False Reconciliation without all the Facts - Page 5 - Talk About Marriage
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post #61 of 100 (permalink) Old 02-29-2016, 06:59 PM
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Re: False Reconciliation without all the Facts

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A counselor friend of mine suggested that the WS should only provide answers that will lead to the desired outcome of R, and they will know what information will be too detrimental for the BS to recover from. Is it deceit, yes. But for a positive purpose. Or they could simply say they had an A, but now it's over. The WS knows the level of deceit with the AP, and knows what it takes to get over it.
Isn't a marriage a desirable outcome for both parties, especially when children are involved?
Awesome.

"I only Lie/Deceive/embellish/hide to protect the ones I love"

But of course.


Holes burn deep in your chest,
Raked by machine gun fire.
Screaming soul sent out to die,
Living mandatory suicide.
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post #62 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MAJDEATH View Post
A counselor friend of mine suggested that the WS should only provide answers that will lead to the desired outcome of R, and they will know what information will be too detrimental for the BS to recover from. Is it deceit, yes. But for a positive purpose. Or they could simply say they had an A, but now it's over. The WS knows the level of deceit with the AP, and knows what it takes to get over it.
Isn't a marriage a desirable outcome for both parties, especially when children are involved?
Awesome.

"I only Lie/Deceive/embellish/hide to protect the ones I love"

But of course.
Someone once said "being told you have been cheated on is worse than being told your spouse has died". We often keep bad news from children, the elderly, and those in poor health. Why? Because we know how devastating extremely troubling news is and we decide it is better for the person not to know, at least for the time being.
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post #63 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 09:29 AM
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Re: False Reconciliation without all the Facts

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Someone once said "being told you have been cheated on is worse than being told your spouse has died". We often keep bad news from children, the elderly, and those in poor health. Why? Because we know how devastating extremely troubling news is and we decide it is better for the person not to know, at least for the time being.
And I told my children that Santa Claus was real.

I don't try to tell adults that Santa Claus was real, and make life decisions around him being real.

Do you see the difference?

The difference -- and I'm frankly surprised by your disturbing stance -- is that I don't get to decide for you what's real.
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post #64 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 09:31 AM Thread Starter
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Is it alright for the wife to say to the husband at the friday night dinner table "So how was your day (wait for him to finish his answer).... Do you remember Mike from work, well we used to do it doggystyle, bareback, on old grandma edith's tombstone at the cemetery every Thursday night after work, but now we've stopped and I want to reconcile. Would you like more gravy?"
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post #65 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 09:46 AM
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Re: False Reconciliation without all the Facts

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Is it alright for the wife to say to the husband at the friday night dinner table "So how was your day (wait for him to finish his answer).... Do you remember Mike from work, well we used to do it doggystyle, bareback, on old grandma edith's tombstone at the cemetery every Thursday night after work, but now we've stopped and I want to reconcile. Would you like more gravy?"
What she should say is "We need to talk. I had an inappropriate relationship with Mike from work. I'll tell you as much or as little as you need to know, but you do need to know that we had sex, I thought I loved him, and now it's over and I want to try to make the marriage work but only if you are willing to. I'm sorry this happened, and my decisions were my accountability."

You know, like a grown up.

Listen man. I don't quite know what you're getting after here. But there's no way you can withhold details of an affair while trying to maintain the moral high ground.

All that is is intellectual and ethical weakness and rationalization.
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post #66 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 09:52 AM
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Re: False Reconciliation without all the Facts

Majdeath,

I do have to agree there is a time element to recovery from affairs, how long it went unconfessed or undiscovered, how long the affair was, etc. Perhaps, depending on the equation, a 5 year long affair undiscovered for 5 years will never be recovered from. Two years for most betrayed spouses is only a minimum.

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post #67 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 10:42 AM Thread Starter
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Is it alright for the wife to say to the husband at the friday night dinner table "So how was your day (wait for him to finish his answer).... Do you remember Mike from work, well we used to do it doggystyle, bareback, on old grandma edith's tombstone at the cemetery every Thursday night after work, but now we've stopped and I want to reconcile. Would you like more gravy?"
What she should say is "We need to talk. I had an inappropriate relationship with Mike from work. I'll tell you as much or as little as you need to know, but you do need to know that we had sex, I thought I loved him, and now it's over and I want to try to make the marriage work but only if you are willing to. I'm sorry this happened, and my decisions were my accountability."

You know, like a grown up.

Listen man. I don't quite know what you're getting after here. But there's no way you can withhold details of an affair while trying to maintain the moral high ground.

All that is is intellectual and ethical weakness and rationalization.
This in no way gets at the heart of the matter-why she cheated? What was the underlying reason for infidelity? The blame for her behavior in the affair is 100% hers, but the blame for the underlying problem in the marriage is 50/50 hers and his. I don't believe you can add the sting of a confessed affair to the equation, before you work on the underlying problem. This should be a 4 step process:
1 End the affair and cut all ties - you cannot work on the underlying issues while still in the fog (your head/emotions are all scrambled up), not to mention it is flat out wrong
2 Get to work on addressing the underlying issues in the relationship, if the partners cannot, will not, or don't want to, then it's time to start the D process
3 Recommit to making the positive changes in your relationship, to begin "phase II" of your marriage, and enjoy the new you and her dynamic
4 Once you can understand the underlying reasons for problems you used to have in the M (but no longer have and you can see the difference with time), then you can show the clear connection to why 1 party would want to have an affair, and it will make sense. Details about the A can then be shared, and the sting will be greatly reduced because the BS understands the why, but also has benefited from a positive turn to the M and wants to continue
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post #68 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 10:55 AM
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Re: False Reconciliation without all the Facts

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This in no way gets at the heart of the matter-why she cheated? What was the underlying reason for infidelity? The blame for her behavior in the affair is 100% hers, but the blame for the underlying problem in the marriage is 50/50 hers and his. I don't believe you can add the sting of a confessed affair to the equation, before you work on the underlying problem. This should be a 4 step process:
1 End the affair and cut all ties - you cannot work on the underlying issues while still in the fog (your head/emotions are all scrambled up), not to mention it is flat out wrong
Correct.
Quote:
2 Get to work on addressing the underlying issues in the relationship, if the partners cannot, will not, or don't want to, then it's time to start the D process
Non sequitur. You cannot resolve issues in a past -> present sequence, you must work your way backward. You do not start with the first problem in the relationship, you start with the most recent critical one.

Starting with the elephant in the room -- the affair.

Plus, you have to give back what you've taken away -- the ability to make a fully informed decision about the rest of their life. Affairs have an element of informational fraud about them -- you don't start fixing fraud by talking about what led up to it. You start fixing fraud by giving back what you took.

And you missed the whole "maybe we both need to get STD tests thing."

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3 Recommit to making the positive changes in your relationship, to begin "phase II" of your marriage, and enjoy the new you and her dynamic
Which can't begin with a lie. Because it all will be a lie.

Quote:
4 Once you can understand the underlying reasons for problems you used to have in the M (but no longer have and you can see the difference with time), then you can show the clear connection to why 1 party would want to have an affair, and it will make sense. Details about the A can then be shared, and the sting will be greatly reduced because the BS understands the why, but also has benefited from a positive turn to the M and wants to continue
BS. The sting will be 1000x worse, because you will have just drug them through the mud, and cleaned off, and you just threw them back in it.

You seem to get a sense that the person having the affair gets to make all the decisions for both parties. Why is that? Especially given the power asymmetry involved?
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post #69 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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Someone once said "being told you have been cheated on is worse than being told your spouse has died". We often keep bad news from children, the elderly, and those in poor health. Why? Because we know how devastating extremely troubling news is and we decide it is better for the person not to know, at least for the time being.
And I told my children that Santa Claus was real.

I don't try to tell adults that Santa Claus was real, and make life decisions around him being real.

Do you see the difference?

The difference -- and I'm frankly surprised by your disturbing stance -- is that I don't get to decide for you what's real.
It is only real if you know about it. I did things while I was deployed overseas in the military that my W will never know about. But if I walk into a room full of soldiers (and a few of them knew of me from my time overseas) and without saying a word, they are super respectful (bordering on scared sh_tl ess) because they know the real me, and what I am capable of. Other soldiers are nonchalant around me.
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post #70 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 11:03 AM
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Re: False Reconciliation without all the Facts

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What she should say is "We need to talk. I had an inappropriate relationship with Mike from work. I'll tell you as much or as little as you need to know, but you do need to know that we had sex, I thought I loved him, and now it's over and I want to try to make the marriage work but only if you are willing to. I'm sorry this happened, and my decisions were my accountability."

You know, like a grown up.

Listen man. I don't quite know what you're getting after here. But there's no way you can withhold details of an affair while trying to maintain the moral high ground.

All that is is intellectual and ethical weakness and rationalization.
He is probably gathering research for his WW to write her book or "he" actually is his wife gathering research.

She should call her book "The Cheaters Handbook" how to fvck around on your spouse and then lie and manipulate them into staying if you are found out.
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post #71 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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What she should say is "We need to talk. I had an inappropriate relationship with Mike from work. I'll tell you as much or as little as you need to know, but you do need to know that we had sex, I thought I loved him, and now it's over and I want to try to make the marriage work but only if you are willing to. I'm sorry this happened, and my decisions were my accountability."

You know, like a grown up.

Listen man. I don't quite know what you're getting after here. But there's no way you can withhold details of an affair while trying to maintain the moral high ground.

All that is is intellectual and ethical weakness and rationalization.
He is probably gathering research for his WW to write her book or "he" actually is his wife gathering research.

She should call her book "The Cheaters Handbook" how to fvck around on your spouse and then lie and manipulate them into staying if you are found out.
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ConanHub, at least you are consistent.
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post #72 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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This in no way gets at the heart of the matter-why she cheated? What was the underlying reason for infidelity? The blame for her behavior in the affair is 100% hers, but the blame for the underlying problem in the marriage is 50/50 hers and his. I don't believe you can add the sting of a confessed affair to the equation, before you work on the underlying problem. This should be a 4 step process:
1 End the affair and cut all ties - you cannot work on the underlying issues while still in the fog (your head/emotions are all scrambled up), not to mention it is flat out wrong
Correct.
Quote:
2 Get to work on addressing the underlying issues in the relationship, if the partners cannot, will not, or don't want to, then it's time to start the D process
Non sequitur. You cannot resolve issues in a past -> present sequence, you must work your way backward. You do not start with the first problem in the relationship, you start with the most recent critical one.

Starting with the elephant in the room -- the affair.

Plus, you have to give back what you've taken away -- the ability to make a fully informed decision about the rest of their life. Affairs have an element of informational fraud about them -- you don't start fixing fraud by talking about what led up to it. You start fixing fraud by giving back what you took.

And you missed the whole "maybe we both need to get STD tests thing."

Quote:
3 Recommit to making the positive changes in your relationship, to begin "phase II" of your marriage, and enjoy the new you and her dynamic
Which can't begin with a lie. Because it all will be a lie.

Quote:
4 Once you can understand the underlying reasons for problems you used to have in the M (but no longer have and you can see the difference with time), then you can show the clear connection to why 1 party would want to have an affair, and it will make sense. Details about the A can then be shared, and the sting will be greatly reduced because the BS understands the why, but also has benefited from a positive turn to the M and wants to continue
BS. The sting will be 1000x worse, because you will have just drug them through the mud, and cleaned off, and you just threw them back in it.

You seem to get a sense that the person having the affair gets to make all the decisions for both parties. Why is that? Especially given the power asymmetry involved?
If you start off with an Affair confession, the BS will never see past it, to address the underlying problems. The mind movies and speculation are a killer to R. It's addressing a symptom of the relationship, not the problems in the relationship. I guess if your goal is to never try to R and you want a quick D, then follow Marduk's method and lead with a full confession with details. If R is your intent, follow my recommended path. Do you want to save your marriage or not?

Last edited by MAJDEATH; 03-01-2016 at 11:22 AM.
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post #73 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 11:38 AM
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Re: False Reconciliation without all the Facts

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ConanHub, at least you are consistent.
Yup. I pretty much promote honesty in marriage.

I promote taking an honest look at infidelity without blowing rainbows up your butt to make you feel better about eating a pile of steaming bvllshyt.

You, via your WW, apparently advocate deceit upon deceit for a good marriage.

You have such a great track record and so does she. Why wouldn't anyone agree that lying your ass off, by omission or otherwise, to your spouse, is a great idea?

Why even come clean? Why not just cheat without getting caught?

As long as your spouse doesn't know, you have a good marriage right?

You advocate building a marriage on a foundation of lies after it was already damaged by a foundation of lies.

Pure brilliance.
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post #74 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 11:42 AM
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Re: False Reconciliation without all the Facts

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If you start off with an Affair confession, the BS will never see past it, to address the underlying problems. The mind movies and speculation are a killer to R. It's addressing a symptom of the relationship, not the problems in the relationship. I guess if your goal is to never try to R and you want a quick D, then follow Marduk's method and lead with a full confession with details. If R is your intent, follow my recommended path. Do you want to save your marriage or not?
You are seriously ill. I have helped fully restore marriages with absolute honesty as the foundation.

It is up to the BS, not the WS, to determine what they need to know.
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post #75 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2016, 11:43 AM
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Re: False Reconciliation without all the Facts

MAJDEATH,

I think I have rarely read of a full confession right at the moment of discovery, it often takes months, years or even decades for the full truth or adequate truth to come out. I would define full truth here as the wayward spouse telling everything they remember at the detail level requested.

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