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Reconciliation This forum is for those focused on reconciliation and success stories from people who have been through separation and reconciled successfully.

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Old 11-26-2013, 01:56 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

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I acknowledged that it was wrong, and that her behavior back then was selfish. I'm not defending what she did.

I think my point was valid though. We see stories of women trying to get out of bad marriages here on TAM all the time, and they get all kinds of advice on how to do it. They aren't always told, "No you should stay in your marriage no matter what" even though that is of course always an option. Karole is implying that leaving our daughter in my very safe and proven hands was somehow damning, rather than taking her with her to couch surf with friends for a month and then in an apartment with a creepy old man who turned out to be a pedophile. Obviously the entire situation sucked, and there is nothing she could have done to make her leaving the marriage not suck, but I can't imagine too many scenarios where she could have left the marriage in a more appealing way. I imagine if she had been posting here way back then, many of you would have given her lots of advice for how to get out, and since she would have been the one painting the picture of us, I probably would have come off looking/sounding like a terrible husband who needed to be left right away.
I have never seen anyone on this board tell anyone to abandon their children. As a matter of fact, people coming here that are going through divorce are told do not leave your home. Judge's look at that as abandonment and that is exactly what your wife did. If you had filed for divorce when your wife left, you would have most likely gotten custody of your daughter. The court would see what your wife did as abandonment.

As a mother myself, it is difficult to imagine any mother abandoning their daughter for any reason, especially to move in with a child molester and then staying with said child molester after she knew that he was one. I guess she should be commended for agreeing not to take her daughter around him, but geez, isn't that sort of a no brainer?

Why couldn't your wife get a job and support herself and her daughter? Why not file for divorce and ask for child support and/or alimony? There were things she could have done so that she did not have to leave her child. She chose not to.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:47 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

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Ok, now I'm really lost. How did she intentionally harm my daughter?? Marriages fall apart every day, people quit or leave marriages every day. I don't think either partner ever really intentionally tries to harm their children in that process.
She abandoned your daughter. And she certainly didn't do it by accident. She chose to abandon your daughter.
I think you should hold her accountable for that.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:59 PM   #198 (permalink)
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She abandoned your daughter. And she certainly didn't do it by accident. She chose to abandon your daughter.
I think you should hold her accountable for that.


It takes a special, cold-hearted person to abandon their child. This is why I do not believe this woman is going to stick around after she graduates from her program.

I would bet she will be searching for a job in a different city or state just so she can ditch cdbaker and her daughter as soon as she has an opportunity.

She's a user.
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Old 11-26-2013, 04:40 PM   #199 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

Wow, ok, this went off in a complete other direction.

I'm struggling with the notion that the alternative to "abandoning her daughter" is taking our daughter with her to couch surf at various friends homes for a couple of weeks and then move her in to an apartment with a man she'd only known for about 45 days (who later turned out to be a pedophile, he had no convictions of any kind prior to that), immediately after telling her that her mommy and daddy were going to live apart for a while. Again, THAT was the alternative. I cannot see how that alternative would make her a better mom than leaving her in her home with me, where I maintained a stable and comforting environment for her, while committing to visit her, taking her out, or speaking to her over the phone nearly every single day.

She DID get a job shortly before she left. Full time making $8/hour. A "single" mom can't live on $8 an hour and afford an apartment, utilities, food/clothing, gas, car payment, etc. So she moved in with the other man who she was seeing. Every counselor I have spoken to and co-parenting book I have read says that you have to be extremely careful when introducing children to new boyfriends or girlfriends, and we both knew that our 6 year old daughter being introduced to Mommy's new boyfriend who she'd only known for less than two months, would not be a good idea, let alone making her live with him as well. Despite everything, she also did not yet want a divorce, so as long as I wasn't forcing one, she didn't actually want to go file for divorce.

I wish she hadn't left. I know she was selfish to blast out of the house the way she did, and it was certainly unwise and hurtful for her to immediately move in with a new man. She didn't feel that she had many options due to her limited income, and she trusted me with our daughter at home, ultimately believing it was in her BEST INTEREST to not be forced to move out of her home to live in less desirable circumstances (crappy apartment in bad area of town, best that she could afford) with Mom's new boyfriend who she didn't know. My daughter didn't even find out that her mom was leaving or that the marriage was in trouble until the day she left. Are all of you actually saying that she made the wrong decision to leave her with me??!

Why is there this assumption that a woman is automatically a horrible mom if she doesn't insist on taking her children with her, regardless of any other factors involved?! Why can't a woman recognize that she is not in a healthy place (emotionally, mentally, financially) to be the primary caretaker of a child and make, what I believe was, the right choice to leave her child in a stable environment with the other parent and then do her best to co-parent from a few miles away on the other side of town? Are we really saying that any woman who comes to a decision to separate from her husband for valid reasons is automatically a horrible human being who should be ashamed of herself if she chooses to let her child continue to sleep in her own bedroom in what she feels is a better situation, just because she won't be living there as well? Even though she would see, talk with or take her out nearly every single day???

Incidentally, my wife had a baby when she was 16 years old and gave him up to a family she knew who could not have children. That boy is now in 6th grade, is happy and healthy with his family. I guess this makes her a ****ty, cold-hearted, despicable human being and a terrible parent right?


Karole: My wife DID get a job and try to support herself, but didn't make enough to be able to provide even 1/3 of the life that I was able to provide at our already established home. The other man had absolutely no convictions or even known accusations of having any interest in underage persons during her involvement with him. In no way, shape or form did she stay with him once the first notice of an accusation of pursuing the sexual relationship with the young girl came out, which was when he was arrested. Heck, the police showed up, arrested him, and despite only a $1,000 bail, he couldn't afford it and thus stayed in jail for the next six months during the court case. He was there when she left for work one day and was gone when she returned, finding the police there picking through her stuff for evidence, and hasn't seen him since. And why would it be better for her to have taken our daughter into that whole situation, filed for divorce and then seek child support from me? Are you trying to convince me that it would have been better if she had taken our daughter from me into that situation and forced me to pay for it?? Am I, or any father really, supposed to agree with that?

Wilderness: How the heck am I supposed to hold her accountable for this three and a half years later??? What am I supposed to say to her when I get home at 6pm tonight, her in the kitchen finishing up dinner while our daughter is doing her homework at the table? "How despicable of you to leave our daughter with me three and a half years ago, in our family home, rather than forcibly move her into the crappy apartment you had on the bad side of town with your new alcoholic boyfriend! Why couldn't you have at least filed for divorce and made me pay you for it with child support too? Get out, you disgust me."


I can't even begin to understand what the point of these comments are supposed to tell me. Has anyone asked if she's been a great mother since moving back home? If she kept to her promise of seeing, speaking with or being involved with our daughter's life on a daily basis since she moved out back in the spring of 2010? I guess those things don't matter because she is female, so all that matters is that she didn't take her child from me?
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Old 11-27-2013, 01:45 AM   #200 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

CD,

Understand what you saying. The important thing to see here is that if were to divorce, even three years later, her abandonment of your daughter would count heavily against her in custody hearings. Throw in the criminality of her exOM, and we see the court likely restricting her to a non custodial role.

So the case against her is heavy. The swinging history would not save her. The judge and social worker investigators would shake their heads, but cheating is nothing anymore.

Road Scholar's thread, have you read it?
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Old 11-27-2013, 08:07 AM   #201 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

She is a great mom and mother because of proximity only. I think what I am trying to get at is that, as long as your wife is in school and living with you, she will play the part of dutiful mom.

As soon as she gets a job offer, she's going to leave again. That's just my prediction.
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:42 AM   #202 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

Oh yeah, I'm definitely aware of how things could have looked in court. You might recall that initially when she left (and this is actually valid in the context of whether she "abandoned" her daughter or not), I did file for divorce because I was afraid that she was going to take our daughter away. She wasn't in a very healthy state of mind at the time and had at one point angrily proclaimed that she would return the next day to take our daughter with her. So I quickly filed for divorce purely to get a temporary emergency custody order, which I received. So for the record, I legally prevented my wife from removing our daughter from the marital home. So she didn't really have the option of taking her with her. I have said this before here on TAM, but it's probably a dozen or so pages back or maybe on another thread, so I cant' blame anyone for not remembering. So as far as "abandonment", her defense in family court could have easily been that she couldn't legally take her.

And yes, in the six month period that we had a divorce case pending, I had a lawyer whip up a very strong position just in case it did end in an actual divorce and custody dispute. It was made pretty apparent that I would have likely received a very "favorable" custody order, likely for 100% residential custody (50% legal custody) and child support, similar to what I had in the temporary orders during that time.

As far as it being 3 years later... I kind of doubt the court would still find much of that relevant now, wouldn't you think? Especially since I dropped the case back then and she hasn't made any clear-cut bad parenting or otherwise "unstable" decisions since then.
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:50 AM   #203 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

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Wow, ok, this went off in a complete other direction.

I'm struggling with the notion that the alternative to "abandoning her daughter" is taking our daughter with her to couch surf at various friends homes for a couple of weeks and then move her in to an apartment with a man she'd only known for about 45 days (who later turned out to be a pedophile, he had no convictions of any kind prior to that), immediately after telling her that her mommy and daddy were going to live apart for a while. Again, THAT was the alternative. I cannot see how that alternative would make her a better mom than leaving her in her home with me, where I maintained a stable and comforting environment for her, while committing to visit her, taking her out, or speaking to her over the phone nearly every single day.

She DID get a job shortly before she left. Full time making $8/hour. A "single" mom can't live on $8 an hour and afford an apartment, utilities, food/clothing, gas, car payment, etc. So she moved in with the other man who she was seeing. Every counselor I have spoken to and co-parenting book I have read says that you have to be extremely careful when introducing children to new boyfriends or girlfriends, and we both knew that our 6 year old daughter being introduced to Mommy's new boyfriend who she'd only known for less than two months, would not be a good idea, let alone making her live with him as well. Despite everything, she also did not yet want a divorce, so as long as I wasn't forcing one, she didn't actually want to go file for divorce.

I wish she hadn't left. I know she was selfish to blast out of the house the way she did, and it was certainly unwise and hurtful for her to immediately move in with a new man. She didn't feel that she had many options due to her limited income, and she trusted me with our daughter at home, ultimately believing it was in her BEST INTEREST to not be forced to move out of her home to live in less desirable circumstances (crappy apartment in bad area of town, best that she could afford) with Mom's new boyfriend who she didn't know. My daughter didn't even find out that her mom was leaving or that the marriage was in trouble until the day she left. Are all of you actually saying that she made the wrong decision to leave her with me??!

Why is there this assumption that a woman is automatically a horrible mom if she doesn't insist on taking her children with her, regardless of any other factors involved?! Why can't a woman recognize that she is not in a healthy place (emotionally, mentally, financially) to be the primary caretaker of a child and make, what I believe was, the right choice to leave her child in a stable environment with the other parent and then do her best to co-parent from a few miles away on the other side of town? Are we really saying that any woman who comes to a decision to separate from her husband for valid reasons is automatically a horrible human being who should be ashamed of herself if she chooses to let her child continue to sleep in her own bedroom in what she feels is a better situation, just because she won't be living there as well? Even though she would see, talk with or take her out nearly every single day???

Incidentally, my wife had a baby when she was 16 years old and gave him up to a family she knew who could not have children. That boy is now in 6th grade, is happy and healthy with his family. I guess this makes her a ****ty, cold-hearted, despicable human being and a terrible parent right?


Karole: My wife DID get a job and try to support herself, but didn't make enough to be able to provide even 1/3 of the life that I was able to provide at our already established home. The other man had absolutely no convictions or even known accusations of having any interest in underage persons during her involvement with him. In no way, shape or form did she stay with him once the first notice of an accusation of pursuing the sexual relationship with the young girl came out, which was when he was arrested. Heck, the police showed up, arrested him, and despite only a $1,000 bail, he couldn't afford it and thus stayed in jail for the next six months during the court case. He was there when she left for work one day and was gone when she returned, finding the police there picking through her stuff for evidence, and hasn't seen him since. And why would it be better for her to have taken our daughter into that whole situation, filed for divorce and then seek child support from me? Are you trying to convince me that it would have been better if she had taken our daughter from me into that situation and forced me to pay for it?? Am I, or any father really, supposed to agree with that?

Wilderness: How the heck am I supposed to hold her accountable for this three and a half years later??? What am I supposed to say to her when I get home at 6pm tonight, her in the kitchen finishing up dinner while our daughter is doing her homework at the table? "How despicable of you to leave our daughter with me three and a half years ago, in our family home, rather than forcibly move her into the crappy apartment you had on the bad side of town with your new alcoholic boyfriend! Why couldn't you have at least filed for divorce and made me pay you for it with child support too? Get out, you disgust me."


I can't even begin to understand what the point of these comments are supposed to tell me. Has anyone asked if she's been a great mother since moving back home? If she kept to her promise of seeing, speaking with or being involved with our daughter's life on a daily basis since she moved out back in the spring of 2010? I guess those things don't matter because she is female, so all that matters is that she didn't take her child from me?
Even though you are a smart guy, your wife seems to really have you fooled, man. You are making an argument that is a false dichotomy. It wasn't either your wife leave your child with you or she take her with her to couch surf. There was a very viable 3rd alternative, which was stay living in the family home as your wife. Why do you ignore this?

The comments are supposed to get you thinking and to hopefully change your perspective. In my opinion you have a totally distorted opinion of your wife that is not supported by the facts. I do not believe she is a good mother. I do not believe she is a good wife. I do not believe she is a good person. And I believe the facts and evidence support my position as opposed to yours.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:55 PM   #204 (permalink)
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Default Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

Well of course she could have stayed. But I've already written about the myriad of issues that led her to the decision that she couldn't stay. Again, there are spouses who feel they are pushed to a breaking point in their marriages every day, to the point of making the decision to leave the marriage. For many, their justifications are very well supported and reasonable, and for others not so much. If you have read all of my posts going back to the beginning and feel that she did not have sufficient justifications for wanting out of the marriage, or that her feeling the need to escape was ... unsupported? Then maybe I see your point and I'll just have to disagree. I have always understood why she reached that breaking point, why she was ultimately desperate to escape, convinced that there was nothing she could do to make things better, convinced that I would not change either, etc., and most people who knew us well (family and friends) also understood and agreed that she wasn't crazy or irrational to have given up on the marriage.

Our marriage was an absolute mess. I was an ******* and just didn't get it. She was immature and allowed herself to commit adultery rather than make the (slightly) more honorable decision to just file for divorce and move out or try to get me to move out. Naturally when anyone gets married they commit to stick with it through thick and thin, but for most people there is a point at which we understand or even agree that someone should throw in the towel. That point or line in the sand is different for everyone, but for both of our families and friends who know us, they agree that our marriage reached a point where divorce not only seemed like the most reasonable course of action, but also that it was inevitable. By the summer of 2010, I don't think any of them would have faulted her or felt her decision to give up on the marriage was unreasonable, including our christian marriage counselor.

She could have chosen to get on a plane and move to Antarctica as well, but from her perspective, that would have been unreasonable and not beneficial to anyone involved. Remaining committed to what she and others felt was a failed marriage with a terrible husband who had proven thus far to be incapable of change, seemed equally unreasonable and not beneficial to anyone involved.

Seriously, not that this should surprise many of you, but I think nearly every single person who knew us well was actively saying to us, "You two need to get a divorce, its just not working and I don't see it getting any better." So was "stay living in the family home as your wife" really a "viable 3rd alternative?" At that point in time, I think you and I would be the only two people who feel that way.
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Old 11-27-2013, 01:14 PM   #205 (permalink)
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Whoever coined the phrase "love is blind"
was thinking of you.

Stop defending this woman. Perhaps she is not all bad but if you look at the facts and evidence in the aggregate it's crystal clear that your wife is not a good person. I find it ironic that you make the argument that all of the people in your life believed a certain way and therefore it makes their belief true, yet all of the people on this forum believe a certain way and you dismiss their beliefs out of hand.
Food for thought.
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Old 11-27-2013, 01:32 PM   #206 (permalink)
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I don't think she's a bad woman, not at all. At the same time, I have no idea what CD is thinking.

I'll say it again - the odds of your wife coming back to you in any reasonable wifely fashion are next to nothing.

But - if I'm being honest, I have no issues with your wife at all. This whole thread, is all about you, your refusal to fix yourself, and your constant begging for love.

You need to get some therapy. Leave your wife to herself. Let her do whatever she wants. You need to fix yourself. And please, don't try to justify your actions as being true to your marriage, that's a weak excuse - I've even seen you going to other threads to accuse people of always advising others to leave their marriages.

There's something broken about you, regardless of your really impressive ability to twist a disaster into a possible victory. There's nothing in this marriage for you, and it isn't even your wife's fault - she's simply trying her best to sort herself out. It's all your own fault.

Accept that your marriage is over. Sit down and have a talk - assist her if you can, hell, I give my well above what the mediator advised every month, and still send something extra if she needs it. Find a situation that suits both of you - me and the ex currently co-habit because we believe it works best for the kids. But you need to stop holding on to this dream of a reconciliation, or agree to her terms and conditions.

She doesn't want to sleep with you. Fact. If she becomes financially stable, she'll probably leave you. Fact. You have absolutely no respect for yourself (which is the real reason you're trying to fix this), so fix that. Fixing yourself is more likely to fix your marriage than any negotiation or "talks" will.
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Old 11-27-2013, 02:04 PM   #207 (permalink)
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Wilderness: I don't dismiss your opinion out of hand, but I do give more credence to a local friend or family member who has experienced and witnessed the events in my marriage first hand. Who wouldn't? Whose story would you put more faith in, a war reporter who rides into battle with the 1st Division of the US Army, or the blogger who tries to share the same story based on what he read from the war reporter? That isn't a slight against you guys at all. All you guys have is my side of the story, from my perspective alone, in my enormously long winded writing style. That's true of anyone here on TAM, we always only get one perception of one side of a story, so it's generally best to offer thoughts/advice that recognize that there could be other elements involved that we aren't aware of that could completely change the situation. Frankly right now I am more apt to think that I've just done a crappy job of trying to explain things here, and have probably allowed my own ego to twist things in such a way as to make her and I out to be something we're not.

Caladan: Maybe I do need to return to independent (or try group) counseling. Not long after she left back in 2010, I started IC about once a week, sometimes every other week, and kept at it for about nine months. I learned a lot about myself in those sessions, learned to forgive myself for my mistakes, forgive her as well, and see a lot of things very differently now. Since then I've read a lot of very good books, including most of the ones that are often mentioned here on TAM. I've also become good friends with our old marriage counselor who I still speak to about my marital stuff from time to time, and have another very good friend who is a pastoral counselor who also offers insight. But certainly there might be more I could gain from more IC, and I will consider that.
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Old 11-27-2013, 02:25 PM   #208 (permalink)
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I think nearly all the advice I've received here in the last week or so, or likely longer, has involved some variation of "Kick your horrible wife out, file for divorce immediately and never look back!"

I posted this in the reconciliation forum because that is precisely what my wife and I are trying to do. I would appreciate comments/thoughts/advice that might be helpful towards THAT purpose, reconciliation. I'm tired of trying to explain why I want to reconcile with her. I know many of you are trying to be helpful when you suggest that I shouldn't, likely out of a belief that we will fail, that I'm wasting my time, that the odds aren't in my favor, etc. Let me be clear, I'm quite fully aware of my situation, the odds, etc. and am perfectly comfortable with the possibility (or even likelihood as some of you may see it) of failing. This has been my life for several years now and I still have no regrets, and believe that I won't have any regrets down the road should things not work out the way I hope they will.

There is no need to repeat over and over how you think I am crazy, fooled, manipulated, etc. Please consider myself duly put on notice that TAM believes me to be crazy and that my wife is a *****, ****, terrible mother and wife, and incapable of ever becoming more than those things. I get it.
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Old 11-27-2013, 02:33 PM   #209 (permalink)
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Good luck CD.
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Old 11-27-2013, 02:34 PM   #210 (permalink)
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I think nearly all the advice I've received here in the last week or so, or likely longer, has involved some variation of "Kick your horrible wife out, file for divorce immediately and never look back!"

I posted this in the reconciliation forum because that is precisely what my wife and I are trying to do. I would appreciate comments/thoughts/advice that might be helpful towards THAT purpose, reconciliation. I'm tired of trying to explain why I want to reconcile with her. I know many of you are trying to be helpful when you suggest that I shouldn't, likely out of a belief that we will fail, that I'm wasting my time, that the odds aren't in my favor, etc. Let me be clear, I'm quite fully aware of my situation, the odds, etc. and am perfectly comfortable with the possibility (or even likelihood as some of you may see it) of failing. This has been my life for several years now and I still have no regrets, and believe that I won't have any regrets down the road should things not work out the way I hope they will.

There is no need to repeat over and over how you think I am crazy, fooled, manipulated, etc. Please consider myself duly put on notice that TAM believes me to be crazy and that my wife is a *****, ****, terrible mother and wife, and incapable of ever becoming more than those things. I get it.
Good point.

I still feel that should be secondary - you can fix yourself and not her.

My suggestion of course, would be to get on the 180. You've told her what you want. No need to discuss it further. Start working on becoming the best you that you can be. Put yourself in a position where other women find you desirable. Negotiate from a postition of strength.
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