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post #121 of 295 (permalink) Old 10-31-2013, 10:56 PM
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

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Originally Posted by MEM2020 View Post
Problem is, your wife is getting the whole package right now without having to give anything. She has little to no incentive to change.
Sounds very familiar. Keep an eye on this,..... you are still a family, so she probably see's nothing wrong with living with her family,... but not engaging in your marriage. That is no way to have a marriage,.... so keep an eye on whether things seem to improve, or stay stagnant.

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post #122 of 295 (permalink) Old 10-31-2013, 11:03 PM
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

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To CD:
Put the moves on her and when she shoots you down or tries to shame you into backing off, don't back down. There is nothing to be ashamed of...it is perfectly normal and healthy to expect sex from your wife. Period.
Wilderness...you realize rape is rape right? Even if you're married? People have a right to expect sex n a marriage, they don't have a right to force or extort it.
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post #123 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-01-2013, 10:33 AM
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

CD:

I am concerned about you. It is so obvious you want your marriage to work out, but it is not so obvious that your wife does.

That does not mean that she doesn't want things to work out. It could be that she is seriously depressed or has some other emotional health issue.

Still, for your own emotional health you need to find out what her intentions are.

Is she in it for the long haul trying to save the marriage and just taking it slow.

Or, is she still deciding.

You have the right to know.

Also, locked phone or computer is not GOOD sign. It may well be innocent, but given as she has cheated, she needs to WILLINGLY be an open book to you.

Can you find a qualified infidelity counselor.

It took me 15 interviews before I found an experienced infidelity counselor.

I am a neuro psychiatrist. I study the physical function of the brain, so although not a talk therapist, I did know a lot of them, and it still took me 15 tries to find a good counselor.

A counselor experienced in infidelity and/or sex addiction is a must in your situation.

Can you afford counseling?

Your wife needs to start compromising. A counselor can help her see that, IMO.

Also you need to lobby for the sex issue. I am not advocating rape, but she needs to understand that for a successful marital bond, you to need to start easing back into sex.
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post #124 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-02-2013, 04:00 PM
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

My husband and I have been estranged from each other for over two years. We talk on a daily base. We are starting mc again,& me ic. I have been married to this man for 27 year, and pretty much had sex 2 to 3 times a week throughout our marriage.

We are just in the early stages of seeing if we can get back together, and there is no way am I having sex with this man until I am ready. I realize, my husband the ww where op wife was. But, all the talk in the world isnt going to get wife to give other than duty sex, until she feels ready.

~sammy
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post #125 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-02-2013, 04:51 PM
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

Sammy,
Do I understand correctly that your H was the cheater?

If so, would you allow him to move back in and deny you transparency by keeping his phone and computer locked down?


QUOTE=sammy3;5288633]My husband and I have been estranged from each other for over two years. We talk on a daily base. We are starting mc again,& me ic. I have been married to this man for 27 year, and pretty much had sex 2 to 3 times a week throughout our marriage.

We are just in the early stages of seeing if we can get back together, and there is no way am I having sex with this man until I am ready. I realize, my husband the ww where op wife was. But, all the talk in the world isnt going to get wife to give other than duty sex, until she feels ready.

~sammy[/QUOTE]
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post #126 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-03-2013, 08:53 AM
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

Yes, I would, because I buy into amp, lord, etc... If he's going to cheap again, he's going to cheat again. We all need privacy, me included. I'm not going to give transparency either. We respected each other's space before, I'm not not giving it up mine now for his...

See, this is another lose-lose for the bs... Yes, we get to give the gife of R but its at a steep cost to the bs. I just wish mine never wanted to come back, never wanted to try to work at the marriage,never showed remorse,never believe we'll get through this,never was sorry,never realized what he was doing was wrong, wish he had just stayed w the ow and lived happily ever after, and maybe then, I could too.

~sammy
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post #127 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-03-2013, 11:21 AM
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

Sammy,
Sorry to hear that your recon is not at a good place right now. All I can say is that if my W had a PA, and then stated that she wanted to recon, came home and was avoiding all physical contact, there is no way I would tolerate a refusal to provide transparency.

The red flags on this thread are all consistent. She can't admit fault/apologize because it 'hurts to much'?

I have a huge amount of respect for Amp. He is tough, strong, resourceful and determined.

He was the 'adult', in the recon. And there must be at least one. This is what I mean by that: He fixed his stuff first, and only the did he gradually but firmly apply pressure.

And at least twice, he showed the courage needed to risk losing the marriage, in an attempt to save the marriage.

I don't actually recall how he discovered that his W had reconnected with her EA, and was in a false recon.



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Yes, I would, because I buy into amp, lord, etc... If he's going to cheap again, he's going to cheat again. We all need privacy, me included. I'm not going to give transparency either. We respected each other's space before, I'm not not giving it up mine now for his...

See, this is another lose-lose for the bs... Yes, we get to give the gife of R but its at a steep cost to the bs. I just wish mine never wanted to come back, never wanted to try to work at the marriage,never showed remorse,never believe we'll get through this,never was sorry,never realized what he was doing was wrong, wish he had just stayed w the ow and lived happily ever after, and maybe then, I could too.

~sammy
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post #128 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-03-2013, 12:32 PM
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

Ive been married for almost 30 years now, and feel lucky that I had that as many here dont even see 10 yrs. ((because they were really good years until 9-11 came along))

If we make it back after almost 3 yrs away, its because its ok. We'll make it work. But I'm not going to be his policewomen,nor he mine. No thank you, I've already raised a son.

We've lost so much already that if the passwords are going to be that big of a deal well then what's the use? He knows he's very lucky his family is still even speaking with him, and if we return and he's going to continue to be an a**, well, I'm smarter now, and he knows it... "Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you."

~sammy
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post #129 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-05-2013, 10:57 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

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Personally, this would have irritated me, too, if I was her. I would be thinking, "You have had ALL NIGHT to ask me for this, and you wait until NOW to ask? I need at least 7 hours of sleep to be functional at work tomorrow, and now I'm only going to get 6 hours because you want me to give you a freaking massage? Do you have any idea how inconsiderate and selfish you are to ask me this right now?" But I would do it because I wouldn't want to rock the boat.

My STBXH pulled stuff like this all the time (after he has spent HOURS ignoring me while he played video games), and it was a very passive-aggressive way for him to communicate that his time and his needs were more important than mine. (And he continued to do this time and again, even after I had explained to him multiple times why it bothered me, and offered alternate solutions.)

I'm not trying to come down on you here, or say that's what you're trying to do. I just wanted to let you know how she may view it. Timing is more important than most people (men?) realize or consider.

Yep, I totally understand. I'd say our situation was a bit different because I have asked for things like that before during otherwise "opportune" times and gotten the same response. In this case too, we were laying there talking about something and my neck popped loud enough that she could hear it too. That inspired me to ask. But yes, I definitely see your point.
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post #130 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-05-2013, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

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Sammy,
Sorry to hear that your recon is not at a good place right now. All I can say is that if my W had a PA, and then stated that she wanted to recon, came home and was avoiding all physical contact, there is no way I would tolerate a refusal to provide transparency.

The red flags on this thread are all consistent. She can't admit fault/apologize because it 'hurts to much'?

I have a huge amount of respect for Amp. He is tough, strong, resourceful and determined.

He was the 'adult', in the recon. And there must be at least one. This is what I mean by that: He fixed his stuff first, and only the did he gradually but firmly apply pressure.

And at least twice, he showed the courage needed to risk losing the marriage, in an attempt to save the marriage.

I don't actually recall how he discovered that his W had reconnected with her EA, and was in a false recon.
MEM & Others: Thank you for the kind words, and I do have an update.

For starters, the locked computer. Turns out she locked the computer because she was tired of our daughter taking it, using it, and then leaving it somewhere where my wife can't find it and often with the battery nearly dead, and sometimes finding that some important school document that she was working on is gone. We gave our daughter my wife's old laptop and she is allowed to use that one, but she is terrible about putting it back on the charger when she is finished, so often times would just take the wife's new laptop. This is what she told me when I brought up the password on her computer, and she shared the password with me, which turned out is the same password that we usually use when we are securing a device from our daughter. (My tablet has the same lock/password on it for the same reason) So I'm thoroughly convinced for now that this was not her attempt to hide anything. Thus far, she has never once tried to stop me or express concern when I have asked to use her computer. (Her laptop is pretty new, mine is six years old and chained to a desk in our basement so when I seldom need an internet device with a keyboard, I ussually just use hers)

I'm not sure which part of my story you are referring to about her reconnecting with her EA... I believe all of my wife's affairs were physical, not EA only. I also frequently number them out of order, especially since I found out about the first one about 18 months after it happened, and 3-6 months after I found out about the 2nd and 3rd. I found out about the 2nd by checking her computer, the 3rd and 4th by checking her phone.

Thus far, I have never seen a password of any kind on her phone. Further, she knows that once upon a time I had put a keylogger on her computer and tried to put on one her phone, which I agree was taking it a little too far. She trusts me now with her devices as it relates to that. But with that said, I still agree with Sammy's approach above. If she wants to cheat, she'll find a way to cheat. Whether I catch it immediately or a few weeks down the road, it doesn't make much difference. Living in a "surveillance" marriage can only go on for so long before everyone involved is resentful of each other and it's certainly not conducive to rebuilding love/trust. Secretly locked devices are completely different of course, as has been noted, but I think I've found a comfortable position in the middle as far as transparency.


A couple months ago I read "Married Man's Sex Primer 2011" which was a fantastic read that I recommend to anyone. In the past, I have read tons of other marriage books from the Five Love Languages to Love & Respect, to saving broken marriages books like Love Must Be Tough, Winning your Wife Back, I Don't Want a Divorce, etc. This past week I finally started reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and it too is a winner as far as I can see. I'm exactly 44% through it according to my kindle, and I am already seeing a lot of value in it. I think for men in my position, NMMNG and the Married Man's Sex Primer 2011 standard reading assignments.

I think No More Mr. Nice Guy describes me well, as far as my feeling a need to be the "perfect man" for any woman, mostly based on what men have been told by women since the beginning of time. In Married Man's Sex Primer, we learn that women don't REALLY want the "perfect men" they often describe. They want that at times, and other times they want the classical Alpha male that is so often ostracized, and it's our job to be able to switch between the two. It also describes how "Nice Guys" will often go after women who are "damaged goods," such as victims of abuse, poor childhoods, no father, etc. Looking back at my wife and girlfriends before her, most of them grew up without much of a father figure, maybe had been raped or worse, my wife had a baby that she gave up for adoption when she was 16, etc. I have also definitely had a habit of covering up my mistakes, telling white lies to get out of a situation that might make me look bad, and resented her enormously for not putting in the kind of effort that I have put in. The "Covert contracts" bit was pretty interesting as well, which I'm sure I have employed many times, with the current example being my "no sex" assurance that I made to her, with the "unspoken but generally hinted at" end of the year timeframe.

Anyways, I'm going to keep reading the book. I also told her today that I believe we need to combine our finances in some form. I have known lots of couples who mostly manage separate finances, and we did it that way for the first few years of our marriage until my wife had trouble avoiding overdrafts on her account and we combined our finances with my bank. Right now though, I pay the mortgage, all of the bills, groceries, I usually pay when we eat out, plus the usual other stuff I need like gas for my car, occasional lunches, etc. From what I can tell, my wife pays for her own usual stuff (gas, lunches, etc.), most of my daughter's Boys & Girls club fee's (about $25/week) and the rest is sort of her "fun money", which admittedly often gets spent on stuff for the house, not just for her.

Nonetheless, I often struggle to get everything paid that needs paid, and frequently get creditor phone calls that stress me out. Not long before she moved back home in June, we discussed finances and she said very firmly that she was not willing to combine finances again because, as with sex, she wasn't at a place where she could trust me fully just yet. She wanted to maintain that small element of independence. Yesterday she told me about a whole bunch of school fee's and payments that are due really soon that she doesn't have the money for and is stressed. She didn't ask me for the money specifically, but that was clearly the reason for telling me the situation and describing her stress. I told her that if those things need paid, we can get them paid (with my meager savings) but at this point I'll need to insist that we combine our finances "in some form" going forward. That could mean going back to us just sharing one checking & savings account ideally, or I might even be comfortable with keeping the separate accounts as long as I have access to her account as well. (She already has access to mine, I gave it to her months ago, in typical "Nice Guy" fashion hoping it would get her to share her account access with me as well)

We'll see what happens. She did say "Love you" when she gave me a hug goodbye this morning, but I can't dwell on that.

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post #131 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-05-2013, 11:57 AM
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

Dude-

If you are paying all of the bills your situation is a lot worse than I originally thought. No way would I pay for her school stuff as long as she is not having sex with you.
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post #132 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-05-2013, 12:09 PM
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

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Anyways, I'm going to keep reading the book. I also told her today that I believe we need to combine our finances in some form. I have known lots of couples who mostly manage separate finances, and we did it that way for the first few years of our marriage until my wife had trouble avoiding overdrafts on her account and we combined our finances with my bank. Right now though, I pay the mortgage, all of the bills, groceries, I usually pay when we eat out, plus the usual other stuff I need like gas for my car, occasional lunches, etc. From what I can tell, my wife pays for her own usual stuff (gas, lunches, etc.), most of my daughter's Boys & Girls club fee's (about $25/week) and the rest is sort of her "fun money", which admittedly often gets spent on stuff for the house, not just for her.

Nonetheless, I often struggle to get everything paid that needs paid, and frequently get creditor phone calls that stress me out. Not long before she moved back home in June, we discussed finances and she said very firmly that she was not willing to combine finances again because, as with sex, she wasn't at a place where she could trust me fully just yet. She wanted to maintain that small element of independence. Yesterday she told me about a whole bunch of school fee's and payments that are due really soon that she doesn't have the money for and is stressed. She didn't ask me for the money specifically, but that was clearly the reason for telling me the situation and describing her stress. I told her that if those things need paid, we can get them paid (with my meager savings) but at this point I'll need to insist that we combine our finances "in some form" going forward. That could mean going back to us just sharing one checking & savings account ideally, or I might even be comfortable with keeping the separate accounts as long as I have access to her account as well. (She already has access to mine, I gave it to her months ago, in typical "Nice Guy" fashion hoping it would get her to share her account access with me as well)
You guys need to have a joint account, at least for the joint expenses -- she's been moved back in now for how long? Anything relating to the kids should come out of the joint account; it's unfair if one parent or the other is paying more than their fair share (or even THINKS that s/he is paying more than the fair share), and that will breed resentment.

Even if not going fully joint, you guys need to sit down and draw up a budget and determine how much each of you will put into the joint account, and nothing comes out that isn't budgeted. And you can each maintain separate accounts to maintain independence. This is how a lot of couples do it.

There's no reason that one or the other of you is getting stressed out over things that should be joint expenditures, especially if together you have enough money to cover the expenses.

Honestly, the two of you should have talked about this months ago before/when she moved back in. The Money Talk is one of the most important discussion a couple can have when moving in together, whether it's after a separation, or if it's a couple just moving in together for the first time.

PS And you have to decide firmly what is a joint expense and what is not. I'm with wilderness, I don't think HER school expenses should be joint. The first time I read that, I thought it was for the kids.

~Happily un-married since December 9, 2013~
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post #133 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-05-2013, 02:12 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

Just to clarify on the expenses stuff:

We've never been great with budgeting. We have some CC debt and student loans that we've struggled with, but we've never really had a budget at all. So just FYI, we're already starting from a place of poor money skills.

Next, my wife only works part time while she is in school full time. She probably averages about 8-12 hours a week at $16/hr (before taxes) as an LPN at a nursing home. So you add that up and it's only about $450 - $600 or so per month after taxes. From that she pays her own gas to and from school/clinicals (about 30 miles each way) and work, lunches for herself, our daughters boys & girls club fees, and is regularly getting things for the house. (Lately she's been buying picture frames and hanging family photos all over this wall in our living room, there are probably 50 of them so far) Plus other occasional purchases like shoes, scrubs, miscellaneous stuff our daughter needs for school, etc. Take all of that out, and there isn't much left from her $450-$600/mo. So my point in the last post wasn't that I think she is hoarding her money and refusing to help out. I make 4-5x what she makes. My concern has been that I don't think there should be any such thing as "my" money or "her" money, it should be OURS, and we should both be responsible and accountable to each other with how it is spent. And yes, it bothers me when I can't pay a $100 electric bill and I see her walk in with 10 new picture frames and a new pair of running shoes for $100. It's not that she she is spending wastefully or extravagantly or anything like that. I don't think there is anything with her getting a $50 pair of shoes and a bunch of picture frames for our wall, and she wouldn't have made those purchases if she knew that I was struggling with the electric bill. So that part is on ME for not making those needs clear, but it does make me feel extremely uncomfortable having to express that I don't have the money to pay a particular bill, but I don't think I should have to ask her for money either. If we can merge and the decide together what our expenses will be, then it doesn't have to be an issue going forward.

And heck, I know that I could use some additional accountability too. I ordered a new Xbox game last week for $30 when I have several that I haven't played yet, and I have bills due this week that I might not be able to cover without dipping into savings. That's not responsible, and I know that I wouldn't have done it if I knew that my wife kept a close eye on the account too. Personal responsibility and accountability are always good things.

Lastly, for the most part I think 95% of her school expenses have been getting paid for with her student loans (which are in her name only. That's relevant in the event of a divorce), which while we were separated, she unfortunately was taking out the maximum amount in order to live off of. (In the beginning of the separation I had wondered how she was able to so quickly afford to go get an apartment and live comfortably only working 15hrs/week at $9.50/hr. Now I know...) Whenever random non-tuition/books expenses would pop up, she would pay for them. Once she moved back home, she discussed with me the financial aid situation for this year (which I greatly appreciated her involving me in) and we decided that we didn't need to take out the maximum loan amount and would only take the small grant she got and a small loan to cover the tuition/books.

Not everything goes according to plan however. She found out after the fact that the second segment of her semester requires about $325 in supplies for her clinicals and testing that were not included in the school bill she had received in August. Then she decided she wants to take a Kaplan training course to prepare her for the NCLEX state testing (for nursing certification) which is $379, then has about $100 worth of expenses for her graduation gown, school photos, nursing pin, etc. We didn't account for those when we took the student loan/grant, so they need paid, and I have absolutely no problem helping to pay for these things as they are all perfectly valid. My issue is that I don't feel comfortable paying for these from what has been my own savings that I worked hard for, when I don't also have any way of knowing what her own financial picture looks like. So we've had separate finances all this time, and if she wants my help with MY money, then I feel that we need to merge finances and both be accountable to each other.

So that is pretty much what I proposed today. That I understand why she was hesitant to merge finances at the beginning but enough time has passed that we need to get this figured out. For the sake of making smarter financial decisions, reducing stress/conflict, and as a further show of commitment/trust.

Lastly, I will disagree with you both (feminist and Wilderness) as it relates to a spouses school expenses being considered a "joint" expense or not. A spouse going to school to provide for a better life for his/her family should be a joint expense if you ask me, especially if part of the arrangement has been that one spouse will work full time while the other spouse focuses on school full time. (Meaning the student spouse probably can't afford the expenses alone anyway) If we were separated, I might agree that the expense should be hers alone depending on the circumstances of the separation. If we head down the divorce trail someday, then I would agree then as well. There is also the fact that back when I was getting my degree, we did have merged finances and we did pay for my school expenses from that, so in that sense she has already chipped in for my schooling.
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post #134 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-05-2013, 02:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

Geez guys I'm so sorry that my posts are always so darn wordy. I do honestly try to cut them down, just not very well apparently. I always appreciate all the advice, thoughts, comments, etc. that I receive. You guys, and this forum, is awesome. Thanks again and as always, apologies for the insane length of my posts!
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post #135 of 295 (permalink) Old 11-05-2013, 02:32 PM
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Re: Wife moving back in after 3+ year separation

Don't apologize. This is your life, your marriage, your story. Every detail counts. Stay strong bud.
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