ReconciliationThis forum is for those focused on reconciliation and success stories from people who have been through separation and reconciled successfully.
I think one thing that would be more helpful than ANYTHING else I could say/do, would be if she could get into some kind of counseling. I think independent would be best, but marriage counseling would be helpful too. I'm pretty confident that the reason she isn't or hasn't been willing to do either is that she is afraid of being forced to face her past hurts, her guilt/shame, her depression, etc. I think sitting in front of someone who will pick apart her past and point out areas where she needs to make uncomfortable efforts/improvements will just come across as judgements to her, will trigger her feelings of shame, etc. She can't stand the feeling of someone pointing out a fault or area where she needs to change, as it triggers either intensive defensiveness or immediate tears.
If any of you have ever found yourself in a really bad financial situation and the debt collectors start calling, you might be able to relate. Bills are past due, loans are missing payments, soon they'll go to collection agencies and incur enormous penalties, your credit is going to be ruined, they are calling multiple times a day, you stop answering any unknown or 1-888 numbers, the stress is awful. You know what you SHOULD be doing. You should be cutting back your expenses, you should be taking their calls and trying to work out payment agreements, or maybe talk to a lawyer about bankruptcy, or seek credit counseling or sell off some assets or move to a cheaper home, etc. Maybe you've lost your job as well. For a lot of people though, it's all just so depressing that you just stop taking the calls, don't make any efforts to resolve the issues, and just let everything fall apart. You struggle to face the mess you are in. You grow defensive, angry, frustrated, embarrassed, etc. It almost becomes easier to just shut down and ignore everything, even if you know in the back of your mind that doing so is a mistake and will make things worse in the long run.
I know I have absolutely been in that situation myself. It's awful, and I've gone into that mode of ignoring the problem, even when I know that just biting the bullet and facing the problem head on would make things much better in the long run (though not immediately) and it's just too much to deal with. I feel like that is where she is at right now. I think she feels intense guilt/shame over things she's done in the past, and knowing that she is not being a good wife to me. She knows she is in a passionless marriage. She knows that the stress of it all causes her to be depressed, quick to anger and unhappy around her child. When I remind her that she's been forgiven for her past mistakes, she doesn't believe me because she can't believe that I could ever really give her a "blank slate". When I say she is beautiful, that I love her, that she is sexy, etc. she doesn't believe me because she can't believe any such good things about herself. If anything, it more likely makes her suspicious that I am trying to manipulate her in some way. The notion of seeing a therapist who will try to make her face these demons, show her how she is hurting herself and others whom she cares about, make her take uncomfortable steps out of her comfort zone, and make her feel even more guilty for it all, just naturally makes her have zero interest in seeing anyone for help. And anyone or anything that tries to push her in a direction that would be uncomfortable in this area is aggressively repulsed. So again, even knowing that it might be the right thing to do, that it should be helpful in the long run, it's just such an overwhelmingly unpleasant thought that it becomes easier to just ignore it all and coast.
In that type of situation, I think if I were to just push her as hard as I can, she'll just react the same way I would have in the past to a bill collector calling me with threats of financial ruin. (who am I kidding, I still get those calls now) It'll just be easier to let the marriage fall apart, even though (I'm convinced) she doesn't actually want that to happen at all. It's that lie we might sometimes tell ourselves of, that what is asked of us is just too difficult to bear, so we're powerless. For her I'd imagine she might feel like, "I know it's bad, but there isn't anything I can really do about it. I can't make my depression go away. If he can't wait any longer, then he'll just have to do whatever he feels is right for him, because I can't be who he wants me to be right now." She just doesn't have the strength to do what it takes to save it on her own. So my pushing her hard right now, I think, would just make her give up. Certainly you could argue that I might be better off letting her give up and go find someone else for happiness if she isn't willing to step up right this minute. In my mind however, I'd rather put my effort into helping her heal and recover from her demons, whatever that may take.
Again, if she ever told me, or I ever thought, that she just doesn't love me, just doesn't care about our marriage, that she wants a divorce, or even doesn't love me enough to be even a decent spouse to me, then I would certainly give up and move on. I reached that very point about 18 months ago before she returned to convince me otherwise. My wife wants us to have a great marriage, she wants things to be much better than they are today, she's just too emotionally weak and afraid to allow herself to be vulnerable enough for that healing to begin. That's my opinion, and the opinion of two of two people who are closest to us. (One being my best friend, the other being our former marriage counselor who is also a friend now)
The bottom line is, she has no intimacy problems. Someone with intimacy problems wouldn't be seeking sex elsewhere. She's just messing with your mind, and this particular excuse worked on you. She'd have used another if it hadn't.
CD, you are a thoughtful guy. But set all the analysis aside. You need to tell your wife to come and sit on the sofa with you. You need to put your arm around her. If you cannot caress her cheek or squeeze her hip, then you are out in the cold. I am not talkng about wild monkey sex, just simple affection.
If you wait for her to initiate when will it happen? Maybe never.
You need to touch her. If she finds you repulsive you need to say, "Sorry you feel that way."
Read Jerry123. In the end after ages of bad vibes from his wife he spelt it out, divorce. She changed after that. No guarantee that your situation will end well but dragging it out too long is not good.
Wilderness: Again, do you understand how this statement, "The point being, any excuse she makes about not being able to handle intimacy are completely specious as she had no problem having sex with a child molester." sounds? At the very least the "child molester" part. First, it implies that she knew he was a wannabe child molester (again, he was not accused of actually successfully touching anyone) before sleeping with him, and was comfortable with that. Second, it implies that she views me as less worthy of her sexuality than a child molester. I don't think there is any reason to add that "child molester" bit to the end of that sentence. Your point could be made that as recently as two years ago she was in some form of sexual relationship with someone else, so why not now with me? (A question I have already answered, that what makes it different is that she has since then been betrayed yet again by the convicted pedophile, and that I am a former "abuser" of her. HUGE differences)
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In my opinion, the fact that he is a child molester is very relevant. You said yourself that he is a creepy dude. If she can have sex with a creepy child molester AFTER being betrayed by all of these men her whole life, she can certainly have sex with you. Why do you not see this?
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Guys, I know we all see it here all the time, but I really think something different is going on here. This isn't just a case of her having a low libido and not respecting or caring enough for me to overcome that for my sake. I see that sort of situation all the time too. This is a scenario where, anytime I introduce the topic in any way, you can see every part of her basically close off and go into a hurt/defensive position. She looks/acts afraid, like she is being asked to do something that she is deeply hurt by or worried about, guilt/shame ridden too. I can very clearly tell that her "guilt/shame meter" is nearly always full because she can't process that out, and this becomes depression and an intense fear of facing it.
No, nothing different is going on here. Here reactions are manipulation attempts, nothing more. Having sex with one's husband is not nearly the dangerous arduous journey that you portray it to be. It's actually a really simple and really easy thing to do.
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If she were responding callously, with a flippant attitude, hard no's with little or no explanation, or ignoring me altogether, or some other variation, I might agree with you.
She is responding callously. That's the point. She doesn't care that this is hurting you and it's killing your marriage. She is doing nothing to address this issue. An issue that is an absolutely critical component of any marriage.
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Or if I felt in ANY WAY that there was even a remote chance that she was interested in or involved with anyone else. I just don't feel like that is the case here. Heck, if she and I ever do split up/divorce, without her having found any way to address her depression, I have a hard time imagining her getting involved with anyone new either.
She had 3 affairs and 1 with a child molester. Don't delude yourself, if you break up she'll be getting involved with someone new.
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The marriage group that she signed us up for starts in a few weeks so I'm hopeful something positive will come from that. Perhaps that might even convince her that she needn't fear marriage counseling
So you've resigned yourself to no sex for another few weeks? Sad.
I think one thing that would be more helpful than ANYTHING else I could say/do, would be if she could get into some kind of counseling. I think independent would be best, but marriage counseling would be helpful too. I'm pretty confident that the reason she isn't or hasn't been willing to do either is that she is afraid of being forced to face her past hurts, her guilt/shame, her depression, etc. I think sitting in front of someone who will pick apart her past and point out areas where she needs to make uncomfortable efforts/improvements will just come across as judgements to her, will trigger her feelings of shame, etc. She can't stand the feeling of someone pointing out a fault or area where she needs to change, as it triggers either intensive defensiveness or immediate tears.
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I highly doubt that marriage counseling will help. This has nothing at all to do with your wife's past. This is very simple. Your wife is refusing to engage a physical relationship with you on any level. The solution doesn't require marriage counseling or talking at all, it requires your wife to act.
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f any of you have ever found yourself in a really bad financial situation and the debt collectors start calling, you might be able to relate. Bills are past due, loans are missing payments, soon they'll go to collection agencies and incur enormous penalties, your credit is going to be ruined, they are calling multiple times a day, you stop answering any unknown or 1-888 numbers, the stress is awful. You know what you SHOULD be doing. You should be cutting back your expenses, you should be taking their calls and trying to work out payment agreements, or maybe talk to a lawyer about bankruptcy, or seek credit counseling or sell off some assets or move to a cheaper home, etc. Maybe you've lost your job as well. For a lot of people though, it's all just so depressing that you just stop taking the calls, don't make any efforts to resolve the issues, and just let everything fall apart. You struggle to face the mess you are in. You grow defensive, angry, frustrated, embarrassed, etc. It almost becomes easier to just shut down and ignore everything, even if you know in the back of your mind that doing so is a mistake and will make things worse in the long run.
I know I have absolutely been in that situation myself. It's awful, and I've gone into that mode of ignoring the problem, even when I know that just biting the bullet and facing the problem head on would make things much better in the long run (though not immediately) and it's just too much to deal with. I feel like that is where she is at right now. I think she feels intense guilt/shame over things she's done in the past, and knowing that she is not being a good wife to me. She knows she is in a passionless marriage. She knows that the stress of it all causes her to be depressed, quick to anger and unhappy around her child. When I remind her that she's been forgiven for her past mistakes, she doesn't believe me because she can't believe that I could ever really give her a "blank slate". When I say she is beautiful, that I love her, that she is sexy, etc. she doesn't believe me because she can't believe any such good things about herself. If anything, it more likely makes her suspicious that I am trying to manipulate her in some way. The notion of seeing a therapist who will try to make her face these demons, show her how she is hurting herself and others whom she cares about, make her take uncomfortable steps out of her comfort zone, and make her feel even more guilty for it all, just naturally makes her have zero interest in seeing anyone for help. And anyone or anything that tries to push her in a direction that would be uncomfortable in this area is aggressively repulsed. So again, even knowing that it might be the right thing to do, that it should be helpful in the long run, it's just such an overwhelmingly unpleasant thought that it becomes easier to just ignore it all and coast.
In that type of situation, I think if I were to just push her as hard as I can, she'll just react the same way I would have in the past to a bill collector calling me with threats of financial ruin. (who am I kidding, I still get those calls now) It'll just be easier to let the marriage fall apart, even though (I'm convinced) she doesn't actually want that to happen at all. It's that lie we might sometimes tell ourselves of, that what is asked of us is just too difficult to bear, so we're powerless. For her I'd imagine she might feel like, "I know it's bad, but there isn't anything I can really do about it. I can't make my depression go away. If he can't wait any longer, then he'll just have to do whatever he feels is right for him, because I can't be who he wants me to be right now." She just doesn't have the strength to do what it takes to save it on her own. So my pushing her hard right now, I think, would just make her give up. Certainly you could argue that I might be better off letting her give up and go find someone else for happiness if she isn't willing to step up right this minute. In my mind however, I'd rather put my effort into helping her heal and recover from her demons, whatever that may take.
Your comparison of someone in debt to your wife is a horrible analogy. A better comparison would be someone in debt that has the money to pay, but refuses to. Your wife could fix this, it's literally as easy as her taking off her clothes and having sex with you, but she refuses. The fact that your wife would actually think there is nothing she can do to change the situation is even more concerning, as that demonstrates mental illness. The reality is that all your wife has to do to fix the situation is to start having a physical relationship with you.
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Again, if she ever told me, or I ever thought, that she just doesn't love me, just doesn't care about our marriage, that she wants a divorce, or even doesn't love me enough to be even a decent spouse to me, then I would certainly give up and move on
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That's exactly what she is telling you, through her actions. Please read this essay concerning female communication and how men interpret it. The Medium is the Message |
A relevant paragraph in the essay:
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More often than not women tell the complete truth with their actions, they just communicate it in a fashion that men can’t or wont understand. As a behaviorist, I’m a firm believer in the psychological principal that the only way to determine genuine motivation and/or intent is to observe the behavior of an individual. All one need do is compare behavior and the results of it to correlate intent. A woman will communicate vast wealths of information and truths to a man if he’s only willing to accept her behavior, not exclusively her words, as the benchmark. He must also understand that the truth she betrays in her behavior is often not what he wants to accept.
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I reached that very point about 18 months ago before she returned to convince me otherwise. My wife wants us to have a great marriage, she wants things to be much better than they are today,
No, sir. Your wife does not want these things. Her actions are screaming that she does not want them at all.
Wilderness, I get a lot of what you are saying. I imagine you are right in a lot of it. A few things I just can't completely agree with however:
You've got to understand that I'm not just "some guy." In the event of divorce, she might be able to go meet someone else and build a healthy sexual relationship with him in due time, but you can't argue that her choosing to be sexual with him is no different than the same possibility with me, because in a very real sense, I am a former abuser of her. We have a long negative history (you can't deny that much) so to compare me with anyone else who has a blank slate, including the wannabe child molester before he became a wannabe child molester, isn't representative of reality.
Your continued assertion that this should be as simple as going home and saying, "Take off your clothes and get in bed, or move out." is just insanity. Further, even if she did agree to do so (out of fear), I can't imagine how that could lead towards a healthy/happy marriage. What woman wants to be married to a man who essentially rapes them at will? Might it get me laid once or twice? Maybe, but my goal isn't to get laid today or tomorrow, it's to rebuild a happy marriage.
The whole motivation/intent via actions stuff is interesting though. I'm definitely willing to consider that.
In any case, I still need to find a way to get through to her that is something between, "Take off your clothes now or move out" and "You can have all the time in the world, don't mind me."
Wilderness, I get a lot of what you are saying. I imagine you are right in a lot of it. A few things I just can't completely agree with however:
You've got to understand that I'm not just "some guy." In the event of divorce, she might be able to go meet someone else and build a healthy sexual relationship with him in due time, but you can't argue that her choosing to be sexual with him is no different than the same possibility with me, because in a very real sense, I am a former abuser of her. We have a long negative history (you can't deny that much) so to compare me with anyone else who has a blank slate, including the wannabe child molester before he became a wannabe child molester, isn't representative of reality.
Your continued assertion that this should be as simple as going home and saying, "Take off your clothes and get in bed, or move out." is just insanity. Further, even if she did agree to do so (out of fear), I can't imagine how that could lead towards a healthy/happy marriage. What woman wants to be married to a man who essentially rapes them at will? Might it get me laid once or twice? Maybe, but my goal isn't to get laid today or tomorrow, it's to rebuild a happy marriage.
The whole motivation/intent via actions stuff is interesting though. I'm definitely willing to consider that.
In any case, I still need to find a way to get through to her that is something between, "Take off your clothes now or move out" and "You can have all the time in the world, don't mind me."
CD, I love that you're sensitive to her needs. But I think this particular issue is something that is a question for yourself. What do you need to want to continue with this marriage? You need to articulate that to yourself and then her and let the chips fall where they may. And when you talk to her, it is simply a statement about your needs and she can decide what she's going to do about it, and then you can decide what to do about what she decides.
I recognize some of what you're doing is stuff I did with my stbxh - trying to be sensitive and patient as a means of controlling the other person's reaction. It's not being true to yourself when you do that.
Mupostori: Ha, that actually came up the other day. She said her birth control (depo injection) "expires" in about two weeks and said she doesn't plan to go get it again.
My feeling now is that I don't want to get laid one time just to knock her up and then continue in a sexless marriage. I DO think that if she could bring herself to be sexual just a little bit that it could do a lot to rebuild a bond between us, but I don't think I can risk that.
I'm surprised she let it slip that she intends to get pregnant, because you have to remember that 'hints' translated into man-speak are in fact definite decisions.
You need to watch yourself now. I realise you care about her, but if she falls pregnant you will have 18 long years to think about what life could have been like, if you weren't nursing someone you can't fix and who goes out looking for trouble.
Personally I don't see the pregnancy thing happening, regardless of what she has said. Back when she said that January 14' might be a target timeframe, it was because I initiated the conversation and asked for a timeframe. She hasn't brought it up since. I asked her about her birth control last week and that is when she mentioned that it expires in a couple of weeks and that she doesn't yet have an appointment for re-upping it.
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation 
