensible thing that it is trying to frame. It's kind of like that saying "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" - well don't throw away believing in God because of all of the 'clutter' and 'hypocrisy' that PEOPLE bring to it.
I do believe in God, as many people do ....It seems anytime I raise my voice to my disagreements with "the fundamental faith" of Christianity, others feel I lost it over hypocrites...not the case. I know more who are wonderful than any that has hurt me personally. It is over theology , over doctrines, over creeds....not people. I see Good people in every walk of life, the fact I do that --is more of the issue FOR THEM -against me ! Kinda rediculous when you think about it.

Quote:
Oh - and good job on getting tossed. Seriously, I mean it. I think some of the people on that forum need to get shaken up a bit.
I kinda wonder why YOU say this Enchantment, do you also find the atmosphere "too much" ? I seriously doubt I shook anyone up over there, as it goes many times, they felt "justified" in their replies.
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:56 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Default Re: I just got thrown off of a forum...

SimplyA,

You are taking this kind of hard.

I usually think, "I've been thrown out of better places."

What about the whole thing is bothering you?

No one can hardly be surprised a bunch of holier-than-thou Christians don't want to listen to reasoning or another point of view.

They can't handle it.

I once had lunch with a very nice pastor. We got on parts of the Bible I disagreed with. I told him I had a problem with Genesis, that if there are stars that a million lightyears away, by definition, the universe has to be AT LEAST a million years old.

(this doesn't even get into the idea that if God is making it seem like it's a million light years away. . .then why would God be an illusionist with our universe - an interesting philosophical question. . .)

It took a million years for that twinkle of light to reach our eyes.

Well, I could see the whole idea left the poor man uncomfortable and gee, I hate to do that.

Isn't better to just let these people just bask in their "small world."?
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