ReconciliationThis forum is for those focused on reconciliation and success stories from people who have been through separation and reconciled successfully.
I was about to respond to a few of the above posts, but have decided not to. I'm not interested in making excuses. I think the main thing I have said all along for my situation is that as long as she and I are moving forward, making positive progress, that I will stay with it. I've had several third party individuals here locally who have been able to confirm that they see things moving in the right direction, so that is why I'm still here. I know I get frustrated during weeks where the pace isn't what I'd like it to be, but it is what it is.
What I will report is that the wife and I have had two very good, "deep" conversations in the past five days. The first last Friday morning, the second was Wednesday night. I'll try to recap:
Friday morning's chat sort of started before I left for work and she for school. We normally don't have time to talk much at all in the mornings but we had to discuss our weekend plans as we knew we'd be swamped all weekend and that evening prepping for finishing a bathroom in our basement. On the way to work, my mind was just lit up thinking about our marriage, the efforts we're making on our home, (despite enormous debt, ugh, but we need to finish the basement bathroom so we can rent out a bedroom down there in our small duplex) and since I knew she frequently doesn't like to talk much in person and I was feeling the strain of a "slow progress week", I decided to just unload via text to start, (yes, while driving) and then continued most of it via Facebook message when I got to work. I'll post the whole Facebook transcript below, which as usual, is long so I apologize. Prior to these FB messages, not much had been discussed via text aside from my telling her that I felt like I needed her support for some business things we are looking to get into (things that don't require any financial resources of ours, so they shouldn't be too stressful) and that I'd like it if she could be a bit more positive thinking as well.
Judge if you like, but understand that I was shooting from the hip with what I typed here, not really taking any time on the fly to think it all through aside from all of the thinking I'd done prior to this:
"I want to have an absolute awesome, kick-ass, the envy of all who know us, marriage. That doesn't mean it's awesome every minute or day or week or month or whatever. It means that even if we're mad at each other sometime, bummed out, exhausted, etc. that we can KNOW beyond the shadow of a doubt that we have each other's back, that no matter what we can turn to each other when we feel weak, that we won't be judged and will find that support we need to go on. To trust completely. To know that whatever the world throws at us, we have each other. The confidence of knowing that is true, I think, would be the most incredible feeling. I want this for ME, and I want it for US too as long as you also want that for us. If you don't want the same things, then I would like you to let me know sooner than later so that we can get a fresh start with our lives.
If you do have similar desires, then I want to meet your needs completely, and know that you desire to meet mine as well. No we can't be everything to each other, and we can't always meet every need either. But I want you to know that, at all times, it is my absolute desire to meet your needs. Whatever needs you would have that your husband could meet that is. Love needs for sure, but also the things I described above, on down to simple things like taking care of each other when sick, helping each other with tasks, a back rub after a long day, etc. We can't meet EVERY need we have (friends, family, career, etc. meet lots of our other needs of course) but I want you to know at all times that MY desire is that you are happy and fulfilled, and any way that I am able to help support that, is what I WANT to do. Know what I mean?
And of course conversely I want (expect really) the same from you. Again that doesn't mean you can always meet my relational needs. It means I need to know that you always want to. Lots of very legitimate reasons. But outside of those, I want and NEED to be confident that your personal desire, for yourself, is that I am happy and fulfilled as well. I know that I personally feel most happy, confident, worthy, etc. when I know that you are happy, and I can see into your eyes and know that you feel loved, valued, supported, etc. That's why I will take your side against anyone. I will happily write checks for things you need for your goals, do extra chores and household/parenting responsibilities as needed to support your school work, etc. HAPPILY. That's honestly my best evidence and proof that I love you. Through the years, that's how I was able to know, not because I found myself willing to work hard and sacrifice for you, but because I have seen that I am able to do so HAPPILY. In the past, I have seen the same from you as well.
And just to clarify one thing that has been bugging me, I do want to have a physical relationship. In fact to be more clear, I NEED to have a physical relationship. If you aren't a "physical touch" oriented person (love language) then that is fine and it means that maybe we aren't as physically oriented as I might like all the time, but there does have to be a middle ground. I will happily make minor adjustments to my approach to our relationship to meet your love/respect needs. Like planning gifts and other gestures if that works for you. Planning for quality time together, dates or trips if that is your things. Performing tasks and loving acts of service and such for you if that is it. Going out of my way to write you notes and carefully verbally share how impressed I am by you on a daily basis if words of affirmation is your language, etc. And I need to know that you are willing to do the same for me. (Thankfully, meeting these love languages, I have found, takes extremely little time/effort on a daily basis to make an enormous difference) Maybe touching my shoulders when you walk into a room I'm in isn't your first inclination or doesn't come natural, or maybe sliding over to cuddle with me on the couch when you sit down rather than sitting on the other side, but I know that it doesn't take much effort AT ALL to make minor adjustments to your habits that pay enormous dividends for your partner.
And ultimately that includes sex. The longer that women go without, the less they need and crave it, while the opposite is true for men. Everyone is irritable when they go without for a long while, and both men and women, (even those women with low sex drives or who don't feel like they need it after a long while) still NEED to engage in a sexual relationship in order to feel relationally connected to their partner, because of the way it impacts our physical chemistry and relational parts of our brain as well. Meaning healthy relationships cannot grow from a sexless marriage, even those involving a partner or both partners who aren't always excited by sex.
It's not the "getting off" part that does it either, it's the knowing that you care about me and my needs, and hopefully desire me enough to let me meet yours too, to open ourselves up to each other in that way. It's the most powerful vote of confidence and respect a man can receive, ESPECIALLY when I knew that sex was a bit of a struggle for you. I'm not saying that sex or sexual activity solves everything, but wow it makes EVERYTHING better. Less irritability, greater desire to please each other, work better together, be happier/more supportive, greater motivation to be productive, etc. Basically the benefits that anyone who feels loved experiences.
I know a year or so ago I promised that I would neither expect, nor push/pressure for sex in any way to the absolute best of my ability for a "long while" knowing that you would need time to heal and for the relational ties to regrow. I feel pretty confident that I've kept to my word on that. Now you've been home for nearly five months, we sleep in the same bed together, and it is incredibly difficult and, at this point, hurtful for me that there is nothing remotely physical between us. I fear that I have made it too easy to just ignore this problem by promising that there are no expectations, so at this point I feel that we really need to be working on our sexual relationship as well. I'm not saying that we need to have sex TONIGHT or anything anything like that (Well, for the record, yeah I'd LOVE that, but I'm not saying that I expect that), but I believe that we need to now be putting effort into restoring our physical relationship.
I am not blaming you for anything here, so I don't want you to feel bad right now or anything like that. I'm not judging you or saying you are doing anything wrong, or telling you what to do/not to do, etc. I'm not trying to dictate what our future has to be like, because you are a different person with your own ideas and feelings for the future. Heck, like I said before, if the future you want doesn't share many similarities with mine, then I'd rather find out now so that we can find someone else to be happy with. I just want you to know where I am at, how I feel, what I need, etc., and to understand that these expectations cannot be ignored and they will not go away. I'm damn committed to being a GREAT husband, I want to be YOUR great husband, but only if you intend to be a great wife to me as well. If you ever need help, need me to understand something, or if there is something you feel I am doing wrong or could be doing better, I honestly want you to feel free to share that with me every time, asap, and I promise I will be open to it."
That night, we chatted real briefly about it all and she said she understood where I was coming from, that I have not been unreasonable, and would make every effort to share how she is feeling about me and be more forthright about letting me know when there are things I'm doing wrong or could do better to help me out as well. That night while at Home Depot getting lumber for our basement project, she held my hand while we walked around the store.
Then the Wednesday night conversation. We already were having a great in depth conversation about family, work, school stuff, etc. that then led into the topic of our relationship again. She shared with me that she often feels like she is invisible to me when I come home and immediately get busy with housework, various projects, etc. She shared that when she is around my friends and I, that I mostly ignore her or just focus on them. She shared that she does still struggle to trust me, sexually and relationally. She said that after our marriage basically failed, the affair with the married guy failed, she was crushed. She said she never really loved the last guy, the eventual convicted pedophile that she moved in with, and that they really weren't very sexual. She said the only reason she was able to be sexual at all with him was BECAUSE she didn't love him, and because she was afraid of being totally alone.
With me, it is sort of like being asked to try to fall back in love with your former abuser. She said she has appreciated my patience and she has tried to keep working on us. She said that yes her libido is virtually non-existent anyway, and she knows that I need a physical relationship and feels awful that she hasn't been ready for that yet. (She was saying much of this through tears) She also affirmed that yes she wants to stay married to me, and wants to have a great marriage, but is just afraid because of how difficult it has been for her to recover from all the pain of the last few years.
I made sure to acknowledge everything she was saying, and apologize for the things she said that I had done that bothered her. I assured her that she is a key focus in my life, and I value her immensely, 2nd only to God in my world. I explained that the housework and projects and such I thought I was mostly doing for her and to show her that I'm not lazy, that I am committed, and useful, etc. I also explained that I think most men have a need to feel useful, respected, worthy, etc. and I imagine that is part of it.
She seemed to accept everything, had a few apologies of her own, and we ended it on a good note. We then went and watched a movie together which is something I know that she never really enjoys but I love them, so it was nice to see her do that.
I don't think you are making any progress whatsoever. Actually I believe you are going backwards. All of this talking about your feelings and writing long notes/having long conversations with your wife has to be killing whatever attraction she might or does feel for you right now.
You have to understand women first and foremost. It's not what they say that's important, it's what they do. They do not communicate overtly and directly like men do. Look at what her actions are saying to you right now-
1. They are saying that she is not attracted to you.
2. They are NOT saying that it has to do with libido. If that were the case she wouldn't have had sex with pedophile.
3. (the good) They are saying that she would like to be attracted to you; because she is there with you and that says a lot.
You can't negotiate attraction. You can't talk your wife into wanting to be sexual with you. Progress would be stuff like kissing/making out, her getting changed in front of you, BJs, etc…
Please, sir…read No More Mr. Nice guy if you haven't already done so. It's available for free on the web. I would also strongly recommend you check out the NMMNG forum and read a few dozen threads. There are other men that were in the situation that you are in and turned it around.
It's possible that it can be turned around, but not the way you are going about it.
What a load of crap she is spewing. And shame on you for buying into it.
So she can't have sex with you because she loves you, but she has sex with a muther-fvcking POS child molester because she didn't love him?
Oaky, let me read that again:
Quote:
She shared that she does still struggle to trust me, sexually and relationally. She said that after our marriage basically failed, the affair with the married guy failed, she was crushed. She said she never really loved the last guy, the eventual convicted pedophile that she moved in with, and that they really weren't very sexual. She said the only reason she was able to be sexual at all with him was BECAUSE she didn't love him, and because she was afraid of being totally alone.
One more time, and maybe I'll understand this:
Quote:
She shared that she does still struggle to trust me, sexually and relationally. She said that after our marriage basically failed, the affair with the married guy failed, she was crushed. She said she never really loved the last guy, the eventual convicted pedophile that she moved in with, and that they really weren't very sexual. She said the only reason she was able to be sexual at all with him was BECAUSE she didn't love him, and because she was afraid of being totally alone.
So, she has sex with men she doesn't love and refuses sex with YOU, a man she professes to love....
Am I the only one on this thread who is not getting this?
What did you do to her in the past that makes her trust a man she doesn't love over you? Did you rape her? Did you sodomize her? Did you bring a group of men to the house and gangbang her?
What did you do that was so bad that she won't have sex with you?
I don't get it. I don't think anyone here gets it.
What a load of crap she is spewing. And shame on you for buying into it.
So she can't have sex with you because she loves you, but she has sex with a muther-fvcking POS child molester because she didn't love him?
Oaky, let me read that again:
One more time, and maybe I'll understand this:
So, she has sex with men she doesn't love and refuses sex with YOU, a man she professes to love....
Am I the only one on this thread who is not getting this?
What did you do to her in the past that makes her trust a man she doesn't love over you? Did you rape her? Did you sodomize her? Did you bring a group of men to the house and gangbang her?
What did you do that was so bad that she won't have sex with you?
I don't get it. I don't think anyone here gets it.
What it boils down to is that she is not attracted to him. Women will say all kinds of nonsense to 'justify' their lack of attraction. My guess is that she doesn't really even understand it and as such is just manufacturing excuses that may be passable cover stories to avoid some really uncomfortable and inconvenient truths.
One of the mistakes that OP is making, imo, is to take these justifications and internalize them, take them personally, and accept them as valid, therefore giving them credence and legitimacy and crystallizing them as real. Defending oneself against these types of excuses is a good way to give up power and further exacerbate the situation, in my opinion.
What it boils down to is that she is not attracted to him. Women will say all kinds of nonsense to 'justify' their lack of attraction. My guess is that she doesn't really even understand it and as such is just manufacturing excuses that may be passable cover stories to avoid some really uncomfortable and inconvenient truths.
One of the mistakes that OP is making, imo, is to take these justifications and internalize them, take them personally, and accept them as valid, therefore giving them credence and legitimacy and crystallizing them as real. Defending oneself against these types of excuses is a good way to give up power and further exacerbate the situation, in my opinion.
Yeah I think you nailed it.
She is using the possibilty of one day having sex with him again as a carrot to keep her hooks in him, let him support her, and leech off him while she finishes school.
I'm always open to new ideas that don't involve "Kick her ass to the curb" or "go home and tell her to spread her legs or get out" or the like. I liked hopeful hubby's suggestions as well. The key I think before moving to anything more dramatic was me sitting down and laying out my expectations both for the marriage long term, and the present. That meant letting her know that I believe we now need to be at a point where we are working on our physical relationship as well. Not sometime down the road, but now. I think I owe it to her to give her at least a few weeks to see if she can follow through on that.
I hope that makes sense. It wouldn't have been fair for me, as an example, to have kicked her out a week ago for not having been willing to be sexual all this time, when the last thing she had been told was that no sexual activity was expected until told otherwise. Now she has been told otherwise, so now I am free to do what I can to try to move us in that direction and see how she chooses to respond. If there is zero progress after a few weeks, then I think it'll be time to step it up.
You need to act like you don't give a rat's as$ if she has sex with you are not! She knows you want to, so quit telling her you do! Get a life. Do things you enjoy and don't share all your plans with her. And, get the books that Wilderness suggested and read them this weekend!
I'm always open to new ideas that don't involve "Kick her ass to the curb" or "go home and tell her to spread her legs or get out" or the like. I liked hopeful hubby's suggestions as well. The key I think before moving to anything more dramatic was me sitting down and laying out my expectations both for the marriage long term, and the present. That meant letting her know that I believe we now need to be at a point where we are working on our physical relationship as well. Not sometime down the road, but now. I think I owe it to her to give her at least a few weeks to see if she can follow through on that.
I hope that makes sense. It wouldn't have been fair for me, as an example, to have kicked her out a week ago for not having been willing to be sexual all this time, when the last thing she had been told was that no sexual activity was expected until told otherwise. Now she has been told otherwise, so now I am free to do what I can to try to move us in that direction and see how she chooses to respond. If there is zero progress after a few weeks, then I think it'll be time to step it up.
This type of communication doesn't work. It makes things worse. Again, you are trying to negotiate feelings and attraction, and that doesn't work. Try something different, what you are doing is not working. Are you familiar with the concept of 'frame'? You need to develop the mindset that this is your life that she is participating in (if she meets your standards), and not the other way around. Frame |
Funny thing - I don't think it's the end of the world at all. I don't think she's a devious conniving ***** who is playing CD. I do however have absolutely no doubt that she's not attracted to CD at all.
Actually that's wrong. She probably somewhat repelled by CD.
I wish I had good news for you, I really do. I believe, based on your posts (and despite my conviction that you're whitewashing the reality to justify your decisions) that things are and will get better. However, I don't think they will ever become "good". They simply will get less bad.
What you have in store for you is a sexless life with this woman. That's the best you're going to get. You may be able to negotiate an open relationship, or something along those lines, but the affection you obviously desire would be like squeezing water from a rock. And your name isn't Moses.
There's tons of good ideas being fed to you here. Books to read, assertive moves to make. I'm with you on one thing - demanding sex from her makes no sense, certainly not to me. But what you're doing is probably the one thing that's worse - you're begging for it. Every conversation you've posted here comes to the same thing - begging. Please love me. Please touch me. Please satisfy me. Not a good move.
CD:One correction as it relates to the swinging/swapping stuff. I myself never actually participated. We never got that far and I never even reached the point of advocating for myself to play with others.
CD:I became a pervert/sexual deviant/porn addict who actively sought to get her to have sex with others so that I could watch and then possibly participate.
Does this mean your wife had sex with other people
or
she never had sex with other people but you just asked her to do it but it never happened
I ask because she said something along the lines It's like falling for your abuser
Karole: I think that might be a good next step. I'm not going to beg, but I did clearly establish my expectations and needs. If she shows that she's unwilling to meet those while allowing me to meet hers, then that might be the next route to try. Maybe move out of the bedroom and not concern myself with her needs.
Wilderness: Which type of communication doesn't work? In the post you quote, I only repeated that I shared with her my expectations and needs. I stated clearly that I need a sexual relationship with her in order to feel connected, respected and happy in the marriage, and that we need to get to that point now, not later. I can't see how clearly laying out expectations to your partner could ever be a bad thing. I don't think I was negotiating anything when I had that talk with her, or since then. Everything prior to that isn't really relevant, as this is a change of approach for me.
Caladan: I think you might be most right here. I do frequently worry that she is simply not attracted to me. In fact I know several years ago after she had moved out, she had privately (yeah I found an online chat log of hers) told a friend that she was not physically attracted to me and wasn't sure if she ever really was. Of course, at that time we were recently split, she was with another guy, she had years of built up anger and pain that was fresh in her mind, and had lots of other negative things to say about me, some of which weren't factually true. In that convo, she was trying to defend her leaving me, so it made sense for her to add "not attracted to him" to that case, true or not.
Now I'm not trying to convince myself that it isn't true, just that its very reasonable to see how it might not be true or have been an exaggeration in that context. With that said, I also believe strongly that women (more so than men) can fall in love with a man much more easily based on who he is as a person, how he carries himself, how he works hard, treats her and his children well, financially stable, is a good over all male specimen, etc., even if she is not very physically attracted to him. Especially if he isn't obviously overweight, dirty/stinky all the time, has a major handicap or something similar, etc. No one who ever has known either of us has ever suggested to me that maybe she never loved me to begin with, everyone has always sworn that they believed she loved me. Is it possible that she loved me but has never been incredibly physically attracted to me however? Yeah absolutely. She did point out how I went from about 175lbs when we got married to about 210lbs about six years later, so I've been working to get more in shape in the last year, especially in light of the advice received here in TAM. I'm down to 195lbs now, and my ideal weight for my height is 185lbs.
But like I said, maybe you are right Caladan. She already says that she loves me, but obviously not "passionately" so yet. But even if that love does grow very strong, there is definitely that chance that she'll never be very sexual, whether that has anything to do with her attraction level towards me or not. Frankly I'm convinced that she wouldn't be very sexually oriented in any relationship without a lot of effort on the part of the man to make that happen or some personal growth on her part or both.
As far as begging, I do not feel like I am begging, yet. As I mentioned, I didn't "change the rules" regarding sex until just last week or so. I haven't yet tried to push for sex since then, but have been stepping up my game to include regular touching of various kinds. On saturday night she kissed me full on the lips without my initiating, which was an absolute first. Last night she twice asked me to come cuddle with her on the couch in front of our christmas tree, and gave me another kiss on the way after noticing that our daughter had hung mistletoe over our entry way. On Wednesday last week, (a few days after our talk) she stopped me in the kitchen for a hug and said she would kiss me but I was only 36 hours from starting medication for strep throat, and didn't want to risk getting sick herself. (Very reasonable) Obviously she could just be trying to appease me (which is fine!) with such "small" steps in order to avoid having to go all the way, but it's only been a week so I am totally ok with the smaller steps she's been taking in a very short period of time.
The only time I've been "rejected" was a few nights ago when I tried to cuddle up to her in bed and she rolled away a bit and said that she wasn't yet comfortable enough for that. (Spooning) I didn't argue or say anything, I just got up and left the room to play video games for an hour or two. She typically likes me to come fall asleep with her at night, usually around 10pm which is earlier that I typically like to go to sleep. So if she didn't want to cuddle for a few minutes while falling asleep, then I wasn't going to reward her by staying in bed with her.
Mupostori: To answer your question, during our brief "swinging/sharing" phase, yes she did have sex with a male friend of mine three times, all with my permission and with me being present two of those times. At the time, my moronic point of view was focused on trying to show her that sex was fun and exciting, and that I would benefit from that. The first time was a surprise for her, she didn't know I was planning it. Each time she found the experience itself exciting, but then felt extreme guilt afterwards and uncomfortable about doing it again. She would eventually share that she felt pressured into doing it for me (which I certainly did pressure her) and never felt right about it. She knew she was "failing" me as a wife and felt guilty about that.
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation 
