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post #106 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 12:16 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Originally Posted by hawkeye View Post
Ah yes, a great dodge. Any error is just "not part of the main message." LOL
Fair comment, but on the other hand there is a whole lot of thought that needs to go into an intelligent reading of the bible.

I can point you to examples of what Blunt is talking about. The two accounts of the death of Judas is a good example.

Can you point out an error that destroys the main message? Ie can you prove Blunt wrong?

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post #107 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 12:25 AM
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What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

No, because his standard is so vague it's essentially meaningless.
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post #108 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 03:29 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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No, because his standard is so vague it's essentially meaningless.
What he was saying is if you understand the background and literary forms of the bible the main message is consistent. On the other hand, if you want to nit pick, you can find things to nit pick about.

Is it simple? Heck no. But life is complicated, God is complicated. You want to wrap ultimate truth up in a thirty second sound bite. Good luck with that.

Religion is a matter of faith. Choosing to believe the message about a God whose existence you cannot categorically prove is a matter of faith. Choosing not to believe in a God whose existence you cannot categorically disprove is likewise a matter of faith.
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post #109 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 09:43 AM
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What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Originally Posted by Wazza View Post
What he was saying is if you understand the background and literary forms of the bible the main message is consistent. On the other hand, if you want to nit pick, you can find things to nit pick about.



Is it simple? Heck no. But life is complicated, God is complicated. You want to wrap ultimate truth up in a thirty second sound bite. Good luck with that.



Religion is a matter of faith. Choosing to believe the message about a God whose existence you cannot categorically prove is a matter of faith. Choosing not to believe in a God whose existence you cannot categorically disprove is likewise a matter of faith.

Why couldn't the almighty god come up with a better holy book? Is this really the best he could do? Something so convoluted that there are a zillion different denominations who all have different interpretations? Oh wait, don't bother, that's just us fallen, sinful humans - too stupid to figure out gods perfect holy book.

And not believing in a god does not require faith. If you think so you don't understand the word.
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post #110 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 11:06 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Why couldn't the almighty god come up with a better holy book? Is this really the best he could do? Something so convoluted that there are a zillion different denominations who all have different interpretations? Oh wait, don't bother, that's just us fallen, sinful humans - too stupid to figure out gods perfect holy book.

And not believing in a god does not require faith. If you think so you don't understand the word.
Prove to me God doesn't exist. If you can't prove it, explain to me why you regard it as something other than a step of faith to be sure God does not exist.
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post #111 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 02:21 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Prove to me God doesn't exist. If you can't prove it, explain to me why you regard it as something other than a step of faith to be sure God does not exist.
Burden of proof. Who has it? Hint: it ain't me.
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post #112 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 02:38 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Burden of proof. Who has it? Hint: it ain't me.
You made statements, I questioned them. You have been unable to prove them. Of course you don't need to, but then if you can't back up what you say, none needs to take your opinions seriously.

There is a whole world out there. Some parts can be proven, some can be reasonably hypothesised about scientifically, and then there is a whole realm of truth about beauty, philosophy, spirituality and so on, for which the scientific method has been as ham fisted a tool as using a lump hammer to drive screws.

I can tell you its worth checking out. Whether you do it is up to you.
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post #113 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 02:42 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Originally Posted by Wazza View Post
Prove to me God doesn't exist. If you can't prove it, explain to me why you regard it as something other than a step of faith to be sure God does not exist.
It's actually not that hard. Pick any god besides your own (i.e Zeus or Odin). Give reasons why you don't believe in that god. Now apply those reasons to your own god.

Most people are atheists for the vast majority of gods that have ever existed in the world, but some of us have gone one god further.
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post #114 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 02:50 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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You made statements, I questioned them. You have been unable to prove them. Of course you don't need to, but then if you can't back up what you say, none needs to take your opinions seriously.

There is a whole world out there. Some parts can be proven, some can be reasonably hypothesised about scientifically, and then there is a whole realm of truth about beauty, philosophy, spirituality and so on, for which the scientific method has been as ham fisted a tool as using a lump hammer to drive screws.

I can tell you its worth checking out. Whether you do it is up to you.
This isn't difficult at all. If I made the claim that a god DOES NOT EXIST, I would have to be able to prove that. I'm NOT making that claim. I simply do not believe any god claims I've heard thus far.

Like Coffee Amore astutely points out, what's your view on Zeus? Does it take FAITH do not believe in Zeus? No. Because there's no evidence that such a being exists.
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post #115 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 05:24 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

I believe in God. I approach God through the Christian teaching and tradition. There are two separate decisions there.

If someone pursues God through another tradition I respect that. I admit to not having discussed spiritual matters with a follower of Zeus or Odin lately.

I guess I could focus more on comparative religious experience. Would I be better off in Muslim or Shinto? I just think it is a better use of my time to pick a path and follow it.

By faith. I can argue for the reasonableness of it and why I believe it. I can't prove it though.

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post #116 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 07:11 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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No mistakes in there? Not even one?
No mistakes in the MAIN message, NONE

By Wazza
Can you point out an error that destroys the main message? Ie can you prove Blunt wrong?

By Hawkeye
No, because his standard is so vague it's essentially meaningless.
A main message
Mankind has fallen into selfishness
Mankind has separated himself from God
God wants to forgive and redeem mankind
God paid the price to give mankind a chance to be reconciled back to Him

Now I have been very specific about two issues. They are:
1 The uniqueness and greatness of the Bible
2 A main message of the Bible



Hawkeye, so far you have made the judgment that I am dogging, vague, and that my position is meaningless.
In addition to you being judgmental, have you been vague?

Hawkeye, so far all you have just told us is what you do not believe (see your quote below). What meaning does that have?


Quote:
Quote of Hawkeye
I'm NOT making that claim. I simply do not believe any god claims I've heard thus far.
Hawkeye, How about you tell us what you believe instead of being judgmental and vague? Of course you do not have to tell us anything you can just keep taking shots at the Bible and the Christian faith without taking a stand but I think Wazza has already addressed that with his quote below

Quote:
By Wazza
“…if you can't back up what you say, none needs to take your opinions seriously”
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post #117 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 08:01 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Originally Posted by Mr Blunt View Post
A main message
Mankind has fallen into selfishness
Mankind has separated himself from God
God wants to forgive and redeem mankind
God paid the price to give mankind a chance to be reconciled back to Him

Now I have been very specific about two issues. They are:
1 The uniqueness and greatness of the Bible
2 A main message of the Bible



Hawkeye, so far you have made the judgment that I am dogging, vague, and that my position is meaningless.
In addition to you being judgmental, have you been vague?

Hawkeye, so far all you have just told us is what you do not believe (see your quote below). What meaning does that have?




Hawkeye, How about you tell us what you believe instead of being judgmental and vague? Of course you do not have to tell us anything you can just keep taking shots at the Bible and the Christian faith without taking a stand but I think Wazza has already addressed that with his quote below
There seems to a basic misunderstanding of what atheism is, what burden of proof is, and who the burden of proof falls upon. This was explained earlier, but I guess I'll go through it again.

- I am not making any claim about a god, ie: whether one exists or not
- I simply say I don't believe the claims that have been made
- those who claim there is a god have the burden of proof to provide evidence of that claim
- if you can't provide that evidence, there is no good reason to believe it (and you yourselves admit there is no evidence because you say you have to have faith)

The other way to look at it was also laid out earlier.... Do you believe in Zeus? I guarantee you approach and answer that question the same way I do about your god. Now, does it take "faith" to not believe in Zeus? Are you making some kind of claim about the world by not believing in Zeus?

As far as what I do believe...what specifically do you want to know?
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post #118 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 08:38 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Originally Posted by hawkeye View Post
There seems to a basic misunderstanding of what atheism is, what burden of proof is, and who the burden of proof falls upon. This was explained earlier, but I guess I'll go through it again.

- I am not making any claim about a god, ie: whether one exists or not
- I simply say I don't believe the claims that have been made
- those who claim there is a god have the burden of proof to provide evidence of that claim
- if you can't provide that evidence, there is no good reason to believe it (and you yourselves admit there is no evidence because you say you have to have faith)

The other way to look at it was also laid out earlier.... Do you believe in Zeus? I guarantee you approach and answer that question the same way I do about your god. Now, does it take "faith" to not believe in Zeus? Are you making some kind of claim about the world by not believing in Zeus?

As far as what I do believe...what specifically do you want to know?
"I can't prove it, faith is required" is not the same as "there is no evidence".

The evidence I see is not mathematically conclusive in the same way that some scientific evidence is. To me the creation does provide evidence of the creator, though.

I'd like to know, are you atheist (does not believe there is a God) or agnostic (doesn't know).
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post #119 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 09:26 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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By Hawkeye
As far as what I do believe...what specifically do you want to know?
Can’t you state your main beliefs like I did?

Ok I will ask you a few specific questions about beliefs



Do you believe that mankind has fallen into selfishness?

Do you believe there is such a thing as sin?

Do you believe in any superior being which also includes being morally superior?

Do you believe that you have fallen morally and need someone other than yourself to get forgiveness?

Do you believe that a person has an eternal soul?

Do you believe that after death that a person can live in a life that is better than this life?

Do you believe that mankind has all the answers to life and death?
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post #120 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 10:15 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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"I can't prove it, faith is required" is not the same as "there is no evidence".

The evidence I see is not mathematically conclusive in the same way that some scientific evidence is. To me the creation does provide evidence of the creator, though.

I'd like to know, are you atheist (does not believe there is a God) or agnostic (doesn't know).
Again, your terms are wrong. Agnosticism/gnosticism is about knowledge. Theism/Atheism is about belief. Everybody is one of each. I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't KNOW there is no god, but I don't believe in one. I'd venture a guess that most atheists are agnostic atheists. Hell, I'd venture most religious folks are agnostic theists if they'd be honest with themselves.

If your only proof is god is "creation", you really have no proof. I can claim anything "created" it all and have just as much proof as you.
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