When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
Hi all,
I've been married 3 1/2 years, started dating 5 years ago.
I'm a committed Christian, and so is my wife. Despite sharing the same basic beliefs about who God is, his love for us and his redemptive plan through Christ, we do live out our faith in very different ways.
She has the classic charismatic approach to faith, i.e. name it and claim it, prosperity gospel, tithing, shout it out, etc. This was the culture I was brought up in, but as I came into adulthood I came to see that while all these things were good, it's the heart of God behind them that is the real point of them. I developed a much more comtemplative and personal revelation of faith - i.e. when God asks me to trust him, he implicitly knows that as I take that step there will be issues and areas in my life that are highlighted as being not yet yeilded to him. Because I am already forgiven, I do not need to fear facing up to these because they no longer define me, but are defined by my need of him.
Okay, so back on track to the main issue. My wife, despite being loving and kind, has a stubborn and absolute invulnerability that gives rise to an insatiable need to be in control. This has meant that where there's even a possibility to use what I say and do against me, she will.
I significant part of faith to me is the expression of the life that Christ gives. This includes verbally as well as by actions. The trouble is, for someone who's always looking for a chance to take control, words provide the perfect opportunity to do so. I'll give you an example of an early conversation between my (then girlfriend, now wife: GF-NW) and I to help you understand:
Me: I often like to focus on the thought that Christ came primarily to give us life, rather than to die for our sins - but it speaks so much of the level of God's love for us, that dying for our sins was the way that he carried out that plan. GF-NW: Well I believe that Jesus did come to die for our sins. Me: Yes of course, but my point is that it was to give us life. GF-NW: Well, I believe he came to die for me.
I so wanted to go on and explore what life in Christ actually meant to each of us, but instead there I was, thrust back into place with her convinced in herself that I didn't really believe that Jesus died for my sins, but rather some wiffly-woffly notion of 'life' that I defined my own way and then tacked Jesus onto to make sound good. If you notice, however, she made no direct accusations against me, rather everything is by counter-attack phrased in defensive terms. My life with her is characterised by innumerable episodes where I stick my neck out by attempting to express my point of view, and having it hacked and mutilated on some side issue which has nothing to do with what I'm trying to express.
Here's another particulary telling example from when we'd been married a couple of years. I was feeling really low one evening, with lots of stuff going on. We were about to pray together. Attempting to make sure that I/we stayed positive about things, I made a simple statement: Me: I really don't want to pray a 'woe-is-me' type prayer Wife: Well I believe in praying whether I feel good or bad. Me: Speechless. Dumbstruck. Astounded.
I sat there for a couple of minutes trying to fathom how she could be so arrogant, and how much of my reaction was dictated to by my current low emotional state. When we eventually started to talk about what I was offended about, it wasn't about the fact that she'd just woefully misunderstood me and then jumped on the opportunity to say how much better she was than me. Instead, she started chastising me about being offended, and aggressively defending her stance of praying in the good and the bad - as if that wasn't also my stance.
That's how the control takes place. I'm superfluous. However, I supposed to be the spiritual leader. Too bad that the only type of leading she would ever accept would be to do things exactly her way. Because if it's not exactly her way it must be evil, and she will bend and twist and misconstrue everything until she makes it that way.
Sorry people, I'm ranting. I'm so frustrated. I have never pretended I'm perfect. My weaknesses have been used against me and my strengths have been thrown back in my face as arrogance and 'intellectualism'. I'm an empty shell and my faith is suffering because faith has only ever meant power-conflict since my wife has entered my world. Any words of advice, chastisement, or encouragement?
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capital P
we do live out our faith in very different ways.nothing wrong w/ that!
Okay, so back on track to the main issue. My wife, despite being loving and kind, has a stubborn and absolute invulnerability that gives rise to an insatiable need to be in control. This has meant that where there's even a possibility to use what I say and do against me, she will.my 1st take was "get used to it
CP, this is how most women are" but as i read further along
such is not the case, at least not what u gave us here to
read concerning yer W. and so.......we move on.
I significant part of faith to me is the expression of the life that Christ gives. This includes verbally as well as by actions. The trouble is, for someone who's always looking for a chance to take control, words provide the perfect opportunity to do so. I'll give you an example:
Me: I often like to focus on the thought that Christ came primarily to give us life, rather than to die for our sins - but it speaks so much of the level of God's love for us, that dying for our sins was the way that he carried out that plan. GF-NW: Well I believe that Jesus did come to die for our sins. Me: Yes of course, but my point is that it was to give us life. GF-NW: Well, I believe he came to die for me. as this reads shes not
disagreeing w/ u, nor controlling necessarily the conversation.
we're not there to hear her nor to read her body language which
are of primary importance in most exchanges of all people when
quotes are used especially. its almost as if she doesnt want
u to forget Jesus' dying for us part of Gods plan. yes she may
be simple minded on this n other pts, but cut her some slack,
shes a charismatic. They have their strgths/wknesses like
all of us.
I so wanted to go on and explore what life in Christ actually meant to each of us, but instead there I was, thrust back into place with her convinced in herself that I didn't really believe that Jesus died for my sins, but rather some wiffly-woffly notion of 'life' that I defined my own way and then tacked Jesus onto to make sound good. If you notice, however, she made no direct accusations against me,to her credit. so then........ rather everything is by counter-attack phrased in defensive terms. My life with her is characterised by innumerable episodes where I stick my neck out by attempting to express my point of view, and having it hacked and mutilated on some side issue which has nothing to do with what I'm trying to express.<----why all this?
Here's another particulary telling example from when we'd been married a couple of years. I was feeling really low one evening, with lots of stuff going on. We were about to pray together. Attempting to make sure that I/we stayed positive about things, I made a simple statement: Me: I really don't want to pray a 'woe-is-me' type prayer Wife: Well I believe in praying whether I feel good or bad. Me: Speechless. Dumbstruck. Astounded. uh...no. instead u ask
like any normal person "what do u mean by that?"
I sat there for a couple of minutes trying to fathom how she could be so arrogant,nope. insensitive maybe but u didnt ask so u dont know. and how much of my reaction was dictated to by my current low emotional state. When we eventually started to talk about what I was offended about, it wasn't about the fact that she'd just woefully misunderstood me and then jumped on the opportunity to say how much better she was than me. u r the one whos defensive here, u maybe right, but it reads here as u r wrong
perhaps. Instead, she started chastising me about being offended, and aggressively defending her stance of praying in the good and the bad - as if that wasn't also my stance.no again. u were totally unclear what u meant when u said yer no-woe bit.
i too might reply as she did. hopefully i'd ask u alot of Q's 1st.
That's how the control takes place. I'm superfluous. However, I supposed to be the spiritual leader. Too bad that the only type of leading she would ever accept would be to do things exactly her way. Because if it's not exactly her way it must be evil, and she will bend and twist and misconstrue everything until she makes it that way.sorry, u didnt prove any of this by what u wrote. evil? comeon CP, lighten up.
Sorry people, I'm ranting. I'm so frustrated. I have never pretended I'm perfect. My weaknesses have been used against me and my strengths have been thrown back in my face as arrogance and 'intellectualism'. I'm an empty shell and my faith is suffering because faith has only ever meant power-conflict since my wife has entered my world. Any words of advice, chastisement, or encouragement?
theres prob alot u left out
that maybe would support yer position on yer W not being
supportive of u. if so, join the crowd here. my main concern
and should be both of yours is being good/great witnessess
for Christ, in all ways. i assume u knew about some of yer
diffs b4 u got marr'd right? so? yet did it ever occur to u
that she may be trying to keep u balanced in yer view or
presentation when u witness? or that shes trying to help,
as in not let u forget the simple things of the gospel?
u do know the proverb re: "sharping of swords?"
if u two r in any way too busy hissing at each other, then
who do u both think u r representing at that moment?
hint: its not Jesus. another clue: "hissing."
i gather much from what little u wrote(specifically)about
what H/W said, but will wait to see how u respond to my
post b4 i reply any further on this, as u may not return here
ever again. if u do, pls give as much specifics in order to
prove yer pt. i'm sure u'll be honest w/ yer quotes.
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
nothing wrong w/ that!
Exactly - my whole approach in our relationship has, from the very start, been to understand each other's approach and find a way to work our differing viewpoints and strengths and weaknesses together for God's glory. It's one of the core principles of my life that each one of us has a differing viewpoint that, while not being necessarily correct, is nonetheless valid and valuable. Unfortunately, my experience is that my wife has turned this against me as being liberal-minded and not believing in truth.
my 1st take was "get used to it
CP, this is how most women are" but as i read further along
such is not the case, at least not what u gave us here to
read concerning yer W. and so.......we move on.
One of the most significant causes of internal conflict within me is trying to reconcile her behaviour with being either that of generic 'woman' or that which arises from her own individual approach to life. If I can find a way to understand that it's a 'womanly' trait, this can be a great source of preace to me.
as this reads shes not
disagreeing w/ u, nor controlling necessarily the conversation.
we're not there to hear her nor to read her body language which
are of primary importance in most exchanges of all people when
quotes are used especially. its almost as if she doesnt want
u to forget Jesus' dying for us part of Gods plan. yes she may
be simple minded on this n other pts, but cut her some slack,
shes a charismatic. They have their strgths/wknesses like
all of us.
The control is not immediately obvious in typed words, however the tone in her voice, and the way she repeats her 'bottom line' (i.e. Jesus died) after I try to explain myself. I do want to make it clear that this is not a matter of there being one or two conversations that I look back on and feel bitter about. These quick conversation snippets are rather simply examples to try to illustrate my point, or to express my perspective. The thing is that I did actually say that Jesus died for our sins - however the main point I was trying to express was my own understanding of the awesomeness of God's plan for us. If she misunderstood me, she could have asked me to clarify, but instead she just stomped her figurative foot down to 'stand her ground against me'. I gave her the benefit of the doubt by clarifying that of course Jesus did die for our sins, as part of God's plan to give us life. In reply, she simply repeated her 'stance'. The conversation had to end there - I'd like to know how I could have continued it in a way that meant I could be understood.
............to her credit. so then
I gave her this credit for so long too. When the above conversation happened, I didn't really think about it too much at the time because of this. In the context of time, however, I've come to see that when my wife replies to a statement of mine with "well I believe....." (notice the emphasis on the I)she is actually making an accusation against me, but just not in direct words, therefore meaning that she remains invulnerable. If I dare even imply that she might not understand what I meant, she can (and does) simply say that she didn't say anything against me. And of course simply trying to continue to explain myself without getting distracted by the inherent competitiveness in her reply gets me noooowhere.
<----why all this?
Simply a bit of over-exuberatnt ranting really. What I meant is that my wife won't express her beliefs pro-actively, because that would leave her vulnerable. She wants me to express mine first, which I am happy to do because there are many things I am very passionate about and would like her to hear my perspective. However, she then waits until I say something she disagrees with (or more often something that she misconstrues) and then sets herself in opposition to it, mercilessly crushing it and me until not only is my expression of belief nullified, but I am made to be the bad person. Hence 'sticking my neck out to have it chopped'.
uh...no. instead u ask
like any normal person "what do u mean by that?"
By the time this conversation happened, I had asked that question countless times. The trouble is, my wife interprets any question as a challenge, and will launch into a counter-attack, saying stuff like "well I don't question, I just believe". After asking a question 999 times and getting the same result, I think you can understand that on the 1000th time most 'normal' people would start to expect what the result will be if the same question is asked again.
nope. insensitive maybe but u didnt ask so u dont know.
Okay, so I overstated the point a little. You're right, she was just being insensitive. And in subsequent conversations, when I was feeling better obviously, I did ask, and also explained that I wasn't trying to say that we shouldn't pray but that we should pray positively - but my low emotional state at the time inhibited an accurate expression of this. She simply kept stating that she believes in praying all the time - she wouldn't let go. No acknowledgment that she might have misunderstood me.
u r the one whos defensive here, u maybe right, but it reads here as u r wrong perhaps.
I'd be very happy if I was wrong here - I want to be wrong, that's kind of the point.
sorry, u didnt prove any of this by what u wrote. evil? comeon CP, lighten up
I clicked into emotional expression mode. I couldn't hope to ever 'prove' my perspective to anyone. All I can say is that over a 5 year relationship, through various defensive-relational techniques on her part, that's the only option I'm left with. As far as 'lightening up' goes - that was me for the first year of our relationship, until all her control techniques started becoming clear to me. My default life position is to take things responsibly but lightly - however when this is turned against me as being a frivolous "she'll-be-right" and "no worries" approach to life, I've really got no other option.
if u two r in any way too busy hissing at each other, then
who do u both think u r representing at that moment?
hint: its not Jesus. another clue: "hissing."
Trouble is, I'm not the quarrelling type. I'll always try to keep to the issues in an argument (i.e. not a quarrel). As I said before, the pattern in our relationship is for me to put myself forward and for her to cut me down.
i gather much from what little u wrote(specifically)about
what H/W said, but will wait to see how u respond to my
post b4 i reply any further on this, as u may not return here
ever again. if u do, pls give as much specifics in order to
prove yer pt. i'm sure u'll be honest w/ yer quotes.
I hope I've clarified things well in the time I've got available. I really do need to go now. Thanks so much for the reply cb, I really do appreciate it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb45
theres prob alot u left out
that maybe would support yer position on yer W not being
supportive of u. if so, join the crowd here. my main concern
and should be both of yours is being good/great witnessess
for Christ, in all ways. i assume u knew about some of yer
diffs b4 u got marr'd right? so? yet did it ever occur to u
that she may be trying to keep u balanced in yer view or
presentation when u witness? or that shes trying to help,
as in not let u forget the simple things of the gospel?
u do know the proverb re: "sharping of swords?"
if u two r in any way too busy hissing at each other, then
who do u both think u r representing at that moment?
hint: its not Jesus. another clue: "hissing."
i gather much from what little u wrote(specifically)about
what H/W said, but will wait to see how u respond to my
post b4 i reply any further on this, as u may not return here
ever again. if u do, pls give as much specifics in order to
prove yer pt. i'm sure u'll be honest w/ yer quotes.
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
wow. where to begin. for the sake of brevity, i'll try to be concise w/ my post/ideas but may have to continue it/them later in response to yer replies.
1st off as a man, i hear what u r saying about the generalized
negative aspects of wives in how they can undermine the
marriage rel'shp. i understand some of yer frustrations.
W's can often disagree, seemingly for the sake of disagreement.
W's usually want to have the last word in arguments, even
when they r clearly wrong.
W's dont let male logic get in the way of them proving themselves right just by "exhausting" an argument session.
W's think they r helping u by showing u where u come up
short in yer analysis of anything. sometimes they're right,
sometimes wrong.
W''s of the western world r much more assertive,
insensitive, opinionated, spoiled, brash, manipulative, etc than
any of their eastern or historical counterparts ever were.
U.S. women often have these "attributes"(in their mind)in "spades."
H's feel put off by these adversarial encounters, not long
after the honeymoon effect is done. i think i feel u r in this
domain presently. sometimes these feelings r valid, other
times u r too defensive as u keep following the same pattern
over n over again.
which leads me to this CP. u've said it yerself, u always
initiate things off w/ yer W by saying something 1st, then
she usually retorts as if on cue. then u feel hurt to some
degree as shes done it again for the umpteenth time.
(u know whats coming right?)Why dont U just switch things
around on yer wife? keep yer mouth shut more often n let
her initiate stimulating conversation in which u can retort
and/or play the adversary(repeatedly)!
in essence give her a proverbial taste of her own medicine,
not to be spiteful mind u, but to set up yer heart to heart
talks w/ her later on down the line when she'll be more
receptive to how u felt when she was doing it to u.
u digg what i'm sayin mon?
also dont take this wrong but maybe ur W cant grasp
the concepts u r trying to share w/ her? maybe she feels
intimidated biblically by u and she (over)compensates this
by playing adversarial w/ u all too often.
maybe she thinks u too intellectual and a softy pushover
type of guy. i dunno, but her tone is troublesome no matter
what the root of its cause, and should concern u greatly, as it
does me w/ my W from time-time(body language too!).
which is another matter to cover in those heart to heart
talks she'll hopefully be more receptive/cooperative to in
the future.
i think the more u look outside of the two of u, like a third
party watching how u both interact concerning religion n
other things, the more wise/balanced yer approach in how
to proceed, which includes sometimes just chuckling at her
and leaving well enough alone.
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
1st off as a man, i hear what u r saying about the generalized
negative aspects of wives in how they can undermine the
marriage rel'shp. i understand some of yer frustrations.
Thanks cb, it's good to be reassured that I'm not necessarily an arrogant psycho for being troubled in this way.
W's can often disagree, seemingly for the sake of disagreement.
W's usually want to have the last word in arguments, even
when they r clearly wrong.
W's dont let male logic get in the way of them proving themselves right just by "exhausting" an argument session.
W's think they r helping u by showing u where u come up
short in yer analysis of anything. sometimes they're right,
sometimes wrong.
Mmm, however it's funny how as a man in the church you grow up with an idea that women are the standard by which morality is set (caring, nurturing, relational, etc) and that men are the ones who struggle with pride and lust ill-treatment of their partner and non-commitment and insensitivity and emotional coldness. So a man tries to work on these traits by laying them before God, and feels like he's making some progress - that he's developed some character and relationship with God that may allow him to make a positive contribution to a woman's life by committing to her. Then when he gets married he finds out all the things that you've just mentioned. All the 'character'? "Arrogance!"
All the 'sensitivity'? "Sappiness/Intensity!"
All the honest expression of feelings? Threat! - "that's my domain!" "If you're frustrated, that must mean it's my fault!"
All the positive treatment you give her? Deception! "Sooner or later you'll hurt me!" (which of course is bound to be proved right as we walk through life as imperfect people).
As a man, you are pre-defined in the eyes of women as all those negative men traits stated above, and nothing will ever change this.
Woah. Sorry, I got ranting again. Shshshshshshsh. Just letting of some steam. Okay, now I've taken a few breaths. Ahhhh.
W''s of the western world r much more assertive,
insensitive, opinionated, spoiled, brash, manipulative, etc than
any of their eastern or historical counterparts ever were.
U.S. women often have these "attributes"(in their mind)in "spades."
And it's all defensiveness, of course.
H's feel put off by these adversarial encounters, not long
after the honeymoon effect is done. i think i feel u r in this
domain presently. sometimes these feelings r valid, other
times u r too defensive as u keep following the same pattern
over n over again.
It sounds weird to say it (and I can already hear the "well you went ahead and married her"), but the honeymoon effect was over long before the wedding day. I have a rock-solid conviction that life happens one moment at a time, but every one of those moments is eternal. I stuck with her because I saw the innate defensiveness in all of her frustrating behaviour - she feared me rejecting her and did everything to stay in control so that 'when' I 'inevitably' rejected her she wouldn't be the one to 'blame'. The promise that keeps me going is that one day, she will realise she doesn't have to fight me anymore because I'm not going anywhere. The only thing that can prove that to her is time. I see how wonderful she is under the defensive armour, I just didn't fully realise how continually impervious that armour would stay, and how she would reinforce that armour by using things against me that had nothing to do with reality.
I despise the "well you were the one that married me/her" line. Not only does it completely miss the point (as if I willingly and joyfully committed to having my soul continually crushed for years on end), but it also totally dismisses the courage it took to actually commit under those circumstances, along with the principle of eternal life that underpins that courage.
which leads me to this CP. u've said it yerself, u always
initiate things off w/ yer W by saying something 1st, then
she usually retorts as if on cue. then u feel hurt to some
degree as shes done it again for the umpteenth time.
(u know whats coming right?)Why dont U just switch things
around on yer wife? keep yer mouth shut more often n let
her initiate stimulating conversation in which u can retort
and/or play the adversary(repeatedly)!
in essence give her a proverbial taste of her own medicine,
not to be spiteful mind u, but to set up yer heart to heart
talks w/ her later on down the line when she'll be more
receptive to how u felt when she was doing it to u.
u digg what i'm sayin mon?
Yep, tried this countless times. Two main problems. Firstly, she simply will not make herself vulnerable - something which is essential if you're going to stick you neck out. Secondly, dispite swearing 'till she's blue in the face that she doesn't take a competitive approach to issue, she can oddly enough recognise quick-as-a-flash if I use the same techniques as she does, and then it's all over baby. Another issue is that that I'm simply not that good at giving people a taste of their own medicine - anyone can see through me in a heartbeat.
also dont take this wrong but maybe ur W cant grasp
the concepts u r trying to share w/ her? maybe she feels
intimidated biblically by u and she (over)compensates this
by playing adversarial w/ u all too often.
Mmm, but of course I'd be an arrogant scum-of-the-Earth to ever believe that wouldn't I But seriously, I do sometimes wonder if this is the case, which is strange because she's a very intellegent person. Of course, that may not be how she defines herself though.
maybe she thinks u too intellectual and a softy pushover
type of guy. i dunno, but her tone is troublesome no matter
what the root of its cause, and should concern u greatly, as it
does me w/ my W from time-time(body language too!).
I will always try to insist on clear communication between us, which has sometimes meant that I've been quite assertive with her. Unfortunately, this just shuts her down further. If I'm expressing something logically, she doesn't hear what I'm saying but rather dismisses it as 'being logical' and that I'm just trying to prove how logical I can be. So I let her rant, which of course puts me in the position of being a softy. The thing is, I'm for the most part secure in my identity - whether she labels me a controlling man or a weak softy, I know who I am - I'm neither and I'm both. I'm an imperfect human saved by Christ's grace.
which is another matter to cover in those heart to heart
talks she'll hopefully be more receptive/cooperative to in
the future.
i think the more u look outside of the two of u, like a third
party watching how u both interact concerning religion n
other things, the more wise/balanced yer approach in how
to proceed, which includes sometimes just chuckling at her
and leaving well enough alone.
Chuckle, chuckle. Thanks again so much for taking the time to write cb - I had a greater restfulness in myself yesterday than I have had for a long time.
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
Do you argue like this about day to day stuff as well or just theology?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capital P
Hi all,
I've been married 3 1/2 years, started dating 5 years ago.
I'm a committed Christian, and so is my wife. Despite sharing the same basic beliefs about who God is, his love for us and his redemptive plan through Christ, we do live out our faith in very different ways.
She has the classic charismatic approach to faith, i.e. name it and claim it, prosperity gospel, tithing, shout it out, etc. This was the culture I was brought up in, but as I came into adulthood I came to see that while all these things were good, it's the heart of God behind them that is the real point of them. I developed a much more comtemplative and personal revelation of faith - i.e. when God asks me to trust him, he implicitly knows that as I take that step there will be issues and areas in my life that are highlighted as being not yet yeilded to him. Because I am already forgiven, I do not need to fear facing up to these because they no longer define me, but are defined by my need of him.
Okay, so back on track to the main issue. My wife, despite being loving and kind, has a stubborn and absolute invulnerability that gives rise to an insatiable need to be in control. This has meant that where there's even a possibility to use what I say and do against me, she will.
I significant part of faith to me is the expression of the life that Christ gives. This includes verbally as well as by actions. The trouble is, for someone who's always looking for a chance to take control, words provide the perfect opportunity to do so. I'll give you an example of an early conversation between my (then girlfriend, now wife: GF-NW) and I to help you understand:
Me: I often like to focus on the thought that Christ came primarily to give us life, rather than to die for our sins - but it speaks so much of the level of God's love for us, that dying for our sins was the way that he carried out that plan. GF-NW: Well I believe that Jesus did come to die for our sins. Me: Yes of course, but my point is that it was to give us life. GF-NW: Well, I believe he came to die for me.
I so wanted to go on and explore what life in Christ actually meant to each of us, but instead there I was, thrust back into place with her convinced in herself that I didn't really believe that Jesus died for my sins, but rather some wiffly-woffly notion of 'life' that I defined my own way and then tacked Jesus onto to make sound good. If you notice, however, she made no direct accusations against me, rather everything is by counter-attack phrased in defensive terms. My life with her is characterised by innumerable episodes where I stick my neck out by attempting to express my point of view, and having it hacked and mutilated on some side issue which has nothing to do with what I'm trying to express.
Here's another particulary telling example from when we'd been married a couple of years. I was feeling really low one evening, with lots of stuff going on. We were about to pray together. Attempting to make sure that I/we stayed positive about things, I made a simple statement: Me: I really don't want to pray a 'woe-is-me' type prayer Wife: Well I believe in praying whether I feel good or bad. Me: Speechless. Dumbstruck. Astounded.
I sat there for a couple of minutes trying to fathom how she could be so arrogant, and how much of my reaction was dictated to by my current low emotional state. When we eventually started to talk about what I was offended about, it wasn't about the fact that she'd just woefully misunderstood me and then jumped on the opportunity to say how much better she was than me. Instead, she started chastising me about being offended, and aggressively defending her stance of praying in the good and the bad - as if that wasn't also my stance.
That's how the control takes place. I'm superfluous. However, I supposed to be the spiritual leader. Too bad that the only type of leading she would ever accept would be to do things exactly her way. Because if it's not exactly her way it must be evil, and she will bend and twist and misconstrue everything until she makes it that way.
Sorry people, I'm ranting. I'm so frustrated. I have never pretended I'm perfect. My weaknesses have been used against me and my strengths have been thrown back in my face as arrogance and 'intellectualism'. I'm an empty shell and my faith is suffering because faith has only ever meant power-conflict since my wife has entered my world. Any words of advice, chastisement, or encouragement?
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEM11363
Do you argue like this about day to day stuff as well or just theology?
Good question. Day to day our relationship is very good. One amazing thing about her that I really appreciate is that she doesn't nag me about stuff. However, in saying that she has quiet a passive-aggressive relational style, whereby she will keep things to herself to avoid conflict (even when they are perfectly legitimate thoughts that I actively want to hear) until she reaches the point where she breaks, and then it's aaaalll ooooveeeer. When this happens, I'm pretty stuck because I realise that I've been causing her stress all that time because I thought we were moving forward together, but in actual fact she was dragging her heels internally while doing everything on the outside to portray otherwise.
Our approaches to conflict are very different. It might simply be a man-woman thing, but where she will avoid any conflict at all costs, I relish conflict if it is approached in the right way. It is inevitable that two different people will see the world through two different viewpoints, and when you're walking through life together, you have to find a way to reconcile these viewpoints. Conflict, to me, is simply the process involved in this reconciliation. There are approaches we can take that facilitate the reconciliation of viewpoints without resorting to the imposition of one viewpoint over the other.
For my wife on the other hand, conflict can only mean the imposition of not just one viewpoint over the other, but one person over the other. So many times the approach she portrays is that there's no other option but either doing things my way or her way. And if it's my way - then WATCH OUT, because we're going to go through a storm until I give up in exasperation, wondering what on Earth I've done to be such an evil person. For a long time I thought that when she did agree to go 'my way', she genuinely meant it - I gave her the benefit of the doubt because she gave me nothing else to go on (bearing in mind she would refuse to actively communicate 'her way' because that would leave her vulnerable - far less risky to make sure it's me putting myself out there). So now, all I know is that in each and every situation, she's got a way forward and she will not accept any other way but that exact way, however I never have the foggiest idea what that way is until I step forward and get cut down, then step forward again to get cut down again, etc. Eventually, when there's nothing of me left, she'll enforce her way, along with a whole diatribe about how I wouldn't listen to her and just did my own thing.
She often also makes comments about weak men who don't stand up to their woman (which I often assume is a veiled communication to me, whether it is or not is another story.) I certainly feel hen-pecked - I guess I just always believed that men who were hen-pecked by their wives were kind of weak-willed. Serves me right for my judgmental call aye? I am certainly not weak-willed. I just don't do the domination-suppression game - it's pointless
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
Quote:
Sorry people, I'm ranting. I'm so frustrated. I have never pretended I'm perfect. My weaknesses have been used against me and my strengths have been thrown back in my face as arrogance and 'intellectualism'. I'm an empty shell and my faith is suffering because faith has only ever meant power-conflict since my wife has entered my world. Any words of advice, chastisement, or encouragement?
First, don't be thrown by the 'intellectualism' argument: God REQUIRES us to think ('Come - let us reason together') - and one of the most important passages in Scripture (nearly always underrated: Romans 12:2): "..Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will...."
In general the revolt against intellectual and rational thought within Christianity was introduced when Christians world-wide decided to adopt a very unChristian philosophy as the basis for how we act with the world - Soren Kierkegaard in the 1800s. As always, adapting Christianity to alien philosophies has its detrimental side (apart from the fact that God directly commands us not to do so...)
There are several things to look at here that might help you quite a bit. TO start with, any help you might be for your wife is going to be a direct result of how well you understand your faith and your place in her life. God places ue where He wants us, and His reasons are always perfect, there are no errors, no misjudgments, etc. So the question is, why has he given you this burden and not another. The answer is found in Him, of course, no one here can answer that - and it may not be answered in this life. However, there are some things that you can focus on.
The first is to concentrate on your walk with God. This is accomplished in one way only - through prayerful study of his Word. He works in no other way. (See 2 Timothy 3:16 -17, note the use of the words 'all' scripture and 'every' good work. Not 'some' in either case. SO getting to know the entire Bible is your priority. A great resource is found at For the Love of God - try doing the entire Bible reading each day, Its an amazing thing.
Second, realize that your place in your family is as the spiritual leader. You are the spiritual authority in your family. That does NOT mean you are the boss, or the dominater, but it does mean that you are responsible for your family's spiritual health: God requires that of you as husband. And the best way to lead is by example. You cannot force others to act - but you can influence them to do so.
Third, it seems (from what you write) that your wife is very defensive about her spirituality. Actually, this is quite understandable: given the Charismatic basis for her beliefs, she is bound to be extremely defensive or else feel lost. Charismatic thought is by nature centered in the self - it is entirely dependent upon how you feel about a situation - you transpose your emotional state for the truth, so that when you feel good, you convince yourself that it is God making you feel that way. Charismatic thought is on the lowest realm of the 'spiritual food' category: when Paul scolds the church for wanting to drink milk when they should be eating meat, it was this to which he referred. Basically, it works this way: if something comes up that causes a negative emotion in the Charismatic, it is immediately interpreted (strange that a person centered entirely in emotion should use their mind for anything - but that's the nature of the beast) - as non-Christian, or even Satan at work. The effort is to keep clinging to what 'feels' right as opposed to what may actually be quite correct. It is imperative, from a Charismatic standpoint, that life be subject to emotion - and positive ones indicate God's favor, etc... Without that guideline, a Charismatic is lost - they cannot depend 'merely' on the promises of God (dry, useless words!) - it MUST be interpreted through emotional response.
Hence, if your wife has some doubts as to anything, if your conversation hits upon them, she will be reminded of this doubt and attribute that to evil at work outside of her, trying to undermine her sensations of right and wrong.
In both conversations you brought up, she did not hear a thing you were saying. But I would like to point out that it is entirely possible that she simply does not have the spiritual growth evident enough to understand what you were saying at all. She hears what she is looking for and operates on that level.
There is a solution to that: use the Socratic method of dialog (no, don't introduce alien philosophies!) - ask her questions that lead to her examining what she is saying: for example:
Quote:
GF-NW: Well I believe that Jesus did come to die for our sins.
Me: Yes of course, but my point is that it was to give us life.
GF-NW: Well, I believe he came to die for me.
You: I was thinking along that line, and I was wondering - since Jesus died for us, does that mean it doesn't matter what we do? Doesn't it seem that since he paid for all our sins, that it doesn't matter any more?
Let her believe that she is educating you. Ask questions, don't give answers. She will begin to think her way through things, and start understanding things you've already worked out. Of COURSE Jesus died that we might have eternal life (and have it more abundantly) - in fact, although most people don't think about this, Jesus did more than die for us - he also lived for us. God not only requires a forgiven person - but one who has never sinned (the soul that sins is cursed) - Jesus' death was on our behalf - so was His life. When God looks at us, He sees the fact that our sins have been paid for (Jesus' death) and that we have a perfect life to offer him (Jesus') Jesus was our substitute - in life as well as death - and in returning to life. It's because of EVERYTHING He did that we are saved - not just his death. All that would do is leave us in limbo - forgiven, but without a perfect life to offer/
In essence, I'd advise you to step back out of the fight: it takes two to dance. Expect her to fight; don't give her anything substantial to fight against:
Quote:
Me: I really don't want to pray a 'woe-is-me' type prayer
Wife: Well I believe in praying whether I feel good or bad.
You: Exactly! I was thinking of that passage that says 'give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus....' (1 Thessalonians 5:18)
Can she disagree with that? When you take such a tact, you move things from a 'you vs me' situation to a 'we are in this together' thing.
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
You're on fire today Tanelornpete. Bam! Bam! Bam! went point after point with what I've been afraid admit to thinking for so long. Her whole life seems to be built on putting herself forward to the world as being this super-woman of unshakable faith, but I realised a long time ago that this is a disguise to hide a desparately insecure little girl away inside. This has led to a very polarised view on the world, where everything is either perfect or evil. This means she lives a life of torment trying to be perfect in every way, because admitting that she's not perfect could only mean being that insecure little girl that she so wants to believe she's not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanelornpete
First, don't be thrown by the 'intellectualism' argument: God REQUIRES us to think ('Come - let us reason together') - and one of the most important passages in Scripture (nearly always underrated: Romans 12:2): "..Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will...."
He did create us with a mind, after all, and he created every part of us to relate with and bring glory to him.
In general the revolt against intellectual and rational thought within Christianity was introduced when Christians world-wide decided to adopt a very unChristian philosophy as the basis for how we act with the world - Soren Kierkegaard in the 1800s. As always, adapting Christianity to alien philosophies has its detrimental side (apart from the fact that God directly commands us not to do so...)
There are several things to look at here that might help you quite a bit. TO start with, any help you might be for your wife is going to be a direct result of how well you understand your faith and your place in her life. God places ue where He wants us, and His reasons are always perfect, there are no errors, no misjudgments, etc. So the question is, why has he given you this burden and not another. The answer is found in Him, of course, no one here can answer that - and it may not be answered in this life. However, there are some things that you can focus on.
The first is to concentrate on your walk with God. This is accomplished in one way only - through prayerful study of his Word. He works in no other way. (See 2 Timothy 3:16 -17, note the use of the words 'all' scripture and 'every' good work. Not 'some' in either case. SO getting to know the entire Bible is your priority. A great resource is found at For the Love of God - try doing the entire Bible reading each day, Its an amazing thing.
Thanks for the resource, I'll check it out. This is the touchpoint for me I think. I'm worried myself because the negative state I've been in for the past few years has meant that prayer and bible study have been a real struggle. I don't place them as a top priority at present. This is something that I'm determined to change, because I know that even if my wife may always use my expression of faith against me, our daughter (who is 6 months old) needs me to be in communion with God for her sake.
Second, realize that your place in your family is as the spiritual leader. You are the spiritual authority in your family. That does NOT mean you are the boss, or the dominater, but it does mean that you are responsible for your family's spiritual health: God requires that of you as husband. And the best way to lead is by example. You cannot force others to act - but you can influence them to do so.
Mmmm. This is an extra area of concern for me at present (refer to my last paragraph). Guess I just need to keep sticking my neck out and pray that God's grace goes with me as I do so.
Third, it seems (from what you write) that your wife is very defensive about her spirituality. Actually, this is quite understandable: given the Charismatic basis for her beliefs, she is bound to be extremely defensive or else feel lost. Charismatic thought is by nature centered in the self - it is entirely dependent upon how you feel about a situation - you transpose your emotional state for the truth, so that when you feel good, you convince yourself that it is God making you feel that way. Charismatic thought is on the lowest realm of the 'spiritual food' category: when Paul scolds the church for wanting to drink milk when they should be eating meat, it was this to which he referred. Basically, it works this way: if something comes up that causes a negative emotion in the Charismatic, it is immediately interpreted (strange that a person centered entirely in emotion should use their mind for anything - but that's the nature of the beast) - as non-Christian, or even Satan at work. The effort is to keep clinging to what 'feels' right as opposed to what may actually be quite correct. It is imperative, from a Charismatic standpoint, that life be subject to emotion - and positive ones indicate God's favor, etc... Without that guideline, a Charismatic is lost - they cannot depend 'merely' on the promises of God (dry, useless words!) - it MUST be interpreted through emotional response.
Touche. Touche.
Hence, if your wife has some doubts as to anything, if your conversation hits upon them, she will be reminded of this doubt and attribute that to evil at work outside of her, trying to undermine her sensations of right and wrong.
In both conversations you brought up, she did not hear a thing you were saying. But I would like to point out that it is entirely possible that she simply does not have the spiritual growth evident enough to understand what you were saying at all. She hears what she is looking for and operates on that level.
Bam! "She hears what she is looking for". If I hadn't seen this written down first I would have sworn that I wrote it myself. So many expressions of what God means to me have been met at the end with a statement by her that shows nothing but that she heard one of her 'key words' in amongst my speel and decided that that was enough to turn it against me. But she's so adamant that she's the one with all the faith and therefore she needs to take control (which is the central idea to this whole thread).
There is a solution to that: use the Socratic method of dialog (no, don't introduce alien philosophies!) - ask her questions that lead to her examining what she is saying: for example:
You: I was thinking along that line, and I was wondering - since Jesus died for us, does that mean it doesn't matter what we do? Doesn't it seem that since he paid for all our sins, that it doesn't matter any more?
Let her believe that she is educating you. Ask questions, don't give answers. She will begin to think her way through things, and start understanding things you've already worked out.
Done that sooo many times. She certainly jumps at the chance to educate me. The thing is, for her there's no such thing as working her way through things - she's a woman of faith, so she already has it all down pat. Of course, if there's anything she doesn't understand, then that's ground to demand complete and instantaneous justification from the scriptures, and if that's not forthcoming then it's clearly not of God anyway.
Of COURSE Jesus died that we might have eternal life (and have it more abundantly) - in fact, although most people don't think about this, Jesus did more than die for us - he also lived for us. God not only requires a forgiven person - but one who has never sinned (the soul that sins is cursed) - Jesus' death was on our behalf - so was His life. When God looks at us, He sees the fact that our sins have been paid for (Jesus' death) and that we have a perfect life to offer him (Jesus') Jesus was our substitute - in life as well as death - and in returning to life. It's because of EVERYTHING He did that we are saved - not just his death. All that would do is leave us in limbo - forgiven, but without a perfect life to offer/
Agreed. What is Jesus without his life? An empty concept to provide purile self-assurance.
In essence, I'd advise you to step back out of the fight: it takes two to dance. Expect her to fight; don't give her anything substantial to fight against:
Impossible I'm afraid. Life inevitably brings issues and events that need relating through. If she's looking to fight, she'll find something to fight against. I withdrew from the fight long ago, and lived the last few years verging on depression from an overwhelming passivity towards life. I'm in the process of picking myself up (that's why I'm on these boards), but it's a long one.
You: Exactly! I was thinking of that passage that says 'give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus....' (1 Thessalonians 5:18)
Can she disagree with that? When you take such a tact, you move things from a 'you vs me' situation to a 'we are in this together' thing.
Very appropriate verse. I always loved a challenge, and I must be thankful for this one. I never knew it could take such a personal toll, however. Ecclesiastes 9 v 5 "Whoever is amongst the living has hope, a live dog is better off than a dead lion". Thanks for the reply, you've been very helpful.
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
wow Pete, i neither knew u had it in ya, nor that u were one of "us!"
hip-hip !
u nailed this one much better than i w/ my simplistic vague hinting approach i must say. bravo my good man, bravo indeed.
u r more learned than i.
u r more thorough than i.
u r more patient that i.
its a good thing we have u on TAM, backing us up!
thus u deserve a long overdue:
its funny u mentioned the socratic method, as i was just thinkin
about that today as part of a reply/PM to Cap P.
one question i have for u Pete is, why u left out Jesus' resurrection in yer analysis posted above?
unless i missed it, i only read yer mention of "his life...& his death" but no acknowledgement of his resurrection.
do u wish to comment?
Cap P, u sure write extremely well too. maybe u & Pete
both have yer doctrates/masters degrees?
Cap P, will get that PM(or here if u plan on stickin' around)out to
ya asap, as i have some pressing biz to tend too it seems.
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
Quote:
unless i missed it, i only read yer mention of "his life...& his death" but no acknowledgement of his resurrection.
do u wish to comment?
Heh heh - I did note it! -- me direct quote:
"....When God looks at us, He sees the fact that our sins have been paid for (Jesus' death) and that we have a perfect life to offer him (Jesus') Jesus was our substitute - in life as well as death - and in returning to life...."
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
Quote:
Impossible I'm afraid. Life inevitably brings issues and events that need relating through. If she's looking to fight, she'll find something to fight against. I withdrew from the fight long ago, and lived the last few years verging on depression from an overwhelming passivity towards life. I'm in the process of picking myself up (that's why I'm on these boards), but it's a long one.
I agree with you in part. Disagreements, problems, things that need to be solved, and there will be times when both of you have what appears to be opposing sides, things that will need to be worked out. This kind of fight, however, is a positive - the goal should be that you fight together for your marriage, rather than against each other. But that wasn't what I was talking about. Yes, if she is looking for something to fight, she'll find something. That's where a completely different tact is needed: think of it as a form of mental judo - you take her momentum and pass it around you and turn it into something positive. Get into a habit of doing that EVERY time you sense the fight starting.
I'm glad you are picking yourself back up. Withdrawing from the fight simply reinforces her self-destructive behavior. It enables her to continue thinking the way she has in the past. Just keep this in mind: "...I can do everything through him who gives me strength...." (Phil 4:13). Also see 2 Corinthians 12:9, Ephesians 3:16 and Colossians 1:11.
RE:
Quote:
Let her believe that she is educating you. Ask questions, don't give answers. She will begin to think her way through things, and start understanding things you've already worked out.
Done that sooo many times. She certainly jumps at the chance to educate me. The thing is, for her there's no such thing as working her way through things - she's a woman of faith, so she already has it all down pat. Of course, if there's anything she doesn't understand, then that's ground to demand complete and instantaneous justification from the scriptures, and if that's not forthcoming then it's clearly not of God anyway.
Several points: the goal is to do more than just let her 'educate' you. It is also to ask questions about meanings, to keep the conversation moving toward true statements of faith, rather than self justifications and platitudes.
It may well be that she doesn't think there's any 'working through things' for her - she may well believe that she knows everything. But you and I and a lot of other people know differently. And most importantly, GOD knows differently. And unless her thoughts become more and more Christlike, they will instead become more and more the opposite.
As for her demanding instantaneous justification from Scriptures, two points:
The first is difficult to overcome: she is full of doubt, and refuses to admit it. You were raised Charismatic (as was I) so we know what is going on. There is a complete legalistic terror of failing - at any point where you are not right, at that point you may well not be saved - so you spend all of your time building a huge structure that justifies all of your thoughts. In essence, you put yourself on the throne of God and dictate what 'will be' to yourself and everyone around you. And when you finally are thrown from that throne and begin to truly understand the gospel, the sense of freedom and peace is indescribable.
Your goal, should you choose to accept it, is to lead her off that throne. She needs the gospel. Of course, she won't hear of it (like it or not, the 'natural' man is enmity with God - and that 'carnal' mind must fall before any growth can happen.
Second point (she wants immediate justification from Scripture.) Although she uses this in an inappropriate way, this is the very point you need do take seriously. Remember the Berean Christians, who checked everything Paul said against the Scriptures? (Acts 17:11). This is where the main portion of your job lies: not to debate her and thump her over the head with the Bible - but to immerse yourself so thoroughly in the Scriptures that you will begin to have those passages in mind when she demands them. Will she pay any attention? Probably not - and definitely not unless the Spirit works within her to change a hardened heart. But - with God all things are possible.
RE:
Quote:
In both conversations you brought up, she did not hear a thing you were saying. But I would like to point out that it is entirely possible that she simply does not have the spiritual growth evident enough to understand what you were saying at all. She hears what she is looking for and operates on that level.
"She hears what she is looking for". If I hadn't seen this written down first I would have sworn that I wrote it myself. So many expressions of what God means to me have been met at the end with a statement by her that shows nothing but that she heard one of her 'key words' in amongst my speel and decided that that was enough to turn it against me. But she's so adamant that she's the one with all the faith and therefore she needs to take control (which is the central idea to this whole thread).
Like I pointed out - it is most likely that she is not capable (yet) of dealing with things at the depth to which you are. She still needs that baby bottle of spiritual milk, you have graduated to meat. And since she is in a combative mode, she only hears key words. These are opportunities for you to behave as a Christian, and show her true love - tough as that may be for you. In essence, I'd take this quite seriously, and consider that she may not yet even have truly had a change of heart (how many fruits of the spirit - love, joy, peace, patience, etc...do you see?)
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
- she needs you to be there, a lighthouse, guiding her to the Lord.
Quote:
Thanks for the resource, I'll check it out. This is the touchpoint for me I think. I'm worried myself because the negative state I've been in for the past few years has meant that prayer and bible study have been a real struggle. I don't place them as a top priority at present. This is something that I'm determined to change, because I know that even if my wife may always use my expression of faith against me, our daughter (who is 6 months old) needs me to be in communion with God for her sake.
It is difficult to get into - but it becomes a strong habit that pays many benefits. In fact, I'd venture so far as to say that there is NO spiritual growth without the Scriptures. They contain everything God wants us to know about Himself - and getting to know God is the point of our growth, eh?
Re: When belief appears to be used as just another control tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capital P
So many times the approach she portrays is that there's no other option but either doing things my way or her way. And if it's my way - then WATCH OUT, because we're going to go through a storm until I give up in exasperation, wondering what on Earth I've done to be such an evil person. For a long time I thought that when she did agree to go 'my way', she genuinely meant it - I gave her the benefit of the doubt because she gave me nothing else to go on (bearing in mind she would refuse to actively communicate 'her way' because that would leave her vulnerable - far less risky to make sure it's me putting myself out there). So now, all I know is that in each and every situation, she's got a way forward and she will not accept any other way but that exact way, however I never have the foggiest idea what that way is until I step forward and get cut down, then step forward again to get cut down again, etc. Eventually, when there's nothing of me left, she'll enforce her way, along with a whole diatribe about how I wouldn't listen to her and just did my own thing.
She often also makes comments about weak men who don't stand up to their woman (which I often assume is a veiled communication to me, whether it is or not is another story.) I certainly feel hen-pecked - I guess I just always believed that men who were hen-pecked by their wives were kind of weak-willed. Serves me right for my judgmental call aye? I am certainly not weak-willed. I just don't do the domination-suppression game - it's pointless[/B]
This is all just your basic Fitness / **** Testing thing here. The fact that it has religious content throw in there is just a smokescreen. She's also plainly telling you that you are failing the tests when she is complaining to you about weak men that can't stand up to their women.
Whether you think you are weak willed or not doesn't matter, she clearly thinks you are in relation to her. This is very important and in no way pointless. Most women have a sexual preference for men that can be dominant in relation to them, and if they don't get it they can become increasingly aggressive towards their husbands, cheat on them, or simply leave them.
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When belief appears to be used as just another control tool 
They have their strgths/wknesses like
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