Feeling shaky - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-12-2016, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Feeling shaky

My H and I have been in R for 5 months now. He is still sober. Things have been calm and quiet, he does his thing, I do mine. We go out occasionally, attend functions, etc. we even have sex a few times a week if he is not travelling.
I think it is me. I have huge pressure at work on this project and I have never felt so alone. I cannot talk to him, I get no comfort. I feel emotional disconnect.
I have been doing work with a therapist and the more I am doing the more I realise I have married someone who is like my father. A man who never gave me anything, how can I expect my emotional needs to be met by my H, they never will be.

I am a bit of a mess at the moment as its like a 'light bulb' moment for me. My H is doing all the right things except giving me what I want, connection and acceptance. He says he doesn't know what to do. I feel so lost. Am I the problem?

we are not due to see our MC for a while. I am away overseas with work for a month shortly.


Last edited by aine; 07-12-2016 at 09:17 PM. Reason: add
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post #2 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 05:06 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

You could ask him to read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Guide-Wo.../dp/1623361842

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #3 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 06:50 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

Yes, You are the one with the problem. Don't try to change him. That is controlling and manipulative. He is who he is and he has a right to be himself if not violent or abuse towards you.

You probably married him BECAUSE he was like your father. Now after 20-30 years you want to change your mind?

Either learn to accept him as he is, and love him for the good qualities he has, or divorce him.
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post #4 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 07:16 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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Originally Posted by aine View Post
My H and I have been in R for 5 months now. He is still sober. Things have been calm and quiet, he does his thing, I do mine. We go out occasionally, attend functions, etc. we even have sex a few times a week if he is not travelling.
I think it is me. I have huge pressure at work on this project and I have never felt so alone. I cannot talk to him, I get no comfort. I feel emotional disconnect.
I have been doing work with a therapist and the more I am doing the more I realise I have married someone who is like my father. A man who never gave me anything, how can I expect my emotional needs to be met by my H, they never will be.

I am a bit of a mess at the moment as its like a 'light bulb' moment for me. My H is doing all the right things except giving me what I want, connection and acceptance. He says he doesn't know what to do. I feel so lost. Am I the problem?

we are not due to see our MC for a while. I am away overseas with work for a month shortly.
Any person can learn to empathize. Empathy leads to sympathy. These are skills, not innate charcter traits.


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post #5 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 07:34 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

It sounds like he feels the way you want him to feel, but he isn't conveying it to you in a way that you understand. Like speaking two different languages. He may really not know what you want him to do. Have you tried explaining it to him very clearly? And by clear, I mean detailed instructions and examples?
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post #6 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 07:44 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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Any person can learn to empathize. Empathy leads to sympathy. These are skills, not innate charcter traits.
That is what Gottman's book is about: learning to empathize.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #7 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 08:21 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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Originally Posted by 225985 View Post
Yes, You are the one with the problem. Don't try to change him. That is controlling and manipulative. He is who he is and he has a right to be himself if not violent or abuse towards you.

You probably married him BECAUSE he was like your father. Now after 20-30 years you want to change your mind?

Either learn to accept him as he is, and love him for the good qualities he has, or divorce him.
Ya know, when I first read this I thought it was a bit harsh (and probably still is). However, there is a point here. You married your H for qualities which now that you look back on you wish he didn't have (i.e. he is more like your father which I am guessing is a negative in terms of responding to your needs). You realize now that b/c of this, there are needs of yours that are not being met. The problem/challenge, at this point is it fair to expect him to change? Obviously, you want to try and communicate as best as possible with him about this, but you may be asking him to be someone he is not. This is a tough one. If he truly cares about you and R, he will make his best effort, and hopefully there is some sort of middle ground you could both at least work towards.
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post #8 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 09:24 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

Aine,
He's like your father some because he is a man. Men are complete idiots when it comes to meeting emotional needs of women. You could be with 1000 men and 999 wiukd probably be equally stupid about "connecting" with you.

You've got to spell out in baby terms what you need. I'll bet he will come around. I don't know all the background here, but I wanted my ex to be happy. I had no idea I wasn't taking care of her needs, and couldn't have loved her any more. If you knew my story, it's very likely you would agree with her that I was an unsupportive ass. I was constantly doing my thing, and not worrying about her. I, as most men, didn't need anything from her except some snuggling at night and a meal now and then. I did take her out some, and if she needed me for anything, I was always there. But I had no idea about all the day to day connection and emotional support she needed. Yours probably doesn't either. You have to speak it out.
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post #9 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 09:57 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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Originally Posted by Relationship Teacher View Post
Any person can learn to empathize. Empathy leads to sympathy. These are skills, not innate charcter traits.
Agreement point:

Anyone can learn to Empathize.

I give this a "conditional" nod of assent or agreement.

"Average or Normal" people...yes, they can be taught or conditioned to be emphatic and loving. If you come from a loving home environment, you are "likely" emphatic.

If you are [egocentric] or worse [narcisstic], you can be taught the proper response to another. You may or may not "feel it"....the empathy, but after training or IC you can give the OP the feeling that you do. You must "want" to do this, as it is not natural and naturally "in you".




Dis-agreement point:

Some people are born emphatic [Piscean tinted?]. We all know who they are. They are gentle folks, love everyone and especially love animals.

Oh, they can be totally broken and become fearful and loathing of mankind [rarely to animals]. It is their natural instinct to be trusting and kind.

We can call them Beta....many are....many are Saints, from Day One.

But their lot is [often] "being invisible' to others. They are in the background and remain undervalued. Not too exciting. Having less value. The bright paint in a darkened room, never to be noticed.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #10 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 10:44 AM
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Re: Feeling shaky

@aine wrote:

I have threatened to leave after my second child moves to college. He says he wants to be a better man, but I hear lots of talk, little action.
So it looks like when I show any sign of exerting independence and a search for transparency and honesty I get this BS. I hate him right now. If a man genuinely loved his wife and gave a s*** about making things right then he would open up. That’s how I feel. I am beginning to think that my marriage is dead and unless I just accept everything and move on or out of the marriage nothing will change. My IC says communication has broken down completely and I guess that is the problem, he has never been good at being open. She has suggested some MCs but to be honest right now I think it will be a waste of time just going around in circles.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

This is from a former post or yours.

You said then that once the 2d child moves on to college, you will leave. This is what I would recommend.

I am going to But-tress this recommendation. It relates to the advice given HERE.

TAM is good and bad.

It lets you know that you are not alone in this world. Others have similar problems. This is good.

It also lets you know that others have taken certain paths to alleviate "their" pain and suffering. Many move on in their marriage. On to R or on to GTFO.

Too often, their words are needles. The needles push in one direction....out the door. Your mind becomes "retrained" and "refocused" toward divorce.

The advice given here is what? That since you are unhappy....happiness is to be found "elsewhere", not in your marriage.

This advice CAN BE "Enlightenment" a collective action, steering you to divorce.

TAMMER's are SALESPEOPLE, nothing more. They can only offer you advice, hopefully "wisdom".



The problem IMHO:

Once they tell you how horrible it is to be you, then they tell you dump the guy and start over [AND YOU BUY IT], this is where YOU should be.

You have been "reprogrammed". Yes, some of the decisions were internal [made by you] and needed validation. You NOW have these assets in your "check-out book".



Note: Knowledge is Power. No argument from me, on this. When you apply this to human's and marriages...watch out!

Your mind is made up. You need strength to pull the trigger. The mind rules the finger that will start the lead-butt[s] moving down the barrel, out of your life.

Having said all this. You need to separate. One year should suffice. Nothing else will work at this point.

Let HIM make whatever moves that need to be done to successfully R..... while being separated. Oh, he is satisfied with status quo....You? Not at all.

Do not date other men during this separation. If he dates, then Divorce.


This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #11 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 04:29 PM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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That is what Gottman's book is about: learning to empathize.
There are so many skills that guide us into correct actions, rather than our emotional impulses taking us where they will.

So often, I am assailed because I tell "the victim" to empathize with their aggressor. Empathy dramatically helps "the victim" lessen their emotional pain. The problem is that, we tend to feel a need to hold on to our pain, otherwise, we are letting the perpetrator off the hook. Individuals tend to be very attached to the victim identity, and this becomes a very engrossing topic.

As for the uncaring husband or wife, all they have to do is spend the energy necessary to employ these skills. That alone can get most relationships out of deep water.


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post #12 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 04:35 PM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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Originally Posted by SunCMars View Post
Agreement point:

Anyone can learn to Empathize.

I give this a "conditional" nod of assent or agreement.

"Average or Normal" people...yes, they can be taught or conditioned to be emphatic and loving. If you come from a loving home environment, you are "likely" emphatic.

If you are [egocentric] or worse [narcisstic], you can be taught the proper response to another. You may or may not "feel it"....the empathy, but after training or IC you can give the OP the feeling that you do. You must "want" to do this, as it is not natural and naturally "in you".
These skills take a lot of work to develop. That, necessarily, requires personally derived effort.

The result is less emotional pain and much higher quality of life.

It takes a lot of work, because individuals will resort to unhealthy externally-directed actions, when they become upset. Empathy gets put on the backburner...... when it is pride-defending time. The brain learns by practice, reward and punishment, etc. Individuals must take healthier actions, despite the initial discomfort. It becomes more habitual and natural, when they realize how powerful the skills are.


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post #13 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 04:53 PM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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There are so many skills that guide us into correct actions, rather than our emotional impulses taking us where they will.

So often, I am assailed because I tell "the victim" to empathize with their aggressor. Empathy dramatically helps "the victim" lessen their emotional pain. The problem is that, we tend to feel a need to hold on to our pain, otherwise, we are letting the perpetrator off the hook. Individuals tend to be very attached to the victim identity, and this becomes a very engrossing topic.

As for the uncaring husband or wife, all they have to do is spend the energy necessary to employ these skills. That alone can get most relationships out of deep water.
I often question who "the victim" is, too. I hope at some point we can get beyond "fault," and start looking at needs, and how to meet them.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #14 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 05:34 PM
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Re: Feeling shaky

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I often question who "the victim" is, too. I hope at some point we can get beyond "fault," and start looking at needs, and how to meet them.
I realized, after a long time and lots of research, that we are all "the victim". It doesn't get much notice, as it is the right of each individual, to be that victim. If one tries to give them self-help advice, it is often assailed. Society, at large, wants the perpetrators punished. It seems so easy, just punish the perpetrators, until they stop pushing our pain buttons, and then we will no longer hurt.

The truth is... this day will never come. "The victim" will always find things to hold against others. Again, it conflicts with their identity as "the victim", which (at its heart) is about power and comfort.

I find it very empowering to realize that we have individual power over our happiness. Many feel that it is unsympathetic, as "the victim" needs the outside world to fix everything for them. The fact is that the outside world is tremendously unreliable. I can count on myself. Each individual can count on themselves.

This doesn't mean I advise no support for victims. It means that the advice needs to help the victim realize their innate strength. We need to help victims in the long-term, rather than only focusing on the short-term, which makes our society hypersensitive, one individual at a time.

I found that my past victimhood resulted in a tremendous amount of externalized negativity, towards others. Our society refuses to see that victimhood can be extremely negative, and controlling towards others. The reason for this? When one is "the victim" their following actions/reactions are seen to be justified. "I only did that because of you. It is your fault that I did that!" That type of behavior is characteristic of the adulterer that blames their spouse for their cheating, for instance.


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post #15 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-13-2016, 06:12 PM
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Re: Feeling shaky

OP,
I had just such an epiphany not too long ago. It was extremely unsettling. The moment I realized that my wife was incapable of grasping what I was telling her was life altering. It took me considerable time to fully come to grips with this new reality.

It has been suggested that anyone can learn to empathize but I do not believe that to be true. I do believe that most individuals can be taught or trained to emulate empathetic behavior, much like a dog can be trained to fetch a stick but, under sufficient duress, they will revert back and respond with their true nature.

I believe that empathy is a byproduct of cognition and therefore cannot be manufactured in someone. Further I believe that true empathy requires significant thought and the ability to project and extrapolate an abundance of data. Therefore, those who lack this cognitive ability can never experience true empathy. I believe counseling, for the most part, to be training that teaches response but, without a deep clear understanding of why, the response is conjured and hollow, if not "appropriate".

Your H may simply be lacking the cognitive ability to empathize and sadly there is no way to increase intellectual ability in someone. Your H may even feel a desire to understand what you are explaining and to act accordingly but lacking the ability he really has no choice.

It then falls to you to decide what you can accept. I have struggled with this for some time now because my wife seems earnest in her desire to understand and supply what I need, she simply cannot. Once I came to this realization it allowed me to see her in a different light. Whereas before I saw her as obstinate and uncaring now, after my revelation I see her as unable. That has alleviated some of my frustration but certainly not all. And I must continually remind myself of this fact. She is a good person in her own right, she is just incapable of filling my emotional needs.

So we must choose. Do we accept what they can offer and live without some needs being met or do we leave and seek someone who can fill those needs but perhaps will be lacking in other areas? I struggle with this every day and I will admit that there are still times when I almost believe that she will magically one day see the light. However, after over half a century of life I must tell myself that the reality is that her changing is simply an unrealistic expectation.

Peace and long life
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