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post #91 of 220 (permalink) Old 12-23-2013, 10:00 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

Written strictly with a view to underpinning my assertion that the Founding Fathers of America were NOT all Christians.

Washington:
"...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction." [responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ]

"If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists...." [to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon]

Adams:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." [The Treaty of Tripoli: submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797, and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797]

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" [letter to Thomas Jefferson]

Jefferson:
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." [Notes on Virginia, 1782]

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." [letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787]

Madis0n:
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." [letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774]

Franklin:
...some books against Deism fell into my hands; . . . The arguments of the Deists . . . appeared to me much stronger than the refutation; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist. [autobiography]

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." [Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion 1728]

Paine:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

Lincoln:
"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession." [Spoken by Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis]

"It was everywhere contended that no Christian ought to vote for me because I belonged to no church, and was suspected of being a Deist." [writing to his supporters after he lost a campaign for Congress, 1843]

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post #92 of 220 (permalink) Old 12-23-2013, 10:45 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

Quote:
Quote by Simply Amorous (SA)
Hey Blunt, you are a Humble Christian who invites a spiritual challenge, LOVE YOUR TYPE....you listen, you don't immediately resort to scripture defense....you do your best to find understanding when things don't make a whole lot of sense... show mercy, A loving God would want this...
Thank you SA, that is a very high compliment and I try to live up to that persona but I do not always succeed.



Quote:
Your friend Kirby... it's hard for me to understand...although his spiritual beliefs brought him comfort, I can't see me reacting like that under those same circumstances at least not at 1st
I feel the same as you SA, just cannot see me being that spiritual, God would have to help me.




Quote:
....It takes a very grounded believer to have the Faith & resolve as your friend... to expect this from all of us.. it's not going to happen....we have to work through it ...and this is NOT easy at all.
I do not expect that from all in fact I doubt that I would be that grounded. However, what Kirby did impressed me!! Frankly I do not believe that mankind can react that way unless God’s spirit comes to him in an unusual way. As a man Kirby is not very impressive but how he has lived his life the last 15-20 years is something that takes the spirit of God to be involved and is very powerful, IMO. What Kirby has demonstrated with his life has built my faith more than hundreds of discussions on spirituality. Don’t get me wrong, I like to have good discussions on spirituality but talk just does not it for me like the long term actions of someone living the spiritual life!



Quote:
Prayers for Bobby: Movies & TV True story... this Mother sure learned the hard way... which person do you think had more Compassion.. the Mother who brow beat her son with scripture & shamed him -told him God can help him change... or the one she became , after he killed himself to speak for these homosexuales..
This part really helped to clarify my position on the homosexual question (Thanks again SA!). The main message of God-Jesus is COMPASSION. Yes we have to make decisions on positions of homosexuality and other issues but I feel that the teachings of Jesus are overwhelming promoting true compassion. Not mushy or fake compassion but the kind of compassion that Jesus demonstrated.


It has been hard for me in the past to stay away from being the defender of my faith. What I mean is that I have been energized in the past by proclaiming what is sin. I still do that on rare occasions if I think that it will do some good. But I also like to remember the picture that I have hanging on my wall that has the words of:
“ I prayed for justice, then I examined myself and then I prayed for mercy”


Life and God has moved me off the judgment seat on several occasions!


However, I know that Christ’s call for compassion-Love is dominate. Christ summed it up very nicely when He said
Matthew 22
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


I am not the authority on what is sin but it is my desire to strive to fulfill the greatest commandments of God that is stated in Matthew 22 above.

My main responsibility in the homosexual issue is to leave out my judgment of the homosexual’s soul and insert the compassion that Jesus demonstrated. If I get too involved with pointing out other people’s sins I will snuff out Christ’s compassion. That would derail my actions in strive to please God and get closer to His greatest commandments.
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post #93 of 220 (permalink) Old 12-24-2013, 12:14 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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I'm not going to pretend to know whether there is a ranking order to sin in God's eyes. If there is, however, I'd take a guess that being gay isn't at the top of the list. More lives are destroyed by greed, rage, murder, etc. and I think that as mortals with a finite term on earth, we have to prioritize what we choose to go after when we're screaming at people.


When I was starting to "loose my religion" I was studying things like this....this EQUAL sin business has bothered me for a lifetime.... I remember reading a ton on both sides of this.. if all sins are equal (which I can't find any reason in whatsoever, might as well throw it out the window)... that lets say... a Mother steals a loaf of bread to feed her starving child....vs a Ted Bundy serial killer.... I had Christians arguing with me they are the same, both worthy of hell..(To me, this makes God a Monster, I can't swallow it)...but I get where they are coming from, that we ALL SIN...Ok...

And obviously on earth, with our reason, we deal with the consequences very differently... In my view GOD is reasonable also ....

LIke.... how do we just throw "motivation and intention out the window" here... I can't do that...... I wanted so bad to prove them wrong, I took it upon myself to study these 2 sides...and guess what... scripture appears to support BOTH... that all sins are the same... and that indeed some sins are weighter....so what does one do with that !

To support my view....Jesus suggested that some sins are worse than others when he told the Pharisees they were straining at a gnat (something little, but still bad) but swallowed a camel (something bigger and worse). “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel” (Matthew 23: 23 – 24).

Then there was Jesus’ words to Pilate? He said, “The one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin” (John 19:11).

That was pretty clear !

Quote:
Fozzy said: As a matter of potential impact on lives, a jaywalker has more chance of wrecking my day than what someone does behind closed doors. I still don't stop the car to yell at jaywalkers.

If it's a sin, God will sort it out in His own time with that person. My calling on earth isn't to be God's policeman, it's to show as much grace and mercy as I can.
My feelings also.

Matthew 11:23-24 says, “If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” Because these people refused to soften their hearts, Jesus tells them that they will have an even harsher judgment and punishment than two towns destroyed for their wickedness.

As I understand ...Pride is THE SIN that is the worst...it taints every virtue.... Humility, Generosity, Meekness, Kindness, Temperance...etc

Quote:
Mr Blunt said: This part really helped to clarify my position on the homosexual question (Thanks again SA!). The main message of God-Jesus is COMPASSION. Yes we have to make decisions on positions of homosexuality and other issues but I feel that the teachings of Jesus are overwhelming promoting true compassion. Not mushy or fake compassion but the kind of compassion that Jesus demonstrated.
That's right... it's about putting yourself in another shoes and having compassion. No matter our beliefs... just being inspired by Jesus Teachings, or others in our own lives (Like your friend Kirby)...and knowing how WE would want to be treated ourselves -somehow gives us the Power -the will to give back like that...

I like this quote.. but pretty much how I look upon these things...

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post #94 of 220 (permalink) Old 12-24-2013, 01:31 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

SA, have you read any Lorna Byrne books? She is an Irish mystic who sees angels.

She said the angels have told her that we have free will and are creating our future. A different position than, "God is in control."
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post #95 of 220 (permalink) Old 12-27-2013, 01:43 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Originally Posted by daSaint View Post
...no one was born to be gay...people just chose that (twisted) lifestlyle!
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You don't really believe that do you? That people choose to be gay?

Seriously???
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post #96 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-02-2014, 09:05 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Originally Posted by daSaint View Post
no one is born gay! like begets like. Straight begets straight. Gay begets...oh sorry - nothing. Why do you feel homosexuality is ok but not bestiality & paedophilia? A person will feel strange passion/desires at one/many times, but does that mean you should fulfill them? If a 12yr old seduces you, will you have sex with him/her? Or if you love your dog and it has a big/thick erect ****, will you have sex with your dog? Instill in a child to KNOW that being gay is NOT an option, so that when s/he feels those passions, s/he knows not to entertain them.
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Sounds like you might be struggling with an unnatural love for dogs. If you pray hard enough..Oooh sorry scratch the word HARD, if you pray reverently enough, your unnatural doggy lust will be taken away be Jesus! Amen.
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post #97 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-02-2014, 10:41 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

I went online and read up on the relevant Bible verses. I read several scriptures prohibiting homosexual acts, but none condemning a homosexual mindset.

Either way, it seems that a homosexual marriage is against God's word. I'll agree that it makes no sense to create someone with an urge they cannot properly fulfill. But if you accept the Bible as divine, you really cannot reach another conclusion.

That being said I don't agree with these various religious figures arguing that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry. I believe that Christians are called to be kind and compassionate as an example to others. Forbidding such marriages legislatively, IMO, is essentially state-sponsored discrimination.

Historically, people were treated badly when the government says you are not entitled to the same rights as most other people (see our pre-Civil Rights movement history). Banning gay marriage will only legitimize to an extent the current bias many people have against homosexuals, which is neither kind nor compassionate. It's not reasonable to think that you can ban gay marriage and gay people will be treated the same as any other person in non-sexual situations.
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post #98 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-03-2014, 03:19 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

[QUOTE=SimplyAmorous;6197033]I'd be very Angry that my son was lost...the WHY WHY WHY would be on my lips for some time.....the waste of that event, or blaming what led up to it, learning from it anyway...what his son did was out of pure love, why did he have to be taken, it is so very cruel... when others escape drunk driving & things where they brought the near death upon themselves.

For someone like me.....it is even more comforting to believe there is no God over believing He cares about us....then allowing stuff like THAT TO HAPPEN... it's too hard to swallow...

When I read Job the 1st time, probably in my teens, I remember understanding his wife...what was her words >> "Curse God and die" ....honestly I think this would be a normal 1st reaction to most people... Angry with God for unfair pain & catastrophes coming upon them..and not letting up....It takes a very grounded believer to have the Faith & resolve as your friend... to expect this from all of us.. it's not going to happen....we have to work through it ...and this is NOT easy at all.

I don't have the answers to these questions...




Monks ..and all these...taking vows they can not keep, which is pure torture.. I was reading how many "hail marys" a Monk has to do for masturbation, etc... Oh my goodness..... I see no point in this ...LIKE AT ALL.... but that's just my personal opinion. I am pretty conservative in many ways .. but some things go beyond reason..... END QUOTE


My uncle, the Catholic bishop, when asked why God permitted suffering, would say 'I/We do not know'. I find religion much more impressive when it does not pretend to have all the answers. One can of course argue that it ennobles us (which it may do but not always) or that Christ on the Cross shares our suffering but these do not fully answer the question.

As for chastity, I, a Catholic, agree that land use was a factor in past decisions (does that mean I am not an apologist?).

Monasticism has a rather different origin, as it emerged before the Church became allied, rather unfortunately I think, with the Roman state. Men (and women) went off into the desert to practice their (sometimes persecuted) faith. Some found that being unmarried enabled them to concentrate more successfully on the main commandments (love God and love your neighbour (i.e. everyone)) and that they could pursue their vocation most effectively subject to a rule (like St Benedict's) and therefore formed monasteries.

The origin of the word monk is monos - Greek for sole or alone - so it would be a contradiction in terms for a monk to be part of a couple. Celibacy is part of the calling, and of course it is meant to be voluntary (did not always work that way in the past) and monasteries are generally advised to make it difficult for novices to join, to test their resolve.

Which is not say that monastic life is easy - I rather think it is more easily led by those with LD.

As for the original point of the OP, I look to the Scriptures where it says 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice'. I think that is what Christ considered most important.
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post #99 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-03-2014, 03:50 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

I often wonder who wrote the bible?

Some person (or people) interpreted God's message.

I am pretty sure they made a number of mistakes.
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post #100 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-03-2014, 07:36 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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I often wonder who wrote the bible?

Some person (or people) interpreted God's message.

I am pretty sure they made a number of mistakes.
I have gone to Christian schools my whole life... a good and sometimes bad thing....Holy Scripture was written by men who are inspired by God, Christ, Holy Spirit... the 3 in1. To be inspired by God means to be God-breathed, which is different than interpreting God's Word

There are NO mistakes in the Holy Scriptures because the Trinity, while yes using men, his greatest creation, wrote HIS Love Book to Humanity.

It's such a hard concept for us all to grasp.

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post #101 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-03-2014, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

I feel like even if it's good to read the Bible, one can't deem it as very accurate.

God says something, the Disciples say their version, the prophets say their version, people say their version, and Bible continues to be watered down.

Last edited by Curious_Guy; 01-04-2014 at 12:07 AM.
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post #102 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-04-2014, 01:43 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

[SIZE="3"]The Bible has influenced the whole western world for over 1500 years. It has been attacked and examined by some of the greatest minds in the entire western world for over 1500 years. Some of the greatest scientist the world has ever known has attested to the greatness of the Bible.

People on the internet can give their 1-2 paragraph opinions (mostly void of any facts) but the bible will continue to have great influence, value, and be the greatest book ever written.

In case anyone wants a few facts (instead of opinions) that the Bible is great and unique, you can read several below:[/SIZE]


The uniqueness and greatness of the Bible


I Written over a 1500 year time span and in many different countries

II Written by more than 40 authors from all walks of life:
Political Leader-Moses
King-David
Herdsman-Amos
Military General-Joshua
Prime Minister-Daniel
Philosopher- Solomon
Physician-Luke
Fisherman-Peter
Rabbi-Paul

III Written in three languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek

IV Written in a variety of literary styles:
Poetry, historical narrative, song, romance, biography, autobiography,
Law, prophecy


V Addressed hot topics: With an amazing degree of harmony
Marriage, divorce, remarriage, homosexuality, adultery, obedience to
Authority, Character development, parenting, nature and revelation of God.

CONCIDER;
Take just 10 authors (Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Shakespeare, Hume Kant, Darwin, etc) from the Great Books of the Western World with one generation, one time, one language and all addressing one controversial subject. Would the authors agree with one another?

If a person were sincerely seeking the truth would they not consider seriously the Bible’s unique quality in terms of its continuity?


VI The Bible has sold more than a BILLION copies over a 2000-year period. No
other book in history comes close to this reality.

VII The Bible has been translated into more than 2,200 languages. No
other book in history comes close to this reality.


VIII Compared with other ancient writings, the Bible has more manuscript evidence to support it than any ten pieces of classical literature combined.


CONSIDER:
Jews preserved the Bible as no other manuscript has been preserved. With their massora (parva, magna, and finalis) they kept tabs on every letter, syllable, word and paragraph. They had special classes of men within their culture whose sole duty was to preserve and transmit these documents with practically perfect fidelity----scribes, lawyers, and massoretes.
Who ever counted the letters and syllables and words of Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Shakespeare, Hume, and Darwin?


IX The Bible has withstood persecution. Many powerful countries have tried to ban and outlaw the bible from the Roman Empire to modern day communism.

CONSIDER:
In AD 303, the Roman Emperor Dioclectian issued an edict to stop Christians from worshipping and to destroy their scriptures. Twenty-five years later the Roman Emperor Constantine issued an edict ordering those fifty copies of the Scriptures should be prepared at the government’s expense

The French infidel Voltaire’s prediction of the extinction of Christianity and the Bible in a hundred years Geisler and Nix point out that “only 50 years after his death the Geneva Bible Society used Voltaire’s printing press and house to produce stacks of Bibles”
The Bible’s enemies come and go but the Bible remains.
If the Bible had not been the book of God, men would have destroyed it long ago.


The Assured Results of Higher Criticism developed the “documentary hypothesis” that the Pentateuch could not have been written by Moses, as the “assured results of higher criticism” had proven that writing was not in existence at the time of Moses or, if in existence, was used sparingly. Therefore, it was concluded that it had to be of later authorship.
Then some fellows discovered the “black stele.” It had wedged shape characters on it and contained the detail of Hammurabi which post dated Moses writings buy at least three centuries.



X Prophecy

CONSIDER
Other books claim divine inspiration, such as the Koran, the Book of Mormon, and parts of the (Hindu) Veda. But none of these books contains predictive prophecy.
Mohammedanism cannot point to any prophecies of the coming of Mohammed uttered hundreds of years before his birth.

XI Character

The bible deals very frankly with the sins of its characters, even when those sins reflect badly on God’s chosen people, leaders, and the biblical writers themselves.

For Example:

The sins of the patriarchs are mentioned in Genesis chapter 12 and 49.
The sins of the people are denounced in Deaut. 9
King David’s adultery with Bathsheba in 2nd Samuel 11-12
The Gospel’s Evangelist paint their own faults and those of the apostles
The disorder in the church is exposed in 1 Corinthians 1 and 15 also in 2nd Corinth 2
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post #103 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-04-2014, 09:38 AM
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What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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I have gone to Christian schools my whole life... a good and sometimes bad thing....Holy Scripture was written by men who are inspired by God, Christ, Holy Spirit... the 3 in1. To be inspired by God means to be God-breathed, which is different than interpreting God's Word



There are NO mistakes in the Holy Scriptures because the Trinity, while yes using men, his greatest creation, wrote HIS Love Book to Humanity.



It's such a hard concept for us all to grasp.

No mistakes in there? Not even one?
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post #104 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-04-2014, 01:53 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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No mistakes in there? Not even one?
No mistakes in the MAIN message, NONE
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post #105 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-04-2014, 11:49 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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No mistakes in the MAIN message, NONE
Ah yes, a great dodge. Any error is just "not part of the main message." LOL
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