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Old 03-29-2012, 02:51 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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Originally Posted by Angel5112 View Post
It would actually be more beneficial for us, financially at least, if we did legalize them. It would inject 12 million tax paying citizens into the economy. Imagine what that could do for our country.
48% of US citizens pay no income tax anyway. Nothing would change. We should enforce our boarders and that would help with the drug running problem too.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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I find the argument odd that people that have insurance are paying for those who do not. Well then if everybody is being taken care of then why do we have to change anything?
Because the way it works today is not efficient.

We encourage last minute Emergency procudures when it would be much cheaper to focus on preventative care.

Little Johnny only gets to go to the doctor in cases of emergency.

CrazyGuy - my Dad was self-employed. He basically crunched the numbers like you did - and decided it was worth HIS risk to NOT pay $6,000 per year and just pray nothing went wrong! My insurance growing up was "be careful and don't get sick." Fortunately - I had a pretty good childhood!

Had my Dad - a heavy smoker - ever suffered a heart-attack and required bypass surgery - they would have done the procedure but we could never have afforded it.

Plus - at any given time right now - there are about 4-5% of the population who are good, decent people, but can't find a job with reasonable benefits. When people lose their benefits - they can sometimes no longer afford their medications - which leads us back to the ER.

Of course the unemployment rate is around 9% - but I'll assume that there is portion of the population (3-5%?) who are truly just unemployable.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:02 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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I find the argument odd that people that have insurance are paying for those who do not. Well then if everybody is being taken care of then why do we have to change anything? It is also making an assumption that if I do not have insurance that I am not responsible and paying my own bills.
Because those of us with insurance are paying for those without and it's getting ridiculously high? Can you explain why health insurance rates continue to rise at an insane rate year after year? And I'm not talking self payors. But this is only part of problem with health care costs.

I've often thought about what you mentioned, saving that money that goes to my premiums and using it to pay outright any medical situation that might come up. BUT then I think about a $160,000 bill for just me when my children were born. What would we/I do? Or when my kids were in ICU, 20K and 18K. Perhaps that's a part of the reason you chose to get health insurance eventually again.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:06 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

I have insurance through my work.

My surgery was $50,000.

2 hour surgery. Seems a bit....extreme.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:06 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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48% of US citizens pay no income tax anyway. Nothing would change. We should enforce our boarders and that would help with the drug running problem too.
Curious about your 48% number...

Even so - those citizens pay sales tax and excise taxes. As do people who are here illegally.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:10 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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Because the way it works today is not efficient.

We encourage last minute Emergency procudures when it would be much cheaper to focus on preventative care.

Little Johnny only gets to go to the doctor in cases of emergency.

CrazyGuy - my Dad was self-employed. He basically crunched the numbers like you did - and decided it was worth HIS risk to NOT pay $6,000 per year and just pray nothing went wrong! My insurance growing up was "be careful and don't get sick." Fortunately - I had a pretty good childhood!

Had my Dad - a heavy smoker - ever suffered a heart-attack and required bypass surgery - they would have done the procedure but we could never have afforded it.

Plus - at any given time right now - there are about 4-5% of the population who are good, decent people, but can't find a job with reasonable benefits. When people lose their benefits - they can sometimes no longer afford their medications - which leads us back to the ER...
Yeah I understand what you are saying. I lost my job recently. It took me 4 months to find another one. Thank God I had my own insurance and not thru the company I worked for.

Look at the ER now. Filled with emergencies of the common cold and very long wait times. How much worse do you think it will get when everybody thinks they have some sort of "free" health care? Just show up at the ER and get taken care of.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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Curious about your 48% number...

Even so - those citizens pay sales tax and excise taxes. As do people who are here illegally.
Different experts give different %'S. I have seen from 46 to 52% quoted. I pulled 48% out of the air. On top of that they actually can get money back from the IRS. I have no idea how that deal works though myself.

Why Do Some People Pay No Federal Income Tax? - Forbes
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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But doesn't the UK have companies that offer a rider policy that
you can buy which would cover the extra procedures?

I would think that most people would buy a rider policy if it was affordable.
Yes, which puts everyone back where they started, buying insurance on their own to cover what the NHS doesn't or doesn't do well. Another instance from the NHS is that certain types of procedures take forever to schedule. Laser reattachment of the retina for one. Waiting can take more than a year. So you could be blind or half blind for a year or more waiting.

This is not to say that socialist care doesn't work. It does. In fact it works particularly well in Israel where health care incurs zero or near zero out of pocket and covers just about everything for everyone. Be prepared to pay breathtaking taxes though.

Moreover the health care system in France is not only efficient it's quite good and covers people with fewer mistakes and less error than the US. Again though, quite expensive from a tax perspective if not from an overall cost of providing care perspective.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:27 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

Check your out of pocket calculations. Often they are measured against the Insurance companies blind number for what they want to pay. So if your health insurance thinks that CAT scans should cost $500 then your out of pocket maximum is gauged against that number not your actual cost. This way you could easily wind up paying multiples of your out of pocket maximum and never reach it. Insurance companies don't have to use current or even realistic information when estimating their own reasonable and customary charges. They can use whatever data they like or simply make it up.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:29 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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Originally Posted by *Dean* View Post
What's up above isn't completely true.

Medicaid is State based Health care that is 100% paid for by
the State. It's true they don't pay well, sometimes not at
all. Lots of Doctors and Surgeons stopped taking on new
patients since a lot of states don't pay. Texas is a bad state
for doing this.

Medicare is Health insurance from the USA government.
Most Doctors and Surgeons would go out of business if they stopped taking these patients.
There is always exceptions to everything and you do have some hard core doctors that are
trying to make a point and lean hard right and are not taking new patients.

The Surgeons I play golf with tell me that it's Medicare that is holding down the price of Health care.
That they set the market price. The insurance companies normally pay the surgeons a little more.

Most people who become a doctor or surgeon do it to help people, not to become wealthy.
In the end, I think you are right and the doctors will have to keep medicare patients just to keep the practice going, but consider some quotes made after the health care discussion:

After the legislators approved the $500 billion in medicare cuts (which was mostly money owed), half of doctors in multiple states, like Texas, Georgia and others, indicated that they will stop taking medicare patients when the health care law is fully implemented. A third of primary care doctors polled said they will either change fields or retire early.

I don't play golf, but I attend an investing club that involves mostly doctors. Personally, I'm hearing the same types of comments regarding cutting off patients. The friends that I talk to mostly are a rheumatologist and an internist. Both have already stopped taking new referalls for medicare patients.

Medicare drives down the fees that they can charge for procedures. Their period costs still go up, though. What is happening is that they are losing money on medicare patients.

NPR did a piece on the impact of the $500 billion "Cut". I believe that it was rate increases that were technically due for some time period, and legislators just chose to cancel them and call it "savings". They interviewed hospitals that were reeling from unpaid medicare balances as a result.

Last edited by Halien; 03-29-2012 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:38 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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Runs....You know how other countries do it. Take care of their people.
How would you change the US system?
Tough call. For one thing I would implement limits on elective procedures. I would not cover elective cosmetic surgery unless it was related to injury or other surgery. I would not necessarily cover old people who wanted knee replacements unless they were no longer mobile. I would implement lifestyle surcharges so that the 2/3 of Americans who are obese bear more of the burden of their own healthcare. I would create one sole singular electronic patient records system nationally.

Then I would put price caps in place for drugs and for most medical and surgical procedures without exception.

I would legalize all directed organ donation and I would create a system whereby people could in fact buy contract an organ on their own. For profit if need be.

I would create different facilities for chronic care cases outside of the hospital system - more clinically and hospice driven, one which doesn't require as many MD's.

I would induce schools to churn out more N.P's and P.A's and far fewer MD's. I have not seen a PCP MD in 15 years, there's no need.

And Malpractice is a red herring. At most the insurance accounts for about 7% of gross billings. Stop paying attention to it it's a fake issue.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:46 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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I have insurance through my work.

My surgery was $50,000.

2 hour surgery. Seems a bit....extreme.
That is part of the scam I mentioned before. No doubt your bill was $50,000. But I bet that is not what the insurance company paid out. $50,000 is a fake value. The insurance company has a deal with the hospital to satisfy that bill for much less.

As far as high insurance rates high because of people that do not pay, that's BS. The insurance companies do not pay for uninsured people. The hospitals are the ones that eat the cost. And like I said before it is a big number game. When I paid cash the same procedures cost one forth of what I was originally told. At the time they thought I was insured because I was on file from the past, but I dropped coverage. Told them I will pay you cash and bamm, now it cost a lot less.
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Old 03-29-2012, 04:01 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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That is part of the scam I mentioned before. No doubt your bill was $50,000. But I bet that is not what the insurance company paid out. $50,000 is a fake value. The insurance company has a deal with the hospital to satisfy that bill for much less.

As far as high insurance rates high because of people that do not pay, that's BS. The insurance companies do not pay for uninsured people. The hospitals are the ones that eat the cost. And like I said before it is a big number game. When I paid cash the same procedures cost one forth of what I was originally told. At the time they thought I was insured because I was on file from the past, but I dropped coverage. Told them I will pay you cash and bamm, now it cost a lot less.
I don't think any industry is going to fully eat the cost of people who don't pay. Those costs get spread around. Same thing that will be happening in 2014.
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Old 03-29-2012, 04:07 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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I would not cover elective cosmetic surgery unless it was related to injury or other surgery. I would not necessarily cover old people who wanted knee replacements unless they were no longer mobile.
Makes sense. But if you were running for office, you couldn't come out and say anything about limiting older people's medical options. They VOTE.

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I would implement lifestyle surcharges so that the 2/3 of Americans who are obese bear more of the burden of their own healthcare.
Again - be careful. I agree 100% - but instead of taxing fat people - give "breaks" to healthy people.

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I would create one sole singular electronic patient records system nationally.
Haven't we done this - or at least made major progress?

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Then I would put price caps in place for drugs and for most medical and surgical procedures without exception.
Yes!

Quote:
I would legalize all directed organ donation and I would create a system whereby people could in fact buy contract an organ on their own. For profit if need be.
No! Gets "me" personally back to "right" v. "privilege."

Quote:
I would create different facilities for chronic care cases outside of the hospital system - more clinically and hospice driven, one which doesn't require as many MD's.
Seems very reasonable.

Quote:
I would induce schools to churn out more N.P's and P.A's and far fewer MD's. I have not seen a PCP MD in 15 years, there's no need.
We seem to be slowly moving in that direction. I see my PCP physician for a fraction of the time I see his nurse.

Quote:
And Malpractice is a red herring. At most the insurance accounts for about 7% of gross billings. Stop paying attention to it it's a fake issue.
OK! You got my vote! But be careful about offending the fat people and you'll need a slightly different spin on the elderly issue.
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Old 03-29-2012, 04:17 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Any thoughts on the health care crisis?

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As far as high insurance rates high because of people that do not pay, that's BS. The insurance companies do not pay for uninsured people. The hospitals are the ones that eat the cost. And like I said before it is a big number game. When I paid cash the same procedures cost one forth of what I was originally told. At the time they thought I was insured because I was on file from the past, but I dropped coverage. Told them I will pay you cash and bamm, now it cost a lot less.
How is it BS? In a round about way that is what happens. When the hospitals eat the costs of the uninsured, they in turn gouge the insured people because they know they will get some of that lost cost back from us. Therefore the insurance companies gouge us back. It's a vicious cycle and it's all related.
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