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post #76 of 158 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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I agree with that Chuck. I suspect neglect vs abuse but you could argue neglect is abuse....

There are so many red flags to me but legally she has joint custody so I can't focus on that. Kids are getting older and outspoken. It will work out. They won't tolerate it forever. Hopefully XW does some soul searching. I just wish she were excited to be a mom and not treat it like a chore, like taking out the garbage. I think being a parent is awesome!

I'm painting my daughter's nails, French braids, fish tail braids, you name it. I'm into all of it.

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post #77 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 06:22 PM
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Re: Wow... that is all

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I agree with that Chuck. I suspect neglect vs abuse but you could argue neglect is abuse....

There are so many red flags to me but legally she has joint custody so I can't focus on that. Kids are getting older and outspoken. It will work out. They won't tolerate it forever. Hopefully XW does some soul searching. I just wish she were excited to be a mom and not treat it like a chore, like taking out the garbage. I think being a parent is awesome!

I'm painting my daughter's nails, French braids, fish tail braids, you name it. I'm into all of it.
So, I read through your thread quickly so I apologize if I've missed anything pertinent.

First, as a victim of abuse as a child myself, don't think that just because your kids are getting older and more outspoken that things will work out. Even if they don't tolerate it forever, they will carry it with them forever if it continues and they don't get the help they need. I come from a family of five siblings, and two of us are severely mentally damaged to the point of it affecting their ability to live life. You've described how your kids pee and poop in public so it's a safe bet that they're not learning healthy coping mechanisms.

It's fantastic that you think parent is being awesome, but I think you need to keep fighting to find a way to remove her from the equation as much as possible. I know you've done a lot to this end already, but your kids will thank you for your persistence. She likely never wanted the responsibility of being a parent (just like my father didn't) as you point out and there really is very little worse than that. Being around that form of neglect destroys your self-esteem.

In terms of the emails she has sent you... that's the real pickle from my perspective. She wants to be back with you and the family and as long as she doesn't have that, but wants it, her behavior will persist. At this point, she's conditioned to know that if she neglects your children or lashes out that she'll get a reaction from you. From her perspective, reaction=interaction, which she hopes will lead to reconciliation. It's twisted and dark and upsetting, but I think that's how she's trained her mind to deal with this in an effort to get what she wants.

Just my advice, but I would respond to either the email she sent asking for forgiveness, or if you prefer to wait for the inevitable next one, respond to it. I'd give her the forgiveness she's seeking but make it clear that the relationship is over and that you both need to be there for the kids. If you ignore, ignore, ignore... well, you know at this point what's going to happen.

I'd be right with everyone else telling you to ignore her if kids weren't involved, but they are, and it seems like she leverages them to hurt you and force contact. I wouldn't be surprised if her clouded mind believes that all she needs to be a good parent is for the family to be reunited.

Obviously, take this with a grain of salt but as a victim of child abuse I felt the need to give my opinion. I truly hope it gets better for you and your kids.
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post #78 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 07:03 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Wow... that is all

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So, I read through your thread quickly so I apologize if I've missed anything pertinent.

First, as a victim of abuse as a child myself, don't think that just because your kids are getting older and more outspoken that things will work out. Even if they don't tolerate it forever, they will carry it with them forever if it continues and they don't get the help they need. I come from a family of five siblings, and two of us are severely mentally damaged to the point of it affecting their ability to live life. You've described how your kids pee and poop in public so it's a safe bet that they're not learning healthy coping mechanisms.

It's fantastic that you think parent is being awesome, but I think you need to keep fighting to find a way to remove her from the equation as much as possible. I know you've done a lot to this end already, but your kids will thank you for your persistence. She likely never wanted the responsibility of being a parent (just like my father didn't) as you point out and there really is very little worse than that. Being around that form of neglect destroys your self-esteem.

In terms of the emails she has sent you... that's the real pickle from my perspective. She wants to be back with you and the family and as long as she doesn't have that, but wants it, her behavior will persist. At this point, she's conditioned to know that if she neglects your children or lashes out that she'll get a reaction from you. From her perspective, reaction=interaction, which she hopes will lead to reconciliation. It's twisted and dark and upsetting, but I think that's how she's trained her mind to deal with this in an effort to get what she wants.

Just my advice, but I would respond to either the email she sent asking for forgiveness, or if you prefer to wait for the inevitable next one, respond to it. I'd give her the forgiveness she's seeking but make it clear that the relationship is over and that you both need to be there for the kids. If you ignore, ignore, ignore... well, you know at this point what's going to happen.

I'd be right with everyone else telling you to ignore her if kids weren't involved, but they are, and it seems like she leverages them to hurt you and force contact. I wouldn't be surprised if her clouded mind believes that all she needs to be a good parent is for the family to be reunited.

Obviously, take this with a grain of salt but as a victim of child abuse I felt the need to give my opinion. I truly hope it gets better for you and your kids.
Wow... thank you for your comments. Heartbreaking to hear what you have endured as a result.

I will keep my eyes open for another opportunity to get custody though I am not sure I have any options left at this time. I suppose I could keep documenting stuff, just feel like through the 2 mediations and 1 Guardian Ad Litem, the court system is NOT likely to help me at all. I don't want to accuse them of being biased against fathers, but honestly if it were their kids and they were in my shoes I highly doubt they would be as accommodating to their mom.

Totally agree with you in regards to her wanting any type of reaction from me to count as interaction. My problem is - say I forgive her. What does that look like to her? Us doing family events again with the kids? I'm not interested in that. Would you advise me to get over it and do it anyways? Does that mean her and I are now friends? Also not interested in that. I suppose I could simply ask her what "forgiveness" means or looks like to her. But honestly I don't really care to have a conversation with her about her feelings since they don't matter to me.

My fear is that forgiveness means opening a door that I have shut at great personal cost and effort. One that she thinks can be reopened. I don't see myself typing an email saying "I forgive you but don't ever contact me again and I have no interest in being your friend. But sure you can have forgiveness."

Last week she asked to speak to me about the kids and her job. She wants my support with the kids as she is now going to be building homes, like 5 per year. Problem is the first one she wants to build as a model. She can't afford the model home and her home so she is going to build the model home and then sell her existing home and move into the model. In just over the past 3 years this now marks the 6th or 7th home she has bounced the kids into. In the same timeframe, this is now the 5th job or career change. She asked that I tell the kids how this is a good thing for them.

I respectfully declined and told her that I think it will be terrible for the kids. The house they are in now she just bought in May 2016. That I'm not going to pretend something is great for them when it's not. That I'm not there to share in her successes and therefore don't want any responsibility to share in her failures either. Told her I will support the kids like always have, but will not being involved in selling them on her life changes and will do my absolute best to just stay out of her business, keep my opinions to myself around the kids, and let her handle it. For my own sanity I can't be involved in her life on any level. I said I've never heard of anyone moving kids between 6 or 7 homes in 3 years except maybe gypsies or something.

Her reply: I am doing it to be able to be as close to a stay home mom that I can. It is about the kids and how I can provide the most quality time. Not even sure it will happen. It is in God's hands. His master plan, I am just a long for the ride.

The kids mentioned the new house and the move this weekend and how they are not happy about it. I just said "well, look at it as an adventure."
Not sure what else to say or do. Sucks...
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post #79 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 07:31 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Wow... that is all

This is the type of emails I usually get from her...

On our son having accidents at her house:
...It is always at stressful moments. Especially if he senses things are stressful between you and I or during times of activities that are suppose to be for the "family".


That's why I am leery of what "forgiveness" means to her. She doesn't come out and directly say she wants to get back together anymore, but definitely wants to do stuff as a "family" even though we are now divorced as she wanted. Keeps sending crap to me about forgiving her, including sending emails to my mom.

After I notified her the kids were sent to school without her feeding them any breakfast:
What can I do to put an end to your hate for me. I am working hard at being the best mom I can be and pray for God's help every day. I feel not matter what I do you will continue to tear me down and bully me. I ask that you take a moment to read through your text messages that you send me. They are so hateful and mean. Surly not how God would want you to interact with me. I forgive you for these hurtful words and pray for peace in this situation. Please find it in your heart to forgive me for my hurtful words that I have used against you. I am sorry.

For the record - here is the entirety of what I sent her when they were not fed:
XW, I want you to be aware that Daughter was laying on the floor feeling ill at school this afternoon and she got sick. After we got home she was crying and upset because she was so hungry. Son said he was starving too and that neither had eaten breakfast before school this morning. On the chance it was nausea caused by hunger pains, I fed her dinner and she seemed fine afterwards.
Son also said he was late for his student council meeting today and had been crying at school about it this morning.


I don't see that being such a hateful email to her. My friends and family wanted me to blast her hard, but I didn't. At least I didn't think so.
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post #80 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 10:05 AM
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Re: Wow... that is all

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This is the type of emails I usually get from her...

On our son having accidents at her house:
...It is always at stressful moments. Especially if he senses things are stressful between you and I or during times of activities that are suppose to be for the "family".


That's why I am leery of what "forgiveness" means to her. She doesn't come out and directly say she wants to get back together anymore, but definitely wants to do stuff as a "family" even though we are now divorced as she wanted. Keeps sending crap to me about forgiving her, including sending emails to my mom.

After I notified her the kids were sent to school without her feeding them any breakfast:
What can I do to put an end to your hate for me. I am working hard at being the best mom I can be and pray for God's help every day. I feel not matter what I do you will continue to tear me down and bully me. I ask that you take a moment to read through your text messages that you send me. They are so hateful and mean. Surly not how God would want you to interact with me. I forgive you for these hurtful words and pray for peace in this situation. Please find it in your heart to forgive me for my hurtful words that I have used against you. I am sorry.

For the record - here is the entirety of what I sent her when they were not fed:
XW, I want you to be aware that Daughter was laying on the floor feeling ill at school this afternoon and she got sick. After we got home she was crying and upset because she was so hungry. Son said he was starving too and that neither had eaten breakfast before school this morning. On the chance it was nausea caused by hunger pains, I fed her dinner and she seemed fine afterwards.
Son also said he was late for his student council meeting today and had been crying at school about it this morning.


I don't see that being such a hateful email to her. My friends and family wanted me to blast her hard, but I didn't. At least I didn't think so.
Nothing like an "eternal victim" trying to shield her neglect by hiding behind the cross.

Maybe if she got off those damn dating sites and went to bed at a decent hour,

she could get up in time to fix the kids breakfast. Look into their pee / poop issues....

something is going on in their life they do not approve of. Talk to the school psychologist and

social worker. They will contact CPS if they suspect neglect. In my state, CPS have to investigate

even an anonymous call about neglect. Sadly though a lot of calls are from trailer trash just

wanting to annoy other trailer trash. Reason why the CPS is understaffed and always behind.

A call from their school would have a lot more clout.

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C-Never make the person in your present pay for the sins committed by people from your past
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post #81 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 11:39 AM
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Re: Wow... that is all

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Wow... thank you for your comments. Heartbreaking to hear what you have endured as a result.

I will keep my eyes open for another opportunity to get custody though I am not sure I have any options left at this time. I suppose I could keep documenting stuff, just feel like through the 2 mediations and 1 Guardian Ad Litem, the court system is NOT likely to help me at all. I don't want to accuse them of being biased against fathers, but honestly if it were their kids and they were in my shoes I highly doubt they would be as accommodating to their mom.

Totally agree with you in regards to her wanting any type of reaction from me to count as interaction. My problem is - say I forgive her. What does that look like to her? Us doing family events again with the kids? I'm not interested in that. Would you advise me to get over it and do it anyways? Does that mean her and I are now friends? Also not interested in that. I suppose I could simply ask her what "forgiveness" means or looks like to her. But honestly I don't really care to have a conversation with her about her feelings since they don't matter to me.

My fear is that forgiveness means opening a door that I have shut at great personal cost and effort. One that she thinks can be reopened. I don't see myself typing an email saying "I forgive you but don't ever contact me again and I have no interest in being your friend. But sure you can have forgiveness."

Last week she asked to speak to me about the kids and her job. She wants my support with the kids as she is now going to be building homes, like 5 per year. Problem is the first one she wants to build as a model. She can't afford the model home and her home so she is going to build the model home and then sell her existing home and move into the model. In just over the past 3 years this now marks the 6th or 7th home she has bounced the kids into. In the same timeframe, this is now the 5th job or career change. She asked that I tell the kids how this is a good thing for them.

I respectfully declined and told her that I think it will be terrible for the kids. The house they are in now she just bought in May 2016. That I'm not going to pretend something is great for them when it's not. That I'm not there to share in her successes and therefore don't want any responsibility to share in her failures either. Told her I will support the kids like always have, but will not being involved in selling them on her life changes and will do my absolute best to just stay out of her business, keep my opinions to myself around the kids, and let her handle it. For my own sanity I can't be involved in her life on any level. I said I've never heard of anyone moving kids between 6 or 7 homes in 3 years except maybe gypsies or something.

Her reply: I am doing it to be able to be as close to a stay home mom that I can. It is about the kids and how I can provide the most quality time. Not even sure it will happen. It is in God's hands. His master plan, I am just a long for the ride.

The kids mentioned the new house and the move this weekend and how they are not happy about it. I just said "well, look at it as an adventure."
Not sure what else to say or do. Sucks...
Man, your situation really is a crappy one. I'm really sorry.

On the subject of forgiveness... it could go a lot of ways. She might continue the exact same pattern of behavior. She might redouble her efforts to get your family back together under one roof. Or, she just might accept it and finally be able to move on.

It's an unknown and that's terrifying for sure. You've put in a lot of effort to get to where you are in regards to your feelings (or lack thereof) for her. I can empathize with the fear that forgiveness might open a door you don't want opened.

However, I still say that in the interest of the kids, you should reply and say something to her. Until you do something different, her pattern will persist. It might persist after that point, but at least you'll have disrupted the status quo.

Be as firm as you can in your reply. Outline the things you can't have with her (contact outside of talking about the kids, no family dates etc.). If you want, go into specifics about why. For the family dates, that's easy; it would be incredibly confusing and damaging to your kids after everything that has happened to see you two together but not 'together'.

If you're clear, there's a chance (who knows how good of one, but a chance) that she'll stop sending those types of e-mails, asking for your support for things like moving around all the time and be able to focus on being a good parent to your kids. It's also possible she won't, but you've been going through this for 3-4 years with the same pattern of behavior. Sending some kind of clear, concise and honest message is a new approach that might yield different results.

I know all of this is easier said than done but at worst it seems like she'd keep doing what she's doing.
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post #82 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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I'll definitely give that serious consideration. Thanks for the input.

My concern is just going near somewhere that I don't want to be. When she was on her way out the entire last year or so of our marriage, she would frequently comment to me "you need to bottle up your feelings because I just can't worry about them right now."

I have seen nothing to indicate she has changed. Even if she did change, I'm still not interested. I find her behavior towards her own children appalling.

My gut tells me to stay the heck away from her, permanently. Yeah, she might leave me alone if I reply. But I can easily keep ignoring her and she will eventually get the hint. And that option doesn't involve me having any communication with her, which is a huge plus. I feel like dropping my guard and revealing any of my emotions will also run the risk of giving her more ammo to try and use to manipulate me in the future.

As I type this, I think my answer is clear. Less time thinking or worrying about her - more time focusing on myself and my kids. She likely does need support figuring her life out. She fired me from that job. Not my problem anymore.

I really appreciate the insight you have given me.
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post #83 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 04:19 PM
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Re: Wow... that is all

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I'll definitely give that serious consideration. Thanks for the input.

My concern is just going near somewhere that I don't want to be. When she was on her way out the entire last year or so of our marriage, she would frequently comment to me "you need to bottle up your feelings because I just can't worry about them right now."

I have seen nothing to indicate she has changed. Even if she did change, I'm still not interested. I find her behavior towards her own children appalling.

My gut tells me to stay the heck away from her, permanently. Yeah, she might leave me alone if I reply. But I can easily keep ignoring her and she will eventually get the hint. And that option doesn't involve me having any communication with her, which is a huge plus. I feel like dropping my guard and revealing any of my emotions will also run the risk of giving her more ammo to try and use to manipulate me in the future.

As I type this, I think my answer is clear. Less time thinking or worrying about her - more time focusing on myself and my kids. She likely does need support figuring her life out. She fired me from that job. Not my problem anymore.

I really appreciate the insight you have given me.
It feels like there's a disconnect here. Forgive if I'm wrong, but saying you're indifferent about her and yet you're still worried about going near somewhere you don't want to be doesn't exactly sync up. If she still has the ability to conjure fears that interaction can bring you down then I don't think that's indifference.

Which is totally fine! I'm not saying you should feel that way, but I think it'll help you deal with this if you can be completely transparent about your feelings.

On the point of staying away from her permanently... you have kids, that's not going to happen until at least they are adults. Some form of interaction is an unfortunate necessity before that happens.

Again, I just keep coming back to the kids and the signs that she uses them as leverage to get to you. I only suggest you contact her with a clear and succinct response telling her the two of you are forever done and that there won't be any family dates or the like, because you need to do something to break the established pattern of behavior for your children's sake.

I hate seeing someone like you go through this and to know another parent out there (her in this case) uses their kids like pawns. My advice may cause more hardship for you—there aren't any guarantees—but she will persist with this path until something new happens to disrupt her status quo. You're clearly bothered by her contact and behavior so why not try something different?
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post #84 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 04:33 PM
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Re: Wow... that is all

She needs to find her a GD boyfriend. That way she HAS to look like a good mom and fix her

kids breakfast. Seriously.... pop tarts and OJ would be suffice. She can't do that.

Her career, her love life, and somewhere between cosmetics and china.... are the kids.

Pathetic, insipid, immoral.... Get in touch with the school and get them to a specialized child

therapist and find out WITF they are wetting and soiling themselves at their age.

I hold WWs in low regard but.... unfit mothers.... lower than dirt.

Being a WW and good mother would be an upgrade for her sorry arse

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B-We know what we are, but know not what we may be
C-Never make the person in your present pay for the sins committed by people from your past
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post #85 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 05:27 PM
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Re: Wow... that is all

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Seriously.... pop tarts and OJ would be suffice.
Even toddlers can make themselves cereal if the milk is in a small enough container that they can lift it.

If their mother won't take care of them, maybe you should work on teaching them to care for themselves as much as possible.

Have you spoken to a a lawyer about the many moves? With this newest move and the kids being unhappy about it, could you go back to court and ask for custody on grounds of her unstable living situation? Would the judge be likely to take the kids wishes into consideration at their ages?


Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #86 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 05:46 PM
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Re: Wow... that is all

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Even toddlers can make themselves cereal if the milk is in a small enough container that they can lift it.

If their mother won't take care of them, maybe you should work on teaching them to care for themselves as much as possible.


Have you spoken to a a lawyer about the many moves? With this newest move and the kids being unhappy about it, could you go back to court and ask for custody on grounds of her unstable living situation? Would the judge be likely to take the kids wishes into consideration at their ages?
I think he wants her to do her part as a mother, not enable her.

A-Every single thing that has ever happened in your life is preparing you for a moment that is yet to come.
B-We know what we are, but know not what we may be
C-Never make the person in your present pay for the sins committed by people from your past
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post #87 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 06:05 PM
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Re: Wow... that is all

Here's the problem, @Chuck71: he cannot FORCE her to do her part as a mother. He may not like it, but his children have an unstable, self-centered, "victim" as a mother, rather than an equal female parent.

So as a parent, all @golfpanther can do is to teach his children how to recognize right from wrong and truth from lies, and how to respond to both right and wrong, and how to deal with the truth and lies. Yes, it svcks that children have to learn this, but no matter what machinations he goes through, he will never be able to manipulate her into "being a good mom." She just ISN'T and we may not like it, and we may vigorously disagree with her, but it is REALITY. The kids will need to be taught how to deal with REALITY.

@golfpanther if it were me, I'd keep the kids at my own house as much as humanly possible, even if you aren't getting CS or even if it's more than the divorce decree as long as it doesn't make waves. Yes, you will end up paying her as if the kids were at her house X days even though they are at your house, and that svcks, but they are your children and when they are with you, they are CARED FOR!! Beyond that, you can't have them with you all the time, so you are going to have to teach them how to fend for themselves to some degree. Now, they may not be that old, but even little ones can learn to open a pop-tart and put the straw in a juice box. Make sense? This is not "enabling her" --hey you can't stop her or start her no matter what you do! LOL--but it is teaching your children how to look out for themselves when they are with her. Teach them to brush their own teeth, take their own bath, change their own clothes, and eat something easy for breakfast, lunch and dinner (pop tarts, sandwich, ramen noodles). That way they at least get some minimum because they CARE FOR THEMSELVES. If she provides more, as we all hope, great. If she does not, they are at least able to survive.


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post #88 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 06:19 PM
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Re: Wow... that is all

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I think he wants her to do her part as a mother, not enable her.
Uh-huh. BTDT w exH after we split. He remarried and had two children with his new wife. He's such a poor parent the kids from his current marriage have been in foster care, for the 2nd time, for the last year and a half.

OP can't make his exW be a decent mother. If she won't properly care for the kids during her parenting time, then the kids will have to learn to care for themselves as much as possible.

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #89 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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If I sound fearful, it isn't due to any lingering feelings of love.

It's because every time I have let my guard down the past 3 years to her, I've gotten raked over the coals in return.

She will lie, often about the dumbest stuff. And will lie about the kids. And lie to the kids.

It's like I move towards the middle and in return she just holds firm and doesn't give an inch. She will take whatever I have to offer and give me nothing in return.

The ongoing gaslighting, lies, blame shifting, etc... is why I don't want to deal with her. It's the constant mindfnck that I can't handle.

Sure if there is 2 people there are bound to be misunderstandings. But this is one that expects me to eat whatever sh1t she cares to give out and is 100% unaccountable for anything.

I cannot open the door to that, even the slightest. It needs to remain shut.
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post #90 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 06:37 PM
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Re: Wow... that is all

Act accordingly.......

A-Every single thing that has ever happened in your life is preparing you for a moment that is yet to come.
B-We know what we are, but know not what we may be
C-Never make the person in your present pay for the sins committed by people from your past
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