Porn addiction without ED? - Page 2 - Talk About Marriage
Relationships and Addiction Whether it's drugs, alcohol, gambling, sex, pornography, or anything else, addictions can be detrimental to the health of a relationship.

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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-28-2015, 10:07 PM
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Re: Porn addiction without ED?

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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-02-2015, 01:43 PM
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Re: Porn addiction without ED?

Porn "is" bad all the way around. It is unhealthy to "any" relationship. It's addictive, and consuming. Needs to "stop" for health to be reinstituted.
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-03-2015, 06:03 PM
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Re: Porn addiction without ED?

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Porn "is" bad all the way around. It is unhealthy to "any" relationship. It's addictive, and consuming. Needs to "stop" for health to be reinstituted.
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Well, as the great American spokesman said, "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are NOT entitled to your own facts." (Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

And what you have expressed is a personal opinion, which is not backed up by any current psychological research or clinical studies.

The current DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders -- DSM-5 -- used by psychologists, psychiatrists, and therapists for mental health treatment, to include addiction) does NOT include pornography as an addiction diagnosis. The current DSM-5 does have a new section for "Behavioral Addiction", but only includes "Pathological Gambling" in it at this time. Internet Gaming Disorder is being researched for inclusion within the future DSM. Online pornography viewing is mentioned in the DSM-5 (as far as having potential, if abused, to become a "problematic disorder" (NOT addiction) however even then there is no accepted diagnostic criteria for "problematic pornography disorder" (much less "pornography addiction").

The addition of an addition of "Hypersexual Disorder" (not Addiction) to include a sub-section on "Pornography Disorder" was proposed (by a quite small number of researchers) and debated, however the vast majority of researchers and psychiatrists declined its inclusion citing its failure to meet accepted criteria for meeting qualifications for an addiction, disorder, or having an established diagnostic criteria.

Interestingly, one's degree of religious belief has an extremely strong impact on how THEY define pornography. Note that it is not how the experts define it, but how the individual defines it, with many extremely religious people defining viewing pornography ONE TIME as being "Porn addiction"! This study was conducted just this last year by the prestigious Case Western Reserve University.

Pornography obviously has the ability to negatively effect a relationship however that is based on the involved personalities.

Many couples enjoy watching pornography together as a type of sexual foreplay. In many cases the female also watches pornography (or more frequently reads it... steamy, explicit "romance novels" - such as the immensely popular, best-selling "Fifty Shades of Gray" read mainly by women - are very much indeed pornography - it is NOT just imagery! - though a significant portion of women do watch pornography imagery). Even in cases where only one partner or the other watches (or reads) pornography, it often is not something that the other partner feels threatened by. Especially if the activity is not abused by personality traits.

But this is true of ANY behavioral activity.

The husband who is so involved (for example) with fishing and fishing equipment purchases and fishing club meetings and buying and reading every possible fishing magazine and book, to the point of emotionally stepping away from his wife, is in a behavior activity that IS very definitely problematic to the relationship.

The same would be true of the wife who devotes an inordinate amount of HER time to every possible church activity (and even creates other activities, such as a church women's book club, and church women's crochet and knitting club, etcetera, etcetera - and HAS to be involved in everything on ever occasion!).

In both cases, the activities create an unacceptable distance between the partners and the excessively involved individual is using something else to achieve emotional fulfilment that they should be getting from their partner.... It is a form of EMOTIONAL CHEATING - something that IS recognized by all marital professionals. Lay people tend to think of emotional cheating as strictly involves another person, but it can be one's job, one's outside friends / family, one's hobbies, etcetera.

Obviously if the other partner participates in that activity also to a STRONG degree, then while it may still be a personality dysfunction, at least it is not relationship threatening.

This is NOT a personal opinion, but a well-recognized fact. Someone who looks at abused pornography viewing as such a personality dysfunction is hypocritical if they do not recognize that ANY type of excessive / abused personal behavior is also a personality dysfunction and readily capable of negatively impacting the relationship.

Then there are the REAL (professionally recognized) ADDICTIONS.

Drug Addiction. Alcoholism. Pathological Gambling. Etcetera.

Relationships where one of the partners has such a TRUE addiction are (as any professional expert will attest) are truly "living hell". The various personality trait dysfunctions (though potentially problematic for some relationships) pale in comparison.

In discussions with several psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, and counselors, they not only talk about the extreme difficulties in treating marital problems that involve real addictions as compared to personality trait dysfunctions, but bristle at the thought of any type of comparison between the two... In fact, it was one of those who gave me the illustrations of fishing and church involvement - when carried to extremes and / or abused - as being no different than that of viewing pornography that is also excessive or abused.

Few reported instances of marital counseling therapy that dealt with that had problems due to pornography viewing - however one who did have such a case also alerted me to the Case Western Reserve study and felt that a current case that she had wasn't due to a situation of that type. Again, ALL were emphatic that recognized REAL addictions were vastly more serious scenarios for successful treatment.

As far as "health", I am not sure what your quote meant by that. If referring to mental health, that has been addressed by the above. Viewing pornography is neither an addiction nor a mental disorder (though it can be a personality trait dysfunction in SOME cases). As far as medical health, I have talked now to several medical doctors and have yet to find one who said that viewing pornography (unless carried to an extreme degree due to being a personality trait dysfunction to the point where, for example, one's sleep suffered for a long time period) created medical health problems. None had ever treated a case where there had been such a degree of excessive behavior of viewing pornography or heard of another doctor who had done so (though one had an insomnia patient from excessive online video gaming and another had an insomnia case from a woman who was involved with excessive online gambling - which the DSM-5 does recognize as an addiction... both cases had the doctors working WITH therapists in treating the underlying cause).

So, aside from your PERSONAL opinion, all / any pornography is NOT an addiction or a problem. It is NOT consuming in every case. It is NOT a problem for every relationship. And it does NOT have to stop to "reinstitute" health (what does that even mean???).

And as a counterpoint, the following ARE recognized Mental Health Disorders (that one sees extremely LITTLE discussion about - which leads me to believe that many people are actually ANTI SEX and not truly concerned with the full range of things that negatively impact on marriages / relationships):

1. Female Sexual Arousal Disorder: This mental health condition is not only recognized by the professional manual DSM-5, but also in prior issues of the DSM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female...ousal_disorder

2. Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder: Also listed in the DSM. Prior to DSM-5, it was so my listed as HSDD, but as of DSM-5 it is now listed separately as Male HSDD and Female HSDD (readily the more prevalent of the two).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoac...esire_disorder

Note that these ARE recognized Mental Health Disorders - and that (again) the DSM does not (and has not) recognize(d) pornography (whether audio, imagery, or reading - let's not forget the steamy, explicit romance novels loved by so many women) as an addiction or mental health disorder.

So, if you have a personal problem with an individual with a personality dysfunction trait or are personally against pornography of ANY form or are anti sex or fit into the classification of people (*) identified in the Case Western University study, then so be it. That is a problem, but is an individual problem, an anecdotal report, and not evidence of a full spectrum situation where "one size fits all".

So rather than making such emphatic STATEMENTS as implying fact, I would suggest that such comments be prefaced with "Strictly in my opinion... ".

As Mr. Moynihan said:

"You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."

(BTW, nothing that I have written or quoted is MY opinion. My opinion is my own. I have simply stated facts as reported and recognized by others, by professional experts)

(*) I personally do find it strange that religious people have such a puritanical belief (no pun intended) concerning sex. The Bible is a very sexually themed book (1) and the Song of Songs or Song of Solomon (when read in its original translations before the puritanical re-wording by the Medieval works up to and including the King James Version) is very clearly a story of sexual love between two (apparently pre-marital) lovers. A number of attempts have been made to make it a symbolic story (why so steamy in that case, why not more emotionally romantic rather than sexually romantic?). And of course, all the puritanical re-wording done during the Medieval times (KJV)... I mean, changing the wording of breasts by cling them "fawns" and "does". (2)

(1) Books

The Genesis of Sex
Sex in the Texts
The Earthy Nature of the Bible
God and Sex (Coogan)
The Erotic Word
Sex and the Bible (Ellens)
The Spirituality of Sex
Divine Sex (Thelos)
Sex and God (Ray)
The X-Rated Bible
The Uncensored Bible
Sex Texts from the Bible
Flame of Yahweh
Pregnant Passion
Taboo or Not Taboo
God, Sex, and Women of the Bible
Carnal Israel
Does God Belong in the Bedroom
Sacred Secrets
Yahweh's Wife


Note:
- Kosher Sex
- Kosher Adultery
- Kosher Lust
- Sheets Music (Leman)
- Under the Sheets (Leman)
- Turn Up the Heat (Leman)


(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs

Books:

The Song of Songs (Bloch) (Lyrical translation from early Hebrew text)
Strong as Death is Love
Embracing the Devine Feminine
Intimacy Ignited
The Book of Romance
Holy Sex: The Way God Intended It
Solomon's Song of Love
Kiss Me Like You Mean It

The above literature references Judaic and Christian books. The same type of literature can be found within pretty much any religion.

So if secular reasoning (logic and professional experts findings) and theistic faith positions can't establish a position that one can accept, then at least realize that your position is based on personal opinion with no factual, historical, or theistic support.

That said, I am done with this Thread!
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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-04-2015, 10:02 PM
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Re: Porn addiction without ED?

^^^^^ Amazing post. Concise and articulate. Well supported (when also including post #16) by numerous references to blog discussions (e.g., Wikipedia) backed by peer-reviewed articles. Well done, MTTO!
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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-06-2015, 02:30 PM
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Re: Porn addiction without ED?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarriedToTheOne View Post
Well, as the great American spokesman said, "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are NOT entitled to your own facts." (Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

And what you have expressed is a personal opinion, which is not backed up by any current psychological research or clinical studies.

The current DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders -- DSM-5 -- used by psychologists, psychiatrists, and therapists for mental health treatment, to include addiction) does NOT include pornography as an addiction diagnosis. The current DSM-5 does have a new section for "Behavioral Addiction", but only includes "Pathological Gambling" in it at this time. Internet Gaming Disorder is being researched for inclusion within the future DSM. Online pornography viewing is mentioned in the DSM-5 (as far as having potential, if abused, to become a "problematic disorder" (NOT addiction) however even then there is no accepted diagnostic criteria for "problematic pornography disorder" (much less "pornography addiction").

The addition of an addition of "Hypersexual Disorder" (not Addiction) to include a sub-section on "Pornography Disorder" was proposed (by a quite small number of researchers) and debated, however the vast majority of researchers and psychiatrists declined its inclusion citing its failure to meet accepted criteria for meeting qualifications for an addiction, disorder, or having an established diagnostic criteria.

Interestingly, one's degree of religious belief has an extremely strong impact on how THEY define pornography. Note that it is not how the experts define it, but how the individual defines it, with many extremely religious people defining viewing pornography ONE TIME as being "Porn addiction"! This study was conducted just this last year by the prestigious Case Western Reserve University.

Pornography obviously has the ability to negatively effect a relationship however that is based on the involved personalities.

Many couples enjoy watching pornography together as a type of sexual foreplay. In many cases the female also watches pornography (or more frequently reads it... steamy, explicit "romance novels" - such as the immensely popular, best-selling "Fifty Shades of Gray" read mainly by women - are very much indeed pornography - it is NOT just imagery! - though a significant portion of women do watch pornography imagery). Even in cases where only one partner or the other watches (or reads) pornography, it often is not something that the other partner feels threatened by. Especially if the activity is not abused by personality traits.

But this is true of ANY behavioral activity.

The husband who is so involved (for example) with fishing and fishing equipment purchases and fishing club meetings and buying and reading every possible fishing magazine and book, to the point of emotionally stepping away from his wife, is in a behavior activity that IS very definitely problematic to the relationship.

The same would be true of the wife who devotes an inordinate amount of HER time to every possible church activity (and even creates other activities, such as a church women's book club, and church women's crochet and knitting club, etcetera, etcetera - and HAS to be involved in everything on ever occasion!).

In both cases, the activities create an unacceptable distance between the partners and the excessively involved individual is using something else to achieve emotional fulfilment that they should be getting from their partner.... It is a form of EMOTIONAL CHEATING - something that IS recognized by all marital professionals. Lay people tend to think of emotional cheating as strictly involves another person, but it can be one's job, one's outside friends / family, one's hobbies, etcetera.

Obviously if the other partner participates in that activity also to a STRONG degree, then while it may still be a personality dysfunction, at least it is not relationship threatening.

This is NOT a personal opinion, but a well-recognized fact. Someone who looks at abused pornography viewing as such a personality dysfunction is hypocritical if they do not recognize that ANY type of excessive / abused personal behavior is also a personality dysfunction and readily capable of negatively impacting the relationship.

Then there are the REAL (professionally recognized) ADDICTIONS.

Drug Addiction. Alcoholism. Pathological Gambling. Etcetera.

Relationships where one of the partners has such a TRUE addiction are (as any professional expert will attest) are truly "living hell". The various personality trait dysfunctions (though potentially problematic for some relationships) pale in comparison.

In discussions with several psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, and counselors, they not only talk about the extreme difficulties in treating marital problems that involve real addictions as compared to personality trait dysfunctions, but bristle at the thought of any type of comparison between the two... In fact, it was one of those who gave me the illustrations of fishing and church involvement - when carried to extremes and / or abused - as being no different than that of viewing pornography that is also excessive or abused.

Few reported instances of marital counseling therapy that dealt with that had problems due to pornography viewing - however one who did have such a case also alerted me to the Case Western Reserve study and felt that a current case that she had wasn't due to a situation of that type. Again, ALL were emphatic that recognized REAL addictions were vastly more serious scenarios for successful treatment.

As far as "health", I am not sure what your quote meant by that. If referring to mental health, that has been addressed by the above. Viewing pornography is neither an addiction nor a mental disorder (though it can be a personality trait dysfunction in SOME cases). As far as medical health, I have talked now to several medical doctors and have yet to find one who said that viewing pornography (unless carried to an extreme degree due to being a personality trait dysfunction to the point where, for example, one's sleep suffered for a long time period) created medical health problems. None had ever treated a case where there had been such a degree of excessive behavior of viewing pornography or heard of another doctor who had done so (though one had an insomnia patient from excessive online video gaming and another had an insomnia case from a woman who was involved with excessive online gambling - which the DSM-5 does recognize as an addiction... both cases had the doctors working WITH therapists in treating the underlying cause).

So, aside from your PERSONAL opinion, all / any pornography is NOT an addiction or a problem. It is NOT consuming in every case. It is NOT a problem for every relationship. And it does NOT have to stop to "reinstitute" health (what does that even mean???).

And as a counterpoint, the following ARE recognized Mental Health Disorders (that one sees extremely LITTLE discussion about - which leads me to believe that many people are actually ANTI SEX and not truly concerned with the full range of things that negatively impact on marriages / relationships):

1. Female Sexual Arousal Disorder: This mental health condition is not only recognized by the professional manual DSM-5, but also in prior issues of the DSM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female...ousal_disorder

2. Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder: Also listed in the DSM. Prior to DSM-5, it was so my listed as HSDD, but as of DSM-5 it is now listed separately as Male HSDD and Female HSDD (readily the more prevalent of the two).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoac...esire_disorder

Note that these ARE recognized Mental Health Disorders - and that (again) the DSM does not (and has not) recognize(d) pornography (whether audio, imagery, or reading - let's not forget the steamy, explicit romance novels loved by so many women) as an addiction or mental health disorder.

So, if you have a personal problem with an individual with a personality dysfunction trait or are personally against pornography of ANY form or are anti sex or fit into the classification of people (*) identified in the Case Western University study, then so be it. That is a problem, but is an individual problem, an anecdotal report, and not evidence of a full spectrum situation where "one size fits all".

So rather than making such emphatic STATEMENTS as implying fact, I would suggest that such comments be prefaced with "Strictly in my opinion... ".

As Mr. Moynihan said:

"You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."

(BTW, nothing that I have written or quoted is MY opinion. My opinion is my own. I have simply stated facts as reported and recognized by others, by professional experts)

(*) I personally do find it strange that religious people have such a puritanical belief (no pun intended) concerning sex. The Bible is a very sexually themed book (1) and the Song of Songs or Song of Solomon (when read in its original translations before the puritanical re-wording by the Medieval works up to and including the King James Version) is very clearly a story of sexual love between two (apparently pre-marital) lovers. A number of attempts have been made to make it a symbolic story (why so steamy in that case, why not more emotionally romantic rather than sexually romantic?). And of course, all the puritanical re-wording done during the Medieval times (KJV)... I mean, changing the wording of breasts by cling them "fawns" and "does". (2)

(1) Books

The Genesis of Sex
Sex in the Texts
The Earthy Nature of the Bible
God and Sex (Coogan)
The Erotic Word
Sex and the Bible (Ellens)
The Spirituality of Sex
Divine Sex (Thelos)
Sex and God (Ray)
The X-Rated Bible
The Uncensored Bible
Sex Texts from the Bible
Flame of Yahweh
Pregnant Passion
Taboo or Not Taboo
God, Sex, and Women of the Bible
Carnal Israel
Does God Belong in the Bedroom
Sacred Secrets
Yahweh's Wife


Note:
- Kosher Sex
- Kosher Adultery
- Kosher Lust
- Sheets Music (Leman)
- Under the Sheets (Leman)
- Turn Up the Heat (Leman)


(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs

Books:

The Song of Songs (Bloch) (Lyrical translation from early Hebrew text)
Strong as Death is Love
Embracing the Devine Feminine
Intimacy Ignited
The Book of Romance
Holy Sex: The Way God Intended It
Solomon's Song of Love
Kiss Me Like You Mean It

The above literature references Judaic and Christian books. The same type of literature can be found within pretty much any religion.

So if secular reasoning (logic and professional experts findings) and theistic faith positions can't establish a position that one can accept, then at least realize that your position is based on personal opinion with no factual, historical, or theistic support.

That said, I am done with this Thread!

This is an old thread and while that post is a great read, it is "strictly my opinion" that only someone struggling to justify that their porn habits are not harmful would go through this much research to convince themselves and others that behaviors like watching porn are no more a problematic behavior than being overactive in church functions.

Wow, just wow!

Please add to your research if you would, how the impact of working in porn effects the actor/performers in the videos ability to have a healthy family versus the impact of being overactive in the church effects the respective members of the congregation to have a healthy family.

Simple, one person's problematic behavior is likely harmful to others, while the other contributes in a positive way to the community. I would go so far to say that is a fact and not just my opinion.

Now I am not one of those people that feels porn is a horrible thing, but I do try to be mindful and stick to written literature as it is much less likely that someone was emotionally harmed in the creation of that type of content. Perhaps some workers in the adult film industry like what they do and advocate for newfound sexual freedom and education, which I imagine might help some folks understand themselves better, but if that were the case, this would be a thread about helping someone advocate to not be ashamed of learning to just be themselves around other people and not just watching porn alone in the bathroom (fact the OP did say her husband watched porn alone in the bathroom).

Cheers,
Badsanta
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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-14-2016, 03:37 AM
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Re: Porn addiction without ED?

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Originally Posted by dragonfli View Post
I think my husband may have a porn addiction. We have been together 12 yrs and he has always looked at porn and masturbated to it. I didn't ever have an issue as I thought it was pretty normal for guys to do. I would even watch it with him occasionally. I didn't think that (up until a year ago) that it might be a problem. I just couldn't imagine doing that as it is obviously cheating and an offense to my wife's pride and dignity. I have masturbated at certain times but never to avoid or neglect my very HOT wife!
I told him about a year ago that I thought he might have a problem as he started to spend ALOT of time in the bathroom and he stopped initiating sex, but he has never had an issues with ED. IMO, this is not about sex. It's about some hidden, repressed NEED inside of him that is only satisfied by the IMPERSONALNESS of porn.

Because I raised the issue, he has over the last year quit looking at it a couple of times, even for as long as 2 months, but he always starts looking again. If this is connected to hidden, neurotic needs, he will not be able to stay away from it UNTIL he faces and resolves those hidden, emotional disturbances.

I think he looks at it every day now again and I am anxious that it will take over and destroy our marriage. Either by him looking at too much or me making a big deal about what may not even be a real problem.Yes, it certainly can! I am not even really sure what my biggest issue is with the porn. It makes it very difficult to try to talk to him and tell him that it bothers me when I don't even know what it is that BOTHERS me about it. This is where therapy and counseling helps folks to examine and put into words what they FEEL about things. You may be insecure and jealous or just offended that he is finding pleasure away from you - which is Cheating, IMO.

He does look at VERY hardcore porn, I don't know if the type of porn matters.
He says he only masturbates about 50% of the time and I believe him because he is spending the most time looking while on work coffee breaks and while at home when I am here. He doesn't have really any alone time, except driving to and from work. The bottom line is WHY does he do it? Is this a neurotic activity that is driven by damaged emotions?

Every time(since bringing up my issues) I find out that he is looking again and I try to talk to him about it he is embarrassed. He tells me that it MIGHT have been a problem befor (looking too much, looking at it to avoid dealing with problems, Well that's about as clear as it can be! It's an emotionally driven NEED! and just being bored and killing time)... but its different now and he says if its becoming too frequent or he can't go a couple of days without looking, that he will scale back. If this habit is about inner stress and damaged emotions, just scaling back won't work for very long!

We have a pretty good sex life, we are both fairly high drive but when he is tired from work (some days he works 12-16 hour shifts) he says he too tired to have sex so he either just goes into the bathroom to look at porn or masturbates. This really bothers me, not so much the masturbating part...I don't even know, I just feel left out! ... And feeling left out - because you are - is both humiliating and PAINFUL for a spouse who is supposed to be about the most important part of the others life! Of course it "bothers" you - that would BOTHER most spouses, IMO.

What is a normal amount of porn for a guy to look at and how does one know if its becoming a problem? It's becoming a problem whenever it does NOT FEEL RIGHT to the other partner! And how do I figure out why the porn makes me so anxious? The number 1 way is to be totally HONEST with your self about what you feel and why you feel it! Maybe "I" am the one with the porn problem. IMO, you are the VICTIM of a "porn problem" that now exists in your mate. I'd go see a counselor ASAP!

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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-14-2016, 05:37 AM
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Re: Porn addiction without ED?

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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-14-2016, 06:49 AM
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Re: Porn addiction without ED?

I completely know how you feel as porn destroyed my relationship. It has changed how I see my husband and how I think about the kind of man and father he is. I am terrified my girls will find out and lose respect for their father, cause frankly I have lost respect for my husband. He is not the man I thought he was and even though he was completely remorseful and ashamed of what he did and he changed his life to stop looking at porn and has given me all access over his internet use, I still don't know if I want to stay with him. The damage his porn use has done is so great that I'm unsure I want to go one in this marriage. I stay now cause I'm afraid to upset my children's life and I do still love him very much and he has changed and part of me is hoping that the changes will stick and that as time go by I will begin to respect him again.

If this is a problem for you in your marriage, your husband need to make an effort to change, but even if it does don't be surprised if it doesn't fix anything. Some wounds can't be healed. I'm sorry you are here, it's the worse feeling in the world to have your husband do this to you. Please know this is not your fault or your problem and as other people have suggested seeing a counsellor would help.

All the best.
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