Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country. - Page 10 - Talk About Marriage
Politics and Religion This is the place to discuss politics, morality, religion, and anything controversial.

User Tag List

 62Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #136 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 11:17 AM
Member
 
Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 8,772
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therealbrighteyes View Post
We have great healthcare, if you can afford it. We rank 37th in the world. The World Health Organization shows that we are just above Cuba. Please provide your data that shows we have the best health care in the world. Here's mine:

World Health Organization’s Ranking of the World’s Health Systems | thepatientfactor.com

The 36 Best Healthcare Systems In The World - Business Insider

Here's a part from that article that stands out: The results became notorious — the US healthcare system came in 15th in overall performance, and first in overall expenditure per capita. That result meant that its overall ranking was 37th.
I am always very leery of government or in this case UN sponsored studies. This study is a good example of a politically motivated result, and a lot of details which are important.

But there is a valid point we in the USA spend too much on a per capita basis for the administration of health care. The actual provider is having his/her wages squashed every day. Privately employed providers are under a lot of pressure from insurance companies. Medicare/Medicaid providers are getting outright slaughtered by the government.

Yet the upper parts of management are getting enormous salaries. So yes there is a problem with the administration of health insurance in this country.

The UN's WHO study has a lot of problems with their ranking system. Sociology, eating habits, and other factors are in play which confound the results. For example is it the fault of "The Health Care System" that a large portion of the American population eats fatty sugary junk food all the time and wash it down with gallons of soda pumped full of high fructose corn syrup? We know longevity is enhanced with a calorie restricted diet, really to the point of almost a calorie deficient diet. We know exercise and walking are excellent for health. So in a poorer country or one with less 20th century suburban sprawl the population may be a lot healthier just due to lifestyle.

I know if I need a hip replacement I would rather be crippled in a wheelchair than go to Cuba! My first choice is a US hospital and an American surgeon.

Our health care system is hobbled by the FDA which restricts innovations and non-pharma treatments. Our health insurance system is hobbled by federal laws and regulations.

Thor is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #137 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 11:32 AM
Member
 
Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 8,772
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trenton View Post
Yeah. The problem with Obamacare is it doesn't do enough to address the actual problem which is the insurance industry.

My husband's employer just changed healthcare plans...it's a freaking puzzle just to enroll and effects take place 1/1/13.
I see this as really the big issue, our health insurance tied to employment. I bet you didn't get forced to change your auto or homeowners policies at the same time.

One of our members here had that situation where he lost insurance when he lost a job, and then his son was very ill. It happened because of federal meddling, not for lack of federal control.

BTW, Trenton, you will probably come to like the HSA next year and I predict it will have a surprising change in the way you view health care. Under the old systems we paid little when we went to the doctor, but we paid a lot toward the insurance. It actually encouraged us to go to the doctor sometimes. Under the HSA you are paying for regular medical services and then have that backup of insurance in case of catastrophic expense.

Just like you pay for oil changes in your car but have collision insurance in case something catastrophic happens.

I find that it does reduce the casual attitude of getting an expensive procedure like an MRI, or getting a prescription just for the heck of it. But the surprising part is that I am much more willing to spend money on a medical service which is important to me. Because I am paying I am choosing, which sometimes means I choose to pay for something otherwise not covered. I no longer feel herded into the approved system, I feel freed to make my own choices. Which sometimes means choosing to spend.
Thor is online now  
post #138 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 12:28 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 7,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
One of our members here had that situation where he lost insurance when he lost a job, and then his son was very ill. It happened because of federal meddling, not for lack of federal control.
Can you explain? Which part of this problem did the government cause - and how?

“Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!" - Carlin
nice777guy is offline  
 
post #139 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 12:48 PM
Member
 
Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 8,772
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nice777guy View Post
Can you explain? Which part of this problem did the government cause - and how?
Two major components. First is the tax incentive to attach health insurance to employment. Second is the stifling of the free market in health insurance.

Taxes: The government allows the cost of health insurance to be deductible. Realize that the employer has no reason to deal with the hassles of health benefits. The tax benefits mean that we as employees are getting our health insurance as a tax deduction.

When my employer pays 2/3rds of the premium it is not coming out of their pocket it is coming out of mine. My productivity brings in $X per year to the company. They pay me salary plus benefits from that $X I produce, and they of course keep some profit out of it. The history of this is that tax rates used to be more progressive, meaning they got much higher as income went up. Employers started offering benefits rather than pay because the benefits were not taxed. It was a way to boost compensation for the employee while getting around high taxes.

If there were no tax benefit to running health insurance through employment we would all buy it ourselves outside of work. Exactly how we do with auto or homeowners or life insurance. We use some of our pay to buy insurances. It makes us superb consumers because we shop for price. We buy the coverage we want. Maybe we want full comprehensive auto insurance, or maybe we want only collision with a high deductible. Maybe we want $1million life insurance, or maybe we don't want any. Insurance companies compete for our business by matching their products to our demands. They compete on price to get us to buy their product.

Stifling the Free Market: But we cannot go out on a free market to buy health insurance regardless if it is available through a job. The fedgov prohibits nationwide health insurance products. Geico advertises nationwide their gecko car insurance, but health insurance cannot do that. So the supply is limited artificially, resulting in less competition. And thus prices are artificially high to buy health insurance. Secondly, the fedgov mandates what must be covered. For example birth control, and dependents up to age 26. If we are putting young adults on parents' insurance, it means more expenses to be covered. Thus our premiums get more expensive. Those young adults aren't paying into the insurance but they are getting coverage due to government mandate.

The fedgov legislates and regulates every aspect of health insurance coverage. Good or bad, the products we can get are designed by government.

So to get to our TAM member's situation which is a common one. He had family health insurance through his employer. When his job ended he lost the insurance. His son became ill and thus had a pre-existing condition which would not be covered by any new private insurance plan. Of course not! If you had no auto insurance and then crashed your car, Geico isn't going to sign you up and then pay for that repair. Fortunately for our TAM member his state had a plan which he was able to utilize.

Now imagine if we had a free market for health insurance untethered from our jobs. Our TAM friend would have kept his insurance just like he kept his other insurances after his job loss.

The government has created the system we have, which is the system which let down our TAM friend.

Last edited by Thor; 12-07-2012 at 12:57 PM.
Thor is online now  
post #140 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,645
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post


The UN's WHO study has a lot of problems with their ranking system. Sociology, eating habits, and other factors are in play which confound the results. For example is it the fault of "The Health Care System" that a large portion of the American population eats fatty sugary junk food all the time and wash it down with gallons of soda pumped full of high fructose corn syrup? We know longevity is enhanced with a calorie restricted diet, really to the point of almost a calorie deficient diet. We know exercise and walking are excellent for health. So in a poorer country or one with less 20th century suburban sprawl the population may be a lot healthier just due to lifestyle.

I know if I need a hip replacement I would rather be crippled in a wheelchair than go to Cuba! My first choice is a US hospital and an American surgeon.

Our health care system is hobbled by the FDA which restricts innovations and non-pharma treatments. Our health insurance system is hobbled by federal laws and regulations.
I agree 100% with you. The reason why France ranked the highest is that many of their citizens have a healthier lifestyle in general, most noted is that they walk nearly everywhere. Despite a diet rich in cheese and cream sauces, I read that the average Parisian walks nearly 4 miles a day. That coupled with a moderate amount of red wine, they are a very heart healthy nation. Other countries such as Greece rank high because their primary diet is rich in "good fats" such as olive oil which has been proven to be heart healthy and a large staple of their diet is fresh vegetables. Okinawa, Japan has the longest longevity in the world with nearly 35% of their citizens living past 100 years. Their diet is mostly fish and plant based, seaweed being a large component of it and proven to have some incredible anti-oxidant properties.

I don't think any of these societies have a calorie restricted diet though. They are just very particular about their food and eat fresh. Most also have the option to buy local sourced food, not food that had been sprayed with pesticides, meat injected with hormones and other frankenfoods. Buying local in most of the EU is cheaper and better quality.

Let's say you are a true middle class family of 4 in the U.S. who has $100 a week to spend on food, would you pay $2.89 for carrots that are organic or would you pay $1.09 for ones that are not? What about chicken, would you pay $7.99 for two breasts that are organic or would you pay $4.49 for 6 that are not? The organic milk at my store is $5.59 for a liter, while the non organic option is $2.99 for a gallon. Again, your entire budget to feed your family is $100 for that week. Everybody would chose the non-organic option just out of necessity.

What is the cost? We are the largest consumers of energy drinks in the world. Why? Our food has little to no nutrition. Food that has been genetically modified to taste good but is the nutritional equivalent of packing peanuts to our body. We are tired all the time, sluggish and thus sedentary. We eat right before we go to bed because what we ate 3 hours ago gave us little nutrition so our bodies tell us to eat some more. Now we cannot sleep so we take Lunesta to make sure we get a good nights rest. We take anti-depressants because our bodies have garbage as fuel to go on. We feel sad, tired and worn out. We have the highest rate of cancer in the world. 1 in 4 Americans will get some form of cancer and that is up by 300% from 20 years ago.

Until we as a people demand that our food gets back to ACTUAL food and not hormone laden/pesticide riddled and vitamin stripped garbage, there is no way to control health care costs. As my father once said , you either put a fence at the top of the hill or a bunch of ambulances at the bottom.
Therealbrighteyes is offline  
post #141 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,645
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
Stifling the Free Market:
So to get to our TAM member's situation which is a common one. He had family health insurance through his employer. When his job ended he lost the insurance. His son became ill and thus had a pre-existing condition which would not be covered by any new private insurance plan. Of course not! If you had no auto insurance and then crashed your car, Geico isn't going to sign you up and then pay for that repair. Fortunately for our TAM member his state had a plan which he was able to utilize.

Now imagine if we had a free market for health insurance untethered from our jobs. Our TAM friend would have kept his insurance just like he kept his other insurances after his job loss.

The government has created the system we have, which is the system which let down our TAM friend.
I'm confused. What Obama is trying to do with much push back from those who make millions from HMO's, PPO's and PPM's is to make sure all Americans have health insurance and NONE of what he is doing is tethered to a company. He wants to ensure that regardless of job status, every single American citizen who has health insurance continues to have insurance and wants to do away with pre-existing conditions.
Therealbrighteyes is offline  
post #142 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 02:38 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 4,636
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by homebuilder View Post
wonder why people come from all over the world to get health treatment in the U.S Because their socialized medicine won't pay for it
You mean like all the folks who used to go to Canada to get their prescription drugs? Or those who go to Europe to get experimental treatments.
Tall Average Guy is offline  
post #143 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 02:42 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 4,636
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
I see this as really the big issue, our health insurance tied to employment. I bet you didn't get forced to change your auto or homeowners policies at the same time.

One of our members here had that situation where he lost insurance when he lost a job, and then his son was very ill. It happened because of federal meddling, not for lack of federal control.

BTW, Trenton, you will probably come to like the HSA next year and I predict it will have a surprising change in the way you view health care. Under the old systems we paid little when we went to the doctor, but we paid a lot toward the insurance. It actually encouraged us to go to the doctor sometimes. Under the HSA you are paying for regular medical services and then have that backup of insurance in case of catastrophic expense.

Just like you pay for oil changes in your car but have collision insurance in case something catastrophic happens.

I find that it does reduce the casual attitude of getting an expensive procedure like an MRI, or getting a prescription just for the heck of it. But the surprising part is that I am much more willing to spend money on a medical service which is important to me. Because I am paying I am choosing, which sometimes means I choose to pay for something otherwise not covered. I no longer feel herded into the approved system, I feel freed to make my own choices. Which sometimes means choosing to spend.
Interesting. I also switched to an HSA a couple of years back, but did not see much of a difference in how I viewed the medical system or interacted with it. I did like the choices it gave me (no need for a referral for a specialist) and I do think it works better. I will have to think more about whether we changed our habits on getting medical care or not.
Tall Average Guy is offline  
post #144 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 03:40 PM
Member
 
Runs like Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Redneckistan
Posts: 10,054
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Average Guy View Post
You mean like all the folks who used to go to Canada to get their prescription drugs? Or those who go to Europe to get experimental treatments.
Or the backlog of Canadian heart surgery patients in Detroit, Buffalo and such.

Is there such thing as insanity among penguins? - Werner Herzog
Runs like Dog is offline  
post #145 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,645
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Average Guy View Post
You mean like all the folks who used to go to Canada to get their prescription drugs? Or those who go to Europe to get experimental treatments.
Funny you should mention that. I am born and raised in the United States. My parents immigrated from Sweden and my twin sister who was also born and raised in the U.S. moved to Sweden 15 years ago. She said that any country who cares so little about the well being of their citizens isn't a country she wants any part of.

My meds that aren't covered by insurance cost me close to $1800 a month. I'd like to hear from those who think the U.S. is first in the world for health care. As I said, it's a lie. We ARE first in the world for those who can afford it but f@ck everybody else who cannot.

Therealbrighteyes is offline  
post #146 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 03:45 PM
Member
 
Runs like Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Redneckistan
Posts: 10,054
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

There is a wonderful irony in the high cost of smoking drinking and eating poorly which in turn results in absurdly high medical costs to address that. So for example 90% chronic cardiac care and COPD patients, diabetics and kidney disease cases are because of smoking, drinking, eating too much, being inert and immobile.

Is there such thing as insanity among penguins? - Werner Herzog
Runs like Dog is offline  
post #147 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,645
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runs like Dog View Post
There is a wonderful irony in the high cost of smoking drinking and eating poorly which in turn results in absurdly high medical costs to address that. So for example 90% chronic cardiac care and COPD patients, diabetics and kidney disease cases are because of smoking, drinking, eating too much, being inert and immobile.
RLD, I would like to hear what you have to say about altered food. In case you care, I have 17% body fat as a 41 year old woman. I also have breast cancer and am lucky it is staved off as I do not believe anybody ever is cured of cancer, it just waits. I do know what will kill me, I just fight it off every single day.
Therealbrighteyes is offline  
post #148 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 04:10 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 7,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
Two major components. First is the tax incentive to attach health insurance to employment. Second is the stifling of the free market in health insurance.

Taxes: The government allows the cost of health insurance to be deductible. Realize that the employer has no reason to deal with the hassles of health benefits. The tax benefits mean that we as employees are getting our health insurance as a tax deduction.

When my employer pays 2/3rds of the premium it is not coming out of their pocket it is coming out of mine. My productivity brings in $X per year to the company. They pay me salary plus benefits from that $X I produce, and they of course keep some profit out of it. The history of this is that tax rates used to be more progressive, meaning they got much higher as income went up. Employers started offering benefits rather than pay because the benefits were not taxed. It was a way to boost compensation for the employee while getting around high taxes.

If there were no tax benefit to running health insurance through employment we would all buy it ourselves outside of work. Exactly how we do with auto or homeowners or life insurance. We use some of our pay to buy insurances. It makes us superb consumers because we shop for price. We buy the coverage we want. Maybe we want full comprehensive auto insurance, or maybe we want only collision with a high deductible. Maybe we want $1million life insurance, or maybe we don't want any. Insurance companies compete for our business by matching their products to our demands. They compete on price to get us to buy their product.

Stifling the Free Market: But we cannot go out on a free market to buy health insurance regardless if it is available through a job. The fedgov prohibits nationwide health insurance products. Geico advertises nationwide their gecko car insurance, but health insurance cannot do that. So the supply is limited artificially, resulting in less competition. And thus prices are artificially high to buy health insurance. Secondly, the fedgov mandates what must be covered. For example birth control, and dependents up to age 26. If we are putting young adults on parents' insurance, it means more expenses to be covered. Thus our premiums get more expensive. Those young adults aren't paying into the insurance but they are getting coverage due to government mandate.

The fedgov legislates and regulates every aspect of health insurance coverage. Good or bad, the products we can get are designed by government.

So to get to our TAM member's situation which is a common one. He had family health insurance through his employer. When his job ended he lost the insurance. His son became ill and thus had a pre-existing condition which would not be covered by any new private insurance plan. Of course not! If you had no auto insurance and then crashed your car, Geico isn't going to sign you up and then pay for that repair. Fortunately for our TAM member his state had a plan which he was able to utilize.

Now imagine if we had a free market for health insurance untethered from our jobs. Our TAM friend would have kept his insurance just like he kept his other insurances after his job loss.

The government has created the system we have, which is the system which let down our TAM friend.
I thought it was Employers that started this tradition of offering healthcare as part of a compensation package. Even 10 years ago - long before any of us knew who Barack Obama was - employers were offering healthcare 1) to compete with other employers' compensation packages and 2) because someone at some point became convinced that healthy workers are productive workers.

Obviously there are still many employers who see no reason to offer healthcare.

And under the new laws of our "meddling government" - this young man with pre-existing conditions will be able to receive proper coverage. This is exactly why I support the reform. I know I've said it - even somewhere in this thread - that I think it's important that I not ever have to go bankrupt trying to care for my family because myself or my children would ever become ill during a temporary lapse in employment. Obamacare takes care of this very issue.

“Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!" - Carlin
nice777guy is offline  
post #149 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 04:18 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 7,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therealbrighteyes View Post
Funny you should mention that. I am born and raised in the United States. My parents immigrated from Sweden and my twin sister who was also born and raised in the U.S. moved to Sweden 15 years ago. She said that any country who cares so little about the well being of their citizens isn't a country she wants any part of.

My meds that aren't covered by insurance cost me close to $1800 a month. I'd like to hear from those who think the U.S. is first in the world for health care. As I said, it's a lie. We ARE first in the world for those who can afford it but f@ck everybody else who cannot.
It's a Privilege when it should be a Right.

People who have more money shouldn't have better access to Necessary healthcare than the average middle class citizen.

Why should someone making $50k per year have to die because they can't afford the treatment?

Is a 50 year old small business owner with a spouse and two kids less deserving of a kidney transplant than a 65 year old CEO just because they make less money?

“Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!" - Carlin
nice777guy is offline  
post #150 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 04:22 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,633
Re: Okay, tell me what you think is best for this country.

You can find stuff all over the internet backing up any story. If we're talk aboutthe untruthful insurance companies do we really believe the politicians are the picture of honesty. I agree we need to improve but Obama care us not it
Posted via Mobile Device
homebuilder is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on Talk About Marriage, you must first register. Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Important! Your username will be visible to the public next to anything you post and could show up in search engines like Google. If you are concerned about anonymity, PLEASE choose a username that will not be recognizable to anyone you know.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
In another country and seperated!!! hope.88 Coping with Infidelity 12 11-01-2012 10:56 PM
Moving to a new country Ipman The Men's Clubhouse 5 09-20-2012 02:28 PM
Where is your country of origin ArabianKnight General Relationship Discussion 0 08-09-2011 11:36 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome