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13K views 126 replies 23 participants last post by  Lilac23 
#1 ·
Hi everyone.

Husband and I reconciled after an almost year-long separation. We have been living together for almost 4 months now. It's him, myself and our 3 year old daughter.

Reconciliation has not been easy, there are ups and downs. I am in individual counselling to deal with resentment and the fallout of arguments, as well as to help me make a decision about whether I should divorce him or stay together. Counselling has helped me see that, for now, staying together is the option that will cause the least amount of damage to my daughter. My counsellor is a divorced mom of 2 and she focuses a lot on how my daughter is affected if we argue etc. which I really appreciate.

Husband and I have made progress but it's because I just let a lot of things go. My stress levels were sky-high, causing health problems and I decided to focus on my health rather than what he should/shouldn't be doing.

He still spends A LOT of time with his biological family. Tuesday I watched a movie after work so he went to his mom's. Wednesday I visited my mom so he was at his mom's. Today he calls and asks me if it's OK to have dinner at his mom's because "she invited him for a special dinner". This is on top of the fact that they see him every day (he commutes to work/from work with his siblings and spends an hour after work with them until I come home). And he also is there for a full day every weekend with our daughter.

I'm just getting stressed out, you know? I'm sad. Because we had an argument. I told him, your mom should realize you have a family of your own and we need to spend time together...he got offended. He said he'd come home but I don't want to spend dinner with an angry person who I am also angry at! I also realize that it's NOT his mom's fault, it's his, for not drawing boundaries with his family. His mom can ask him to come over every night...he should know not to and communicate it to her.

We are so different. I don't want to be the wife who asks him to spend less time with his mom/siblings...but if I don't tell him it's bothering me or it's wrong, he'll keep doing it and nothing will improve. But I'm so terrified of the effect a divorce would have on my daughter. When he's at work, or he leaves for groceries, she cries to go with him because she's so attached to him. This is aside from the emotional trauma TO ME of divorcing someone I care a lot about.

As for his family, I have "gotten over" the fact that they do not want a relationship with me and realized that they hurt me so much the first time around, WHY ON EARTH would I allow them to hurt me a second time around? So we don't keep in touch. I only hear about them through my husband or daughter and I don't plan on building a relationship with them again.
 
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#2 ·
Hi everyone.

Husband and I reconciled after an almost year-long separation. We have been living together for almost 4 months now. It's him, myself and our 3 year old daughter.

Reconciliation has not been easy, there are ups and downs. I am in individual counselling to deal with resentment and the fallout of arguments, as well as to help me make a decision about whether I should divorce him or stay together. Counselling has helped me see that, for now, staying together is the option that will cause the least amount of damage to my daughter. My counsellor is a divorced mom of 2 and she focuses a lot on how my daughter is affected if we argue etc. which I really appreciate.

Husband and I have made progress but it's because I just let a lot of things go. My stress levels were sky-high, causing health problems and I decided to focus on my health rather than what he should/shouldn't be doing.

He still spends A LOT of time with his biological family. Tuesday I watched a movie after work so he went to his mom's. Wednesday I visited my mom so he was at his mom's. Today he calls and asks me if it's OK to have dinner at his mom's because "she invited him for a special dinner". This is on top of the fact that they see him every day (he commutes to work/from work with his siblings and spends an hour after work with them until I come home). And he also is there for a full day every weekend with our daughter.

I'm just getting stressed out, you know? I'm sad. Because we had an argument. I told him, your mom should realize you have a family of your own and we need to spend time together...he got offended. He said he'd come home but I don't want to spend dinner with an angry person who I am also angry at! I also realize that it's NOT his mom's fault, it's his, for not drawing boundaries with his family. His mom can ask him to come over every night...he should know not to and communicate it to her.

We are so different. I don't want to be the wife who asks him to spend less time with his mom/siblings...but if I don't tell him it's bothering me or it's wrong, he'll keep doing it and nothing will improve. But I'm so terrified of the effect a divorce would have on my daughter. When he's at work, or he leaves for groceries, she cries to go with him because she's so attached to him. This is aside from the emotional trauma TO ME of divorcing someone I care a lot about.

As for his family, I have "gotten over" the fact that they do not want a relationship with me and realized that they hurt me so much the first time around, WHY ON EARTH would I allow them to hurt me a second time around? So we don't keep in touch. I only hear about them through my husband or daughter and I don't plan on building a relationship with them again.
I really do hate to say this (seriously, I do), but I just don't see how this can be sustainable in the longterm.

Sorry.

:(
 
#3 ·
Neither do I. :(

But I do know couples where one of the spouses has cut off all contact with the other spouse's family. And they've managed to stay together albeit painfully. I don't want that for us, though. I don't want to be known as the evil wife who cannot get along with his family...and I don't want him to have that constant pain in his life. Yes it's his doing but now I'm either going to have to deal with it somehow, or split up from him. I am so angry at him for putting us in this situation.
 
#4 ·
Oh Orange, this is sad. It sounds like he's gone right back to the same behavior that caused the separation in the first place-and you're left with just trying not to feel resentful because of it.

The only progress in this relationship I see is that his family is not in your home-which is good, but that's no way to sustain a marriage. How long is this going to last?

I'm a single mom-although I will say mine are older, teens. Its not the way I wanted to parent when I gave birth to them, but honestly we are just fine. Happy, healthy, well-adjusted, goofy at times. There's no acting up at school, drug-use, inappropriate friends or relationships. They're good. So keep that in mind. We're here for you.

And personally, I don't give a damn what anyone thinks of me. I know who I am.
 
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#7 · (Edited)
Yes, I am trying not to feel resentful of all his behaviour. When I found out that he is still commuting with his siblings, it really hurt our reconciliation. He'd moved in already and things were going well until then.

It helps me a lot to know that you have kids who are well adjusted and happy. I am sure that I can raise my daughter to be well adjusted and happy if I split from my husband - it would be hard for her at first but overall, with time, I think she'd be fine. But the problem is, I want more kids. I want her to have siblings. And I highly doubt that I will want to get re-married and have kids with someone else. My counsellor says she does a lot of therapy for blended families - that they come with their own set of problems. So I feel like I should just stay with my husband and eventually have more kids, and if we're not happy, I can leave him later? But this causes me a lot of turmoil in itself. I don't want to have another child with him being the way he is right now. I feel like my life is on hold - having more kids is on hold, buying a house is on hold. I'm in limbo. The alternative is to split from him, deal with the trauma of a divorce and live as a single mom with my daughter and never re-marry. I'm 31. I don't think I can trust anyone else enough to get married again...at 31, can I resign to being alone forever?

I'm also at a "weak" point emotionally. Our 1 year split did a lot of damage to me emotionally. I don't know if I am strong enough right now to handle my daughter crying after her dad, or him not dropping her back to me on time, or me feeling lonely, or me feeling guilty about breaking his heart, or me feeling bad that people are talking about me. I'm scared of having to go back to supporting my family on 1 income again. I'm stressed and unhappy at work, stressed and sometimes unhappy at home (it's not always bad but - like I said - it's because I let things slide). I feel like my in laws didn't like me, lately I've been having trouble with one of my coworkers so I feel like my coworker doesn't like me, but most importantly, I don't like myself. I'm bitter, controlling, angry, sad. Not every day - we have great days out together as a little family - but enough days to make me not like myself.
 
#6 ·
I'm so sorry to hear that you are in this situation. I had SERIOUS in-law issues of my own so I know what a bad spot this puts you in. It seems to me that your H is using your daughter's close relationship to him and the in-law's as a way to manipulate you since he knows you don't want to hurt her and your leaving would do that. I think that I would limit the time she spends with them if you can. This could end up being something that draws you and your daughter away from each other. Your H knows what he can get away with and he will try more and more to make you seem like the "bad parent" if this goes on. My wife did the same thing with me. The only way this resolved itself was that we were forced to move out of the area.
 
#8 ·
Thank you for your compassion. I am grateful to everyone on TAM who has helped me in my journey so far.

Right now, my daughter sees her dad's side of the family 1 day a week. If we split, he could potentially have her for half the time, or at least 2 days a week (sleep over). Splitting from him means less turmoil at home for me, but she'd be with them MORE not less. :(

He will never move out of province. He's not even willing to live in another part of town away from them, let alone out of province. I suggested it once and he'd never agree to it.

He thinks that within a couple of years, our relationship will improve and then we can work on building a relationship with his family. Of course, this means I do all the heavy lifting - they won't. I'm not going to put myself in that situation. I've already told him that I don't plan on ever rebuilding a relationship with them...but I'm sure he still hopes I will.
 
#9 ·
I'm sorry I forget some of your original story so you may have already said... have you tried marriage counseling? Is he willing?

Does he know a couple needs 15 hours of COUPLE TIME per week - not family time - to build intimacy? I don't see how you can get 15 hours a week together like that.

He leaves instead of joining you watching a movie? That's kind of sad.

Could you explain the 15 hours required and tell him that he can spend any extra time with his family as long as he plans 15 hours with YOU (not just watching TV or sleeping but engaged in activities and conversation, not housework and errands) AND he gives you weekends except for... [fill in a concession] - concession being Sunday dinner with his family or take daughter over Saturday afternoon and come home right after dinner, etc.
 
#10 · (Edited)
We try to spend one weekend day together as a family, and on weekdays he's usually home from 6pm to bedtime. So on the surface, the schedule is fine.
It's the other stuff.

Since he's moved in, he's packed his stuff up and left about 5 times. First 4 times I demanded him to - last 2 times, he did it on his own. The first time, I asked him to come back. The other 4 times, I told him I want a divorce - but he cried etc. long story short I let him back in. As if that isn't dysfunctional enough, this basically means his clothes are in a suitcase and stuffed into 2 bags. When I tell him to put it up in the closet, because it's offensive to both of us for him to live that way, he doesn't see the urgency. He says "OK I'll do it" and 3 weeks go by before he makes any effort to put them away. So to me, it feels like he's treating our home as a vacation place - he is just waiting for the next time we argue and he packs up to leave.

He is helpful with household chores, picking up groceries and helps in the kitchen. BUT, he has done absolutely nothing around our home. I mean every single dish, chair, carpet, etc. is stuff I've bought and I've taken the initiative with. I hired a handyman to put up 2 mirrors in our bedroom, the guy did a bad job and we ended up asking him to just patch it up again. I have to repair the wall. This happened 2 months ago and it's still not repaired. I'm so tired from all the cleaning, cooking, working, etc. that I have not set aside time to fix it myself. He has shown zero interest in taking initiative to fix it, even though he knows it bothers me. Again, I think it's because he doesn't see our condo as his home yet. Just a temporary place he's staying.

We go out to the movies sometimes. But he doesn't go to weddings or engagement parties with me, won't go to my company Christmas party, doesn't invite me to his family gatherings (obviously because of my issues with his siblings). The reason he doesn't go to weddings/parties/Christmas get together is because he's religious and doesn't want to be around drinking and partying. (These are VERY tame events I go to, there is no wild drinking or partying, it's all very civilized, but he still doesn't go.) So I end up going alone.

He pays the rent. I pay any other extra bills (there are many). But I cannot even bring myself to discuss with him, buying a home and moving. He will want to move close to his mom - I want to stay as far away from them as I can. He doesn't trust me with his money and says he'll only contribute the same amount that I do, toward a home. He has put all his savings into a joint account with his brother AFTER we reconciled...we argued about this and it became another serious issue and nearly ended our marriage. He says he's transferred the funds out of the joint account in to an account only in his name but I haven't seen any proof, and don't trust his word. I basically have just "let it go" for my daughter's sake. She is going to cry after him and I will feel like a horrible mother and all-round horrible person.

Last night when he came home I was really upset...I basically just withdraw when I'm that upset. I don't talk to him or want to look at him. All of a sudden I felt REALLY depressed and couldn't stop crying. I don't know why I do this...I wish I could talk to him calmly. But I either withdraw, or we have a heated conversation. It's probably because I have realized he has not changed and it's on me to accept him or split. I'm scared a divorce will plunge me into a deep depression.

I have pleaded with him to go to marriage counselling - he won't. He says marriage counsellors are secular, and he'll only agree to a religious counsellor but that's useless to me...we went to one 3 times and it was a waste of time. We just argued, the religious counsellor gave a lot of positive advice but my husband ignored all of it. So I'm going to a professional therapist on my own.
 
#11 ·
well, seeing how your home life is, and the miserable future you think you should endure its no wonder you are miserable. Orange, you are miserable.

You have two paths, find out someway to accept the status quo (you are not doing that or you would not be so miserable, that is not acceptance), or leave.

And boundaries, remember those? Where are yours? If he wants to live in YOUR home, there are certain behaviors you can demand. If you want to stay in the marriage there is certain conduct you can demand. It doesn't mean your demanding it will get him to comply, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying-this is not acceptable and show him the door until it changes.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Is it miserable? It is, isn't it? It must be, because I'm unhappy and acting out.

I do communicate boundaries to him. I have told him - such and such is unacceptable, don't do it if you want to be in a relationship with me, else our marriage will likely end. He tells me I am being controlling and that everything has to be my way or the highway. I don't know what to say to that.

I have shown him the door many times (kicked him out about 4 times now). He shows up at the door the next day and it's an hour-long session of drama, crying, etc. trying to convince me to give it another chance. He tells me "no issue is too big to overcome". And deep down, I'm not sure I want to end the marriage. So we are still together.
 
#13 ·
So you can "verbalize" your boundaries, but not "enforce" them. Verbalizing is good, because without them there's no way others can know how we need them to interact. Now about the enforcement, that needs some work. If he has come back crying, promising to change more than once, with no change-why are you accepting that? His words are empty. He has to show you, prove to you that he is willing to change. So the next time it happens, have a list of things you want him to do around the house. If he wants to stay in your home, he has to act like it. You should not be running a B&B

And of course he would say you are controlling. The thing is the only thing you can control is you. Obviously, you can't control him, but insisting on reasonable boundaries is not controlling-its self-preservation.

You have been trying so hard.
 
#14 ·
Pluto, the thing is, he has made changes. For example, he used to go early on Saturday morning with my daughter, to his mom's house for breakfast! I told him it makes me feel lonely, and I have to clean on my own. He felt bad and changed that around in a few weeks. He now stays for breakfast, helps me clean (a little, and only sometimes) and then goes.

So there is some progress - but I guess, not enough. Eliminating his family from his life (which he shares with me) is unreasonable. But also, the amount of time he spends with them would annoy the hell out of ANY woman. So we have yet to meet in the middle.
 
#15 ·
I advised against letting him back in your life because I didn't think he would cut ties with his family enough for you to be happy. I wish I had been wrong but it doesn't sound like it.

The thing is -- he has always felt you would change your mind about them. He won't ever give that idea up. His biological family will always come first. Yes, he obviously wants to be with you and your daughter. But he apparently feels he's compromised enough and now he thinks it's your turn. He's also very good at convincing you to take him back each time so he has that going for him (and he knows it).

My advice is the same as it was. If you want to be with him then you have to accept that you are second to them and you will be second as long as his family's around. Unfortunately. Because that's who he is.
 
#17 ·
Orange, what I'm about to say I really do say with the utmost compassion. What exactly would you feel resentful about? He's made very clear to you who he is and where you fall on the priorities list. You choose to accept it. Whether it's for your daughter or because you don't want to be alone, it really doesn't matter because at the end of the day you have to own your choices. You've made a choice to accept him back knowing full well who he is and what his priorities are.

He does want to be married but only on his terms. So if you decide to stick around, which it certainly is your right to do, you'll have to accept and make peace with what he offers.
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#18 ·
Hi everyone,

I've read all your replies and thought about it.

OpenMinded, you are right that he has not changed his behaviour "enough" for me to be happy. He has changed a lot, but the thing I need most right now is for him to distance himself from his family and focus on us as a new family unit. He has not done that and never will - not unless death or some natural disaster occurs. He is just as attached to them as ever. And, I am left with a few choices:

1. Try to change him. (People don't change.)
2. Accept it. (I'm trying to do this.)
3. Leave. (This tears me up. I don't know if I can handle my daughter crying after him and all the guilt I'd feel from every angle.)

Lifeistooshort...this brings me to your point. I guess I have to either choose option 2 or option 3. I could accept the way things are...if I knew I'd never have to deal with his family again. But knowing I have to eventually deal with them in the future if I stay married to my husband, makes me really anxious and hesitant and I just have not forgiven them. If I wasn't married to him, I'd only have to see them at my daughter's wedding...but I know my husband wants us to be a "happy family" again in a couple years. Not happening. And my resistance will make me look like the bad guy.

I had a long talk with him this weekend. It was very painful. But I did tell him how I feel, and that he hasn't even really moved IN yet so it's no wonder we're in so much turmoil. I also told him I'm not going to put any effort in rebuilding a relationship with his family...if they want one, they'd have to take the initiative from now on.

I wish I had a normal husband. Does anybody have a normal husband? Does anybody have in laws they don't hate?
 
#19 ·
If it helps, my wife and I are separated for 1 year. Wife practically hates my side of the family because of ways she was judged and treated by them in the past. I've always been very sheltered and babied by my parents so I naturally felt they were a "safe zone" whenever things in my life where feeling wrong.

I have changed that over time, on account of trying to make peace with my wife, that wasn't the right reason and I grew a lot of internal resentment for her about it.

After she left (due to me having a EA) and I realized the gravity of my actions and decisions, and how much my wife really means to me and the burning desire I have for her to be in my future... NOTHING could keep me from trying to win her heart back. Family, friends, money, pride... whatever it is, simply no contest.

If we are ever together, this doesn't mean I would never have no contact with my family, I would insist on at least having some level of contact with them, especially as my father is old and has quickly developing Alzheimer's. My mother will always have a special place in my heart, but I've realized that me being a MAN is me being my OWN MAN, not for my wife and not for my family or some religion.

But my wife will always have my highest priority and consideration for any decisions I make going forward, should we ever reconnect and embark on a new relationship together.

Husbands and men do change. Sometimes we need to be shocked so hard to our cores that we have to reevaluate everything we've been doing (or not doing). I believe you can facilitate this shock as my wife did with me. She warned me of the consequences of my actions and that she'd be gone if I did not change. When she actually followed through with it I wasn't too worried at first. As she continued resolutely and found her own interests and independence from me, then I started my questioning and the reinventing of myself as a man and person.

We're currently still separated, but we date, spend weekends together and I remain completely hopeful that we will reconcile into some new, exciting relationship in the future.

And let me repeat, that's what I've learned that I want above all else... family, friends, selfish desires. It is possible.

Hi everyone,
1. Try to change him. (People don't change.)
2. Accept it. (I'm trying to do this.)
3. Leave. (This tears me up. I don't know if I can handle my daughter crying after him and all the guilt I'd feel from every angle.)
 
#24 ·
He used to disregard my feelings. I would come to him with a lot of concerns and he'd just pat me on the shoulder and say, "Let's go sit downstairs with my mom and everyone." That's such a horrible thing to do, it made me feel completely ignored and unimportant! The rest of the time, he'd yell at me. Yes, he definitely felt that he deserved respect as the husband, even if he was being disrespectful.

I say "used to" because now, he listens to my concerns. He's trying. He realized he almost lost me and our daughter and it's probably in his best interest to follow through with some of my requests.

But it's still not enough.

He would not be willing to cut anyone out, just to be with me.

Are you saying that I should show my emotions (like fear, concern etc.) without the anger?
 
#26 · (Edited)
Well, speaking from experience, there are two HUUUUUGE factors in how well I responded to my wife's expressing of her emotion:
  1. The timing of her expression (was it at a family gathering or church function)?
  2. Her tone of voice, body language, level of anger

Regarding the timing, a lot of times she'd come to me as "THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED NOW!" and a majority of the time I'd feel like it was the first time I was hearing what ever she was expressing to me. I didn't even have time to process the situation let alone how in hell it could have gotten her so angry.

There's nothing wrong with being more patient when a situation is bad and AFTERWARDS when you've calmed down and your husband doesn't feel like he's surrounded on all sides by people, family and needing to keep up an appearance of calm or "everything's ok", then you could privately say, "hey, something important's on my mind and either now or sometime soon I'd like to talk about it." He doesn't feel cornered or caught off guard by the current environment or your demeanor.

Which brings us to the demeanor. Just imagine if your husband had hurt emotions, he was worried or anxious, but when he came to you, all you saw was him mad and angry. You'd probably think "he's mad and angry at me over something I didn't know was a problem! His face is red, his fists are balled, he can't control himself! How dare he talk to me that way and expect that I would listen or care!". So now imagine he came to you and said "hunny, you're acting this way and it's making me feel anxious or what you did earlier in the night hurt my feelings, can I talk to you about it?"

How would YOU feel in those different scenarios? Recently when texting my wife about something that was upsetting me, I was initially angry and I wanted to text her about it BECAUSE I was angry, but instead I put on some angry music, got my anger out and realized I was just using my anger to protect how I felt, which was ignored. I wasn't really angry, my feelings were hurt.

So I texted her and explained what happened, how I thought she would treat me versus how I felt she actually treated me, and that the results hurt my feelings because I felt she didn't think about me. She replied with a loving, understanding text. If I had sent an initial angry text, there's no way on earth she would have been receptive.

And I wasn't suggesting he cut someone out, per se. But over time as your husband changes, as the marriage dynamic changes and communication improves, he may find that he is able to alter the way he is with his family so that he can still be a son and sibling AND a husband. As others have mentioned that might mean he alters how much time he spends with them versus others.

But don't expect any of this to be a quick fix. You're not racing towards a resolution, those fixes never work. This process can take time, years even and you have to be patient, strong and loving as my wife has been. Your husband will see this and if along the way communication is good and you're BOTH working on your character flaws and handling of each other, he might just find a healthier balance between his biological family and his family with you.
 
#25 ·
Sorry to read this story OP - feel for you! My gut reaction was strong because I find something inherently weak about people who have to be around their family 'all of the time'....family is so very important but he seems to have forgotten he is creating one of his own with you and your daughter. The fact that his mom and siblings would not wonder what is up with him being there all the time without you (meaning, his mom in particular would/should be encouraging him to take care of his family first instead of focusing on hers) tells me their hold on each other is a bit overdone...he does not sound like a man to me, sorry if that is harsh. He made a commitment to you and now you have a child together, including his family (and yours) is natural and would be something all of you probably want, but the extent and time he spends with them is hardly different from the guys who never move out of their parents basement...

In the end, his ties to them are so strong based on what you have described that I really don't see a turn around in the future, which I know hurts to hear. But, how will your daughter grow up? Will she think it is normal that mom is excluded all the time? Also, your expectations around the house are normal for any rational adult. I think you married a man-child sadly....

Best of luck to you and I hope you have the confidence to do what you need to for your health and the health of your daughter - true, a divorce will impact her but she will learn how to be a confident and strong women from you and will no doubt understand as she gets older....lest she potentially repeat your mistakes unconsciously....
 
#27 ·
Survive, I really appreciate your feedback. The way I deliver a message is just as important as the words. I tried to put that in to practice tonight as we had an important conversation about something that has been bothering me for a long time.

The thing is, he has made a lot of changes - the changes being, he sold the home he lived in with them, and moved in with me. That's it. There are no other changes. I have been an angry resentful wife most of the time ... and at other times, taken a deep breath and really tried to control myself, been patient and loving. But for whatever reason, although things have improved, they're just not enough for us to be a stable family unit. I'm really glad that you are communicating well with your wife, I'm certain she sees your behaviour and it resonates positively with her. Definitely keep doing that...as a woman, I can attest to the fact that a calm, patient and loving man is ideal. Be that ideal for her.

McDean, thank you for your feedback as well. I'm really sad to say, I think you are right. I married someone who was not ready for responsibilities of being a husband and father...he thought I would simply be an extension of the family he already had (mom/siblings), someone who wouldn't demand much and just assimilate to their way of living in their home. Let me tell you what happened tonight.

Lately, I have been very bothered by the fact that he leaves our home really early (5:45am), drives to his mom's house, sometimes has breakfast there or packs his breakfast, prays together with them and then leaves for work with his brother and sister. They all work in the same part of town so commute to and from work. Mind you - they used to do this when we used to all live together and I disliked it a lot but couldn't do much about it. But when we reconciled, I thought that would be the break I was waiting for ... I was waiting for him to become an independant adult and start commuting on his own. Turns out, he'd rather drive out of his way to get to them. I've been asking him lately to eat breakfast here, and pray here at our home, then go to work. We argued about it tonight. He said I was being controlling, whereas I (calmly and respectfully) told him that he's simply showing me he has not changed, has not put the focus on "us" as a family unit, and I'm not being controlling, I'm asking for reasonable boundaries. I want him to become independant. He said I'm acting really jealous of his family...I said of course I am. "You chose them over us (daughter and I) for a year, and now that you've moved in you still put them first, yes I feel hurt and jealous." He didn't respond well to that. He said I'm also not following reasonable boundaries he's set. When I asked him what those are, he said that I go to weddings, engagements etc. when he'd prefer me to not go. My mouth dropped open. Yes he's a really religious guy but this is taking it too far. He doesn't go to weddings with me which is hard enough on me, I feel lonely and out of place so I usually go with my sister. I told him, I will continue going to events and when our daughter grows up, so will she. That's what did it. Not the family attachment, not the resentment about the past, not his inability to detach from others and focus on us. It's his religiosity. I'm afraid he'll destroy my child's future by expecting her to stay home and not socialize. I don't want that for her!

Also, he kept raising his voice. He just wouldn't stop. We live in a condo and I kept asking him to stop yelling because people might hear. Also, we shouldn't be yelling in front of our daughter. For about 10 minutes he ignored all my requests for him to lower his voice, so I asked him to leave. He packed up all his things - I mean everything - in to bags, left his key and he's gone. Off to his mom's.

I feel cold. Unfeeling. Just dumbfounded. I know that he will call tomorrow and want to come back, he will apologize, cry, tell me our daughter deserves siblings. I'll cry too. But I cannot handle the idea of a father imposing unreasonable restrictions on his daughter, the way my father did to me, and yelling or criticizing her if she doesn't follow through. Also, this whole business of packing up and leaving every time we have a big argument is childish, damaging and I need for the cycle to end. It needs to stop.

Other times, I would wait for him to text me the next day so we could talk about what happened. I don't want to talk this time. I re-arranged some furniture and found some stuff belonging to him that he forgot...I put them into a bag and he can pick them up when he visits our daughter.

I am starting to feel an emotion...fear. I'm afraid. I don't want this to happen and at the same time, I don't want him to come back and the cycle to re-start. I don't know if I'm doing the right thing. But I do know that the way he wants to live and the way I want to live are very different...today we are arguing about his family, tomorrow we'll be arguing over serious issues about raising our kids. Did we overreact with this argument?
 
#28 ·
He is who he is. And who he is, unfortunately, is not who you want him to be. Yes, tomorrow he will cry and beg you -- again -- to take him back. If you do, that pattern is very likely to continue because he knows it works. He's good at manipulating you and he is well aware of it. He plans to live his life as he chooses and he expects you to eventually abide by all his wishes. There's a religious element of control that's obvious. And that's unlikely to change.

The problem is that your daughter is getting older. Children are never as clueless as their parents think. She will become aware of those arguments and what they mean and especially as they relate to how her father views her mother's place in the world. What kind of message will she take away.
 
#32 ·
My counsellor has stressed that we need to protect our daughter from our verbal conflicts, because it will scare her. So when he raises his voice I remind him to consider the fact she's there. Or we wait until she's asleep.

But yesterday he just wouldn't stop yelling. It's not the first time and it won't be the last. Our daughter was quiet but I could see she was afraid. Finally, she got up really close to me and said, "I'm scared." It broke my heart. She doesn't deserve that.
 
#29 ·
A healthy social life is important in a child's development. The better a child can communicate, interact, affects mental health, brain connectivity, and there are other benefits.

Not to mention you want to raise an intelligent, independent person, someone unlike the members of his family.

Remember what I said about change, it takes a long time to effect it. What you had was the phase where he tried pleasing you to keep the attachment. Love is a drive, and we take actions to keep it. Once he feels safe, he feels less motivated, and without real help, he will not change. Your relationship will continue on this cycle of dysfunction. You will be drawn time and time again to the good and wait for the bad periods to detach. Not a healthy environment for either you or your daughter.

You may love him, but that does not mean that he is good for either of you.

I personally think you should detach, and not let him back until you either move on, or he starts seeing a therapist. Even then, he has to sustain it for at least a year.

If your goal is life stability and fulfillment, you really need to take a look at what your partner is capable of in a relationship. If your goal is to stay married to him, you have to take the negative that comes along. Again, love does not mean correct. You can love a narcissist for an example and not receive the love in return. If it is not giving him his way, then it will be constant fights to establish boundaries. And he has a propensity to push that.

Will it be another long term separation before he comes crawling back again? You do need to have a line in the sand somewhere or you will keep allowing this to occur and your fear is holding you back. Imagine if your daughter learn this type of behavior from you. At least without him, you can start by not being in constant bad moods. Then, at least you can limit your focus to you and your daughter. He is taking away mental and emotional energy that you can place elsewhere.

If you separate from him again, take the steps to make your own life better. His influence on your life is not exactly positive.

Honestly, you both want different things and you both are trying to force each other into the mold you want each other to be. You cannot accept him for who he is and the same goes for him. Logically, you have to let him go. BTW, what you want is healthier over all since the goal of life is for offspring to become independent. If you allow your fear to control yoour actions, then you take blame for how your daughter turns out, why your own life is the way it is, because I promise you this, he seems incapable of breaking the cycle. How much time must go by, and now you have to start the detachment portion again. Until you are ready to follow through, all your anger and complaining will be just noise. And what I mean is five years down the road, ten years, you will still be stuck on a message forum, venting your frustration. And as your daughter gets older, this will be her norm, drama.
 
#33 ·
I woke up this morning and it took a minute or so for me to remember what happened yesterday, and that my husband wasn't there. I felt sad and needed support, so I logged in and saw your message. You are right that all my anger and complaining is just noise, until/unless I take action to stop the cycle. You were right months ago when you said that if I take him back, he will just leave each time we have a big argument. If I stay with him and accept him the way he is, it will be unhappy cohabitation...and our daughter might end up hating both of us for the constant drama. Or she might look at me as the controlling wife who won't just let her dad be who he needs to be. Or she might blame me for staying with him despite the conflict.

Today, I feel light. I feel as if a big weight has been lifted from my shoulders. This doesn't make me a bad person...it makes me realize how unhappy I have been!
 
#30 ·
You've got to remember that men and women communicate VERY differently and we have VERY different needs. For many years I didn't understand this fully, and my marriage with my wife suffered enormously. A few thoughts that might be helpful for you...

1. We men don't understand women to begin with. They like to complain a lot, about everything they can think of, large and small. My wife can get just as angry/worked up over a funny look she thinks the neighbor gave her (a minor issue, if it's a real issue at all), as she can over telling me that she wants to quit her job. (A major issue) We also know that women are very emotional, and a massive over-the-top problem one day is no big deal a day later. PMS is mixed in there somewhere as well... We guys like to fix problems too, but VERY often it would seem that women don't want our help with fixing the problems they complain about. They just want us to listen, and nod our head. This confuses and bewilders us to no end. We don't complain about a problem to someone (our spouse or otherwise) unless we are asking for their help, or want them to solve the problem. Ultimately, all of this trains a lot of us men to not trust our interpretation of our wives reactions, and to some degree, take their complaints with a grain of salt, because we don't know how serious of an issue it is to her, if she actually wants us to do anything about it or not, or if it's not going to be important to her anyway five minutes later.

This is why you see so often here on TAM stories of men coming here saying, "Holy cow! My wife just said she's leaving me/kicking me out/filing for divorce! This came completely out of the blue!" In truth, their wives probably tried to get through to them for a very long time, but felt ignored or that they didn't care. Really, it's a communication issue. If I'm sick and tired of my wife leaving dirty clothes all the floor, I'm going to tell her I'm tired of picking up her dirty clothes and she needs to be responsible/respectful and use the hamper. But if my wife is sick and tired of picking up my dirty clothes left on the floor, she's going to try to think of a way to "relay the message" to me in a passive roundabout way. She might say, "Ouch my foot really hurts, I tripped over your clothes on the floor when I got up this morning..." or "Our room is always a mess!" or something similar. Then they call us thick-skulled when we don't get the message, haha. We men need DIRECT communication.

2. I think you also have a problem with expectations. Expectations can ruin any marriage, easily, and will both spouses feeling like the other is crazily unreasonable. For instance, I bet your husband's parents (or one of them at least) were very accustomed to living with or nearby their parents when they became adults and got married and started their family. If they grow up constantly surrounded by their grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins, etc., then they are going to view that as completely normal, and anything else will be viewed as abnormal and unreasonable. For me, I grew up as a military brat living all over the country and the world. I saw my grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins once every few years. For my wife however, she and her family lived in the same town her whole life, and saw her extended family every week or so as a result. So she feels an extreme need to see her family frequently, and can't imagine moving away from them, while I have no desire whatsoever to do so many activities and visits with extended family. That was her expectation though, that's what she felt was normal, and I was being unreasonable by thinking she was with them too much, or that I didn't care about her by not wanting to tag along every time. It took us some time to figure out what the problem was, which is that we both have grown up with different ideas of what marriage is, what spousal roles should be, and understand that we need to respect our differences and control our expectations.

It might help for him to get some 3rd party perspectives for what is reasonable, whether from friends or a therapist. I think it's unreasonable for him to spend multiple days a week with his family, ESPECIALLY if they are not getting along with you.

3. This brings me to another concern, which Gus highlighted above. I don't see how your relationship will improve while his family is still relationally opposed to you AND while your husband allows it to some degree. When my wife and I separated, most members of my family really turned against her, which is probably not unusual at all. She's my wife however, so it's my responsibility to stand up for her and defend her, EVEN when she doesn't necessarily deserve it every given time. Especially when we decided to reconcile, I had to made crystal clear to my family and to my wife who my allegiance was to, which wasn't easy for them to take. Anytime they invited me over for dinner or for an activity, if my wife wasn't invited then I declined the invite, period. In my view, if I agreed to attend an event with them in which my wife was not invited, I was effectively telling her that they are more important to me than she is, and I'm supporting my family's hurtful position by giving them exactly what they want. They fought me on it, but I never budged. It's completely their choice if they don't want to put any effort into rebuilding their relationships with my wife, but it's equally my choice to not interact with them under those circumstances too. It took a year or so, but eventually they all came on board and they all get along great with my wife now, despite our rocky past.

Part two of that however, is that I also expected my wife to be extremely receptive to my family if/when they opened up to her. It would not be ok for her to cross her arms and demand that they come to her, apologize for anything, etc. If she wanted to be my wife again (vs. continue separated or get divorced, which were options of course) then she needed to respect my family as well and make every REASONABLE effort to get along with them and rebuild her relationships with them, when they are stepping forward and being reasonable as well. My concern here is that you seem to be indicating that you have no willingness to get along with them, or desire to rebuild relationships with them. I know it was important for our marriage that my wife wanted to rebuild that with my family, if they would cooperate, which they eventually did. I think you should WANT to try to reconnect with them, as long as they are being reasonable and meeting you half way as well. If they aren't, then it's not your fault and you can just hang back and wait, but I do think it would go a long way to improving your relationship with your husband to ensure that he knows that you ultimately WANT to rebuild that relationship with his family, and are willing to take any reasonable steps towards doing so. Honestly if he believes you are fully opposed to any future relationship with them, then it makes sense that he might choose to interact with them without you so much. I bet he might be more willing to push his family to move towards forgiveness as well if you indicated you were willing to meet them half way.

Ultimately, I think it's essential if the marriage is to survive long term, as in more than a couple years. Short term people will want to be stubborn, or will need time to "get over" the past, but if either party is 100% unwilling to work at it, then I think the marriage will be doomed.

4. Last thing, you guys needs to establish boundaries, obviously. You both need to sit down together (preferably with a therapist) and literally list what these boundaries will be, and hold both of you to them.
 
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#31 · (Edited)
cdbaker, thank you for taking time and putting a lot of thought in to your reply.

You mentioned my husband should probably get a 3rd party perspective from family or friends about what amount of visits to his family are "reasonable". He won't do this. He is only open to getting advice from his mother, brother and his uncle. His mother/brother are part of the problem (obviously) as they encourage him to come over even though he sees them every day. For example, he spent Tues. and Wedns. evening with them last week, and Thurs. he said his mom invited him for dinner. It hurt my feelings. I was upset at her but more upset at him for not declining.
His uncle is more "normal" and would give him the kind of advice I would give to a friend. But I've learnt not to rely on his family to help me.

You stood up for your wife when you decided to reconcile. You told your family, "she's my wife and where I'm invited, she must be invited." My husband does not do this. When we were married, living together with his family and everything was OK, he didn't do this either. He would go to family events with his mom/sister and not take me, even when I told him it hurt my feelings.

When we reconciled, I hate intense dislike toward his family and felt very hurt by them. But I decided to put all that aside, for my husband and daughter's sake, and turn a new leaf. I visited them. His mom was civil, his brother and sister acted as if I didn't exist. I was really offended. They did not meet me halfway. When we called to let them know we wanted to visit, my husband used my cell phone...we called literally 6 times with my phone and they did not pick up. Then he called using his phone and his mom picked up. She told him she was on the other line...but I highly doubt it. Then they told us they were going somewhere in the evening, so we visited them the next day. Long story short - I tried. They didn't. And haven't since. That's why I tell my husband, I will no longer make an effort to build a relationship with them unless they show that they want one. I am not going to go to them again, only to have them belittle me. If they reached out to me, I would not be unwilling to work with them. The problem is they have not reached out to me and most likely never will, and my husband is part of that...he has not asked them to be kind to me.

It might help to know why I dislike his family. We used to live with them, it was a toxic living situation and there were many hurt feelings on both sides. I kept asking my husband to move out and get our own place but he refused. His mom and brother expected us to live with them and completely ignored the issue even though I requested everyone to have a family meeting and talk about it. When we'd argue, my husband would scream at me in front of them...he didn't stand up for me when he saw them mistreating me. It was chaotic, toxic, totally unhealthy. I became depressed. One day our argument got so bad, because I decided that enough was enough and I yelled back when he yelled at me...so he tried to kick me out of the house. I left him the next day by packing up all my stuff and leaving while he was at work. He begged me to come back but I said - only if we no longer live with your family, I want our own place. He said he had a responsibility to his family...so we stayed apart for a year. He spent all his money on them. I truly and honestly believe his mom and sister would have been happy if we had gotten a divorce. Now that we are together, they still use every opportunity to take up his time and do not respect our need to focus on our reconciliation. But saying all this...I realize I didn't have an in law issue. I had (and still have) a husband issue. Because my husband could have prevented all this if we had gotten our own place a long time ago.

I have requested to go to counselling together many times. He's not open to it. So I go on my own.

If my husband was the type of man to stand up for his wife, who was brave enough to set limits with his family and take care of us as a family unit, we wouldn't have gotten separated in the first place.
 
#37 ·
I am not sure.

A transition to being separated for good, co-parenting our daughter and maintaining a positive friendship between us is ideal. I hope we can do that.

I'm afraid of when he will come back and cries or begs for me not to end the marriage. I hope I'll be strong. I'll have to be very strong, knowing I will not have my parents' emotional support this time around.

I'll keep my mouth shut, too. With the exception of this forum, my counsellor and my sister.
 
#39 ·
I would have all his things nicely packed and waiting. When he comes in have the "you know we were heading this way" talk and ask him to move out. I am sure he was expecting this at some point. He cant be that clueless.

Stay strong. Don't get emotional now, just state the facts and what you had expected and needed. Let him know while he did made an effort, it's not enough. It's time to move on. Be great parents to your daughter.

I wish you both good luck. I hope you finally get peace and happiness. At least, you wouldn't have to worry where he is at and why he is not home with you guys. Because he will be with mum and bro.
 
#40 ·
I just read your response, and here are a few more thoughts for you.

First, I wouldn't assume that things will never change, or that people can't change. They change if they want to change. His family probably doesn't want to change, but your husband might if the situation demands that it change, one way or the other. (For instance, if it's made clear to him that he can have a divorce and remain attached at the hip to his family, or he can have a loving wife and new family together, but not both simultaneously.)

Second, I wouldn't assume that your husband hasn't been trying to get them to open up to you and be nice. I know for me, I went to great lengths initially to try to get my family to be nice to my wife, treat her well, be more welcoming, etc. Our situation was a bit different, because both my wife and I were really bad spouses before we separated. (She cheated on me several times in rapid succession, and I was kind of an ******* husband) So in a sense, they had good, legitimate reasons for being so unhappy and unwelcoming towards my wife. From their perspective, she cheated on me, she hurt their son/brother, why should they welcome her back? I had to explain many times that we were both crappy spouses, and had forgiven each other, that she wanted to rebuild her relations with them, and it was up to them if they were willing to forgive and move on or not. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if your husband has tried to explain that to them as well.

The other important part of that however is that he would need to reinforce it. If they don't really like you, then they certainly don't care to spend time with you either, they naturally only want your husband to come over and spend time with them right? Doing so however is effectively him choosing them over you, and rewarding their indifference/negatively towards you by giving them what they want. So for him to do the right thing, he needs to make clear to them that they need to respect his wife if they want him involved in their lives, and that means also including you in everything he is asked to be involved with as well. This took my family a while to swallow, and I skipped a number of events because of it.

Meanwhile, I told my wife none of this, or as little as I could. I didn't want her to know that most members of my family didn't like her anymore or wanted nothing to do with her. I didn't want her to hear that, and I certainly didn't want her to know that events were taking place that we would normally be invited to but weren't because they were intentionally excluding her. I wouldn't have wanted her to feel bad or guilty for me missing things either for her sake. This went for our daughter as well, who would be invited to things but usually I didn't allow it unless all of us were invited. So I would say it's possible, POSSIBLE, that your husband could be in this situation?
 
#43 ·
I'm sorry to hear that you and your wife went through such difficult times, but I am glad that things are healed now and you were able to move on. :)

I can't guess at what my husband has/hasn't told his family. I have no contact with them. From what my husband has told me or shown me, he has never asked them to respect me. If he sees disrespect from them, he ignores it or (if I complain) he makes an excuse for them.

There are no consequences to his family if they disrespect me. I say this with confidence and experience from the past.
 
#55 ·
Oh Orange, I'm sorry you are going through this. I know you'd love the situation to change. Its frustrating because so many posters here see that constructive strides could be made with the right marital counselor, but as you say, you can't force him to go.

Of course it is possible that your H may change his thinking with this separation. Could I suggest that you make MC a condition to any attempts at future R, even an overight.....just to see his daughter. That's not being mean. That is providing a stable structure for your child. His coming and going is confusing and it will make this all more confusing for her.
 
#56 · (Edited)
He's still at his mom's. He did call me just now asking if I wanted to join him and our daughter at Chuck e Cheese's after work. But I'm working late and it's too far to drive after work.

I know he misses me. I miss him a lot too, it's lonely and super quiet at home. But I think we have to make marriage counselling a condition of getting back together...I agree with that. Secular marriage counselling with a professional.

Not only is his coming and going confusing my daughter, it's confusing us as a couple. It's not a stable relationship.

Like, I love him...I really really do. But he needs to man-up. When he does, I'll stop being so afraid all the time...it's fear that makes me controlling of him. Fear that he'll leave us again, fear that his family will take him away again, fear that we can't build a future together, fear that I'll just give up on him anyway if he doesn't change so "why bother".

My coworker recently told me that we have a tendency to put a really tight clasp on our marriages when things are rocky...when really we should be loosening our grip and letting the other person get room to breathe and be themselves. It's true but I'm battling constant jealousy of the amount of time he spends with his mom/siblings...it is so hard. I keep thinking "he should prove to me that he loves and cares about putting our relationship back on track by focusing on us, but he's so busy taking care of his mom/siblings all the time. It shouldn't be 50/50 at this point, it should be 90/10 in our favour. But it's not."
 
#57 ·
Orange, I feel for all of you.

I don't think he will be the man you want. It is too ingrained in him, the relationship he has with his family. If he were to stop seeing them so much, it will affect him negatively.

You have got to learn how to be with him but without, if you want to stay married. You have to learn how to live your life and find your happiness and don't be depend on him to make you happy. So, when you are together you can be good and at peace, with what you have.

You are going have to get over all the pain from when you were living with his family. You have to learn how to get raid of these toxic relationships and memories. Just leave them behind. Stop giving them the power to hurt you. You cant influence them, so stop giving them so much power over you. At this time, you have given them the power to make you happy or unhappy.

What do you think?
 
#58 ·
We've been back together for 4 months and although I've made improvements in how I handle my resentments about the past and how I deal with his family, I'm still very unhappy. I haven't been able to accept (without anger or more resentment) how close he continues to be with them. The things I have been able to accept, I've done very hesitatingly and grudgingly...

And if I do manage to somehow accept it...

There is still the fact that one day we have to buy a home, and he will want to live 10 minutes away from them. I'll always dislike his family for hurting me. I'll always mistrust them. I'll be angry at myself for letting them back in to my life. I don't know if I would ever get past those feelings...

I will not have the patience or willingness to search for a home near his family, or take them in to consideration at all, or allow them to be a part of our home-buying process.

Also, my husband doesn't take initiative with us. Shouldn't he come to me and say, "Let's buy a home. Let's consider this-this-and-this area. Let's start the mortgage approval process. Let's do something to improve our life instead of living in limbo." He's just as scared as I am.

I don't know.
 
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