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post #16 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 06:31 PM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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So we must choose. Do we accept what they can offer and live without some needs being met or do we leave and seek someone who can fill those needs but perhaps will be lacking in other areas? I struggle with this every day and I will admit that there are still times when I almost believe that she will magically one day see the light. However, after over half a century of life I must tell myself that the reality is that her changing is simply an unrealistic expectation.

I have to ask both you and aine. What changed? Was it that life got more complicated? An illness or an injury damaged them? You grew in one direction and they either did not or grew in the opposite direction?

I know you have stated they were just like that. So, why didn't you notice until now? Was the sex that good? Did they fake being empathetic? Were you just not as aware of who you are and what you really want?

Thanks.


"I'm significant!! Screamed the dust speck." - Bill Watterson

"And this, too, shall pass away."
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post #17 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 06:54 PM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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I have to ask both you and aine. What changed? Was it that life got more complicated? An illness or an injury damaged them? You grew in one direction and they either did not or grew in the opposite direction?

I know you have stated they were just like that. So, why didn't you notice until now? Was the sex that good? Did they fake being empathetic? Were you just not as aware of who you are and what you really want?

Thanks.
For me what changed was circumstances. We were quite young when we married and for the first couple of years I attributed it to immaturity, naïveté, innocence. Then the children came along and I was too busy earning a living and raising the children to be concerned about my needs. I recall a particular night when the children were in their mid teens and we were sitting alone because they had gone to the mall or some such place and I made the statement to her that I was deeply concerned about us.

I told her that I feared that when the children leave home to strike out on their own we will not have enough of a connection to sustain the marriage. In typical fashion she sat there silent. When the children did eventually leave we found ourselves in exactly that situation and I contemplated leaving numerous times all the while knowing that she would eventually come to understand how shallow our arrangement was and strive to make it better. False hope, I know.

Then, in short order, along came the grandchildren and I redirected my "needs" to what the grandchildren could supply. So my needs have taken a backseat to my children and now my grandchildren and I am mostly okay with that as I glean great enjoyment from those grandkids.

As in the movie "Click" life seemed to go by in fast forward and now we are here. Dating holds no interest for me and I have adopted the "bird in the hand" mentality. As for the sex, the part it played in this was barely significant as she was LD and I was ND (normal) but because of the disconnect I felt I lost interest and became more LD also.
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post #18 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling shaky

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Yes, You are the one with the problem. Don't try to change him. That is controlling and manipulative. He is who he is and he has a right to be himself if not violent or abuse towards you.

You probably married him BECAUSE he was like your father. Now after 20-30 years you want to change your mind?

Either learn to accept him as he is, and love him for the good qualities he has, or divorce him.
It is not about changing my mind, if you knew the background I have been cheated on, he has been an emotionally abusive alcoholic, and I have put up with a lot of ****. He is now getting on the straight and narrow and thinks that all is fine now. My wounds are deep, i do not feel the emotional connection, I see our marriage very negatively ( i don't know if this is a phase), in short I don't know if I can get over the past.
I have been reading Harville Hendrick's stuff, to see if I am projecting my childhood stuff on my H but tbh, but he is the one who has shat on me for years and now I am thinking, maybe I am a fool for reconciling. People can turn over a new leaf, and he seems to be but I am very confused.
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post #19 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 07:54 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling shaky

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It sounds like he feels the way you want him to feel, but he isn't conveying it to you in a way that you understand. Like speaking two different languages. He may really not know what you want him to do. Have you tried explaining it to him very clearly? And by clear, I mean detailed instructions and examples?
How do you give step by step instruction to someone to emotionally connect and do the little things that keep you connected. They either want to or don't. I don't feel loved at all.
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post #20 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling shaky

I think people by nature are selfish although some are more empathetic than others. In my case i am the one who tries to take care of everyone, i try to work on me and take care of me now though. I sense as i take the focus of him, then the marriage tends to weaken. It's as if i have to be the emotional caretaker and I don't want to anymore. I want to either be alone or married to someone who takes some responsibility for the emotional state of the marriage. I am tired.
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post #21 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 08:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling shaky

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I have to ask both you and aine. What changed? Was it that life got more complicated? An illness or an injury damaged them? You grew in one direction and they either did not or grew in the opposite direction?

I know you have stated they were just like that. So, why didn't you notice until now? Was the sex that good? Did they fake being empathetic? Were you just not as aware of who you are and what you really want?

Thanks.
The kids have gone, he is getting sober (alcohol abuse can overshadow underlying problems), I am exploring my self in counselling and don't want to pretend, I want to be as authentic as possible and right now I dont think we are authentic.
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post #22 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 08:15 PM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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The kids have gone, he is getting sober (alcohol abuse can overshadow underlying problems), I am exploring my self in counselling and don't want to pretend, I want to be as authentic as possible and right now I dont think we are authentic.
So, life's responsibilities have eased.

His sobriety has allowed his true feelings to come out? Odd because so many say that a drunk will tell the truth. I'm confused there.

You are finding out who the professional thinks you are.

I don't understand the meaning of this authenticity. Can you give me a for instance(an example)?

"I'm significant!! Screamed the dust speck." - Bill Watterson

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post #23 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 10:28 PM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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I realized, after a long time and lots of research, that we are all "the victim". It doesn't get much notice, as it is the right of each individual, to be that victim. If one tries to give them self-help advice, it is often assailed. Society, at large, wants the perpetrators punished. It seems so easy, just punish the perpetrators, until they stop pushing our pain buttons, and then we will no longer hurt.

The truth is... this day will never come. "The victim" will always find things to hold against others. Again, it conflicts with their identity as "the victim", which (at its heart) is about power and comfort.

I find it very empowering to realize that we have individual power over our happiness. Many feel that it is unsympathetic, as "the victim" needs the outside world to fix everything for them. The fact is that the outside world is tremendously unreliable. I can count on myself. Each individual can count on themselves.

This doesn't mean I advise no support for victims. It means that the advice needs to help the victim realize their innate strength. We need to help victims in the long-term, rather than only focusing on the short-term, which makes our society hypersensitive, one individual at a time.

I found that my past victimhood resulted in a tremendous amount of externalized negativity, towards others. Our society refuses to see that victimhood can be extremely negative, and controlling towards others. The reason for this? When one is "the victim" their following actions/reactions are seen to be justified. "I only did that because of you. It is your fault that I did that!" That type of behavior is characteristic of the adulterer that blames their spouse for their cheating, for instance.
The Ultimate, but Willing Victim said these words to his torturers, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Our species has no need of being One with "Ultimate Aims".

Someone has to work, to sow, to reap.

You will never know or meet the exception to this Ordering.

That person will make them-self inconspicuous.

What we do not understand, we mock and destroy.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #24 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-14-2016, 01:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling shaky

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Originally Posted by SunCMars View Post
The Ultimate, but Willing Victim said these words to his torturers, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Our species has no need of being One with "Ultimate Aims".

Someone has to work, to sow, to reap.

You will never know or meet the exception to this Ordering.

That person will make them-self inconspicuous.

What we do not understand, we mock and destroy.
SunC - I sort of see what you are saying, I continue to be sacrificial, but I'm only human.
Other parts you are speaking Greek to me here. What exactly are you saying.
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post #25 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-14-2016, 01:56 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling shaky

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So, life's responsibilities have eased.

His sobriety has allowed his true feelings to come out? Odd because so many say that a drunk will tell the truth. I'm confused there.

You are finding out who the professional thinks you are.

I don't understand the meaning of this authenticity. Can you give me a for instance(an example)?
Thank you for all the insightful replies.

The point is I am not sure what his true feelings are as we lack authenticity in communicating, things are probably still too early. It has struck me from looking at a Soberrecovery forum that this is normal in the first year of recovery as the RA needs to be very self focused to deal with their own recovery.
Often marriages don't make it through this part due to the dramatic changes both parties need to deal with.
I keep forgetting this. Dealing with this is not the same as dealing with problems in a normal relationship, it is very much complicated by the alcoholism and not only is it difficult for the RA but also for the partner of the RA as they both have to live a new life and engage without the smokescreen and drama of the alcohol. I need a break from this.

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post #26 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-14-2016, 03:41 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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Thank you for all the insightful replies.

The point is I am not sure what his true feelings are as we lack authenticity in communicating, things are probably still too early. It has struck me from looking at a Soberrecovery forum that this is normal in the first year of recovery as the RA needs to be very self focused to deal with their own recovery.
Often marriages don't make it through this part due to the dramatic changes both parties need to deal with.
I keep forgetting this. Dealing with this is not the same as dealing with problems in a normal relationship, it is very much complicated by the alcoholism and not only is it difficult for the RA but also for the partner of the RA as they both have to live a new life and engage without the smokescreen and drama of the alcohol. I need a break from this.
I can understand needing a break from that. Thanks.

"I'm significant!! Screamed the dust speck." - Bill Watterson

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post #27 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-14-2016, 06:04 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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I think people by nature are selfish although some are more empathetic than others. In my case i am the one who tries to take care of everyone, i try to work on me and take care of me now though. I sense as i take the focus of him, then the marriage tends to weaken. It's as if i have to be the emotional caretaker and I don't want to anymore. I want to either be alone or married to someone who takes some responsibility for the emotional state of the marriage. I am tired.
I had a very similar situation during my 45 year marriage. I was the ultimate giver (and that involved enabling although I didn't see that then). The hardest lesson for me to learn is that someone can love you and still not be capable of meeting your emotional needs -- even when they feel they are trying hard to do so.

Because of my history I virtually never recommend R and usually stay away from R threads. It does work for some but doesn't work for many. It takes a very dedicated WS to make R work well long-term (although some do an excellent job). Trust is usually an issue and it can be very difficult -- or impossible in some cases -- to get that back.

An additional issue in your case that I didn't have to deal with is that he's a recovering alcoholic. I've read that the dynamic of the marriage changes once a spouse quits drinking. All the anger and hurt and disappointment and sadness that tended to be ignored for the most part when the spouse was struggling just to survive the day tends to come out in full force once the other spouse stops drinking. Maybe that's part of it?
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post #28 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-14-2016, 06:20 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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How do you give step by step instruction to someone to emotionally connect and do the little things that keep you connected. They either want to or don't. I don't feel loved at all.
Literally. You give directions literally.

DH was born to parents in their 40's. DH's mom and dad were very WASP in their interactions. No hugging, kisses, "I love you, kid", or any of that after about kindergarten age.

I grew up with a very loud, in your face, huggy, touchy, family.

After a lot of conversation, I realized that DH felt what he was supposed to be feeling for me, but that he had no idea how to demonstrate that or even that he was supposed to demonstrate it.

I gave him literal instructions. If I am sad and you feel the desire to comfort me, hug me, stroke my hair, hold my hand. If you see me walk by and feel the urge to touch me, do it! If I cross your mind, call or send a short text. Seriously, the man was clueless.

If I had a dollar for every time he stood there, all flustered and frustrated, saying "I care! I just don't know what to do!", I'd be posting from a better location!

Last edited by MJJEAN; 07-14-2016 at 06:27 AM.
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post #29 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-14-2016, 02:35 PM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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SunC - I sort of see what you are saying, I continue to be sacrificial, but I'm only human.
Other parts you are speaking Greek to me here. What exactly are you saying.
On TAM, the chorus sings the Highest Praise to those that can escape "Victim-hood by reaching the "Indifferent-Mind" summit.

By being indifferent to those that betrayed you or harmed you, they can no longer "touch" your feelings. They can no longer cause you any pain.

This can be the 50K feet reference also. You are up high and away from your problems and looking down at them.

This certainly helps. It is a good point to be in/at for most of mankind.

It requires of you to be in one of two [likely] states of mind.

1) Indifferent to a single individual or small group of people....the "pain in the azzes" that need to be made powerless. Good if attainable.

2) Numb to the world. This is the most common feeling that a BS feels. They no longer trust "anyone" or anything. Not good.

Indifference is the Code of the Zombies! Having no feeling, even for one human being or situation is NOT the ideal.


The IDEAL would be fully knowing, accepting and forgiving the trespasses of those whom you share the Earth.

And yes, especially those whom are closest to you...intimate with.

If you can accept the fact that men/women are flawed, are not really capable of changing to any large degree, you are on the way toward real happiness.

Knowing that people can be and often are selfish and egocentric and that they cannot or will not change requires Saint-like awareness.

Forgive them for their shortcomings. But do not forget their trespasses. Get away from those that harm you.


Good Luck with that. More than likely you will merely compartmentalize those people and problems.....away. Out of your conscious mind!

See what I mean!

Greek?
Even the Ancient Greeks, save Socrates, Plato and a few others could get themselves to that plane of thought.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #30 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-14-2016, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling shaky

SunC, I don't find your existential BS of much practical use to be honest.


You remove yourself from the shortcomings of others, forgive them etc. Yes I believe in forgiveness and I have exercised that for many years! but 'removing yourself' holding yourself aloof is not the answer as you suggest, humans were made for relationship, not to be on the outside looking in. Granted if we followed your ideas, we would probably be safe from hurt but very lonely people.

Marriage is the most intimate relationship there is, the two become one, not the two keep separate and "indifferent" to each other or "numb" to each other, (your words) that doesn't make any sense. That is why there are so many problems in marriages because we all yearn for relationship.
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