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post #121 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-05-2014, 10:21 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Can’t you state your main beliefs like I did?

Ok I will ask you a few specific questions about beliefs
Well, atheism is a lack of belief in a single solitary claim. What my "main beliefs" are is incredibly vague. I believe Dodge makes the best trucks. I believe Old Milwaukee is an underrated beer. I believe it's really cold outside right now.

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Do you believe that mankind has fallen into selfishness?
Mankind has always been selfish. Hell, just your Old Testament as a guide. The Israelites roamed around raping and pillaging everything, by their god's divine decree, of course. Are we worse than that? I'd say no.

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Do you believe there is such a thing as sin?
As defined as some violation of a supernatural being's law? No.

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Do you believe in any superior being which also includes being morally superior?
No.

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Do you believe that you have fallen morally and need someone other than yourself to get forgiveness?
Fallen from what? Christ this stuff is weird. The only people I would need forgiveness from are the ones I've harmed in some way.

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Do you believe that a person has an eternal soul?
No.

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Do you believe that after death that a person can live in a life that is better than this life?
No.

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Do you believe that mankind has all the answers to life and death?
Again, weird question. I guess obviously not since we still die.


And for what it's worth, I was a Christian for the first 25 years or so of my life. I get how it works.

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post #122 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 12:58 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

Hawkeye
You DO NOT believe in:

Sin
A superior being
Mankind has an eternal soul
life after death


Quote:
Quote of Hawkeye
What my "main beliefs" are is incredibly vague.
You are the person that said vague beliefs are meaningless. Your own judgments are coming back to bite you!

You told us what you do not believe in and that your beliefs are vague. You never did tell us what you DO believe in.
You did tell us what your non-spiritual beliefs are in a reprint of your words below. I don’t know if you are trying to be funny or be cute but your beliefs have nothing to do with my questions that you solicited or relationships and spirituality. Makes me wonder why you post on this Spirituality and Relationship forum.


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Quote of Hawkeye
I believe Dodge makes the best trucks. I believe Old Milwaukee is an underrated beer. I believe it's really cold outside right now.


Quote:
Do you believe that you have fallen morally and need someone other than yourself to get forgiveness?

Quote of Hawkeye
Fallen from what? Christ this stuff is weird.
And for what it's worth, I was a Christian for the first 25 years or so of my life. I get how it works.
My question is not weird stuff at all. You tell us that you have been a Christian for 25 years and know how it works. Then you know exactly what I am talking about and your attempt to judge my question as weird stuff tells me a lot about you.

You have given nothing but a bunch of no answers and nothing about spiritual beliefs. In addition, you seem to be compelled to make a lot of negative judgments and attempt to mock inquiries about the Christian faith.


Your attempt at mocking Christianity is obvious. I have no interest in discussing spirituality with you so stop responding to me. Your game is up.
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post #123 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 04:38 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Originally Posted by hawkeye View Post
Again, your terms are wrong. Agnosticism/gnosticism is about knowledge. Theism/Atheism is about belief. Everybody is one of each. I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't KNOW there is no god, but I don't believe in one. I'd venture a guess that most atheists are agnostic atheists. Hell, I'd venture most religious folks are agnostic theists if they'd be honest with themselves.

If your only proof is god is "creation", you really have no proof. I can claim anything "created" it all and have just as much proof as you.
Right or wrong terms.....well I am not really interested in splitting hairs over semantics. I think I used the words as they are commonly used in modern English. I think the concepts of knowledge and belief are related. So you are saying you cannot disprove God, but you haven't found a notion of God that leads you to belief, I can respect that.

Creation....well I see evidence of God in things, you don't, that's ok. No proof? Well I started by talking about faith taking over when proof leaves off. You can indeed claim something else created the universe, or nothing did. Anyone reading this can look at all we have and ask whether this amazingness "just happened".
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post #124 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 07:53 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Originally Posted by Mr Blunt View Post
Hawkeye
You DO NOT believe in:

Sin
A superior being
Mankind has an eternal soul
life after death



You are the person that said vague beliefs are meaningless. Your own judgments are coming back to bite you!

You told us what you do not believe in and that your beliefs are vague. You never did tell us what you DO believe in.
You did tell us what your non-spiritual beliefs are in a reprint of your words below. I don’t know if you are trying to be funny or be cute but your beliefs have nothing to do with my questions that you solicited or relationships and spirituality. Makes me wonder why you post on this Spirituality and Relationship forum.






My question is not weird stuff at all. You tell us that you have been a Christian for 25 years and know how it works. Then you know exactly what I am talking about and your attempt to judge my question as weird stuff tells me a lot about you.

You have given nothing but a bunch of no answers and nothing about spiritual beliefs. In addition, you seem to be compelled to make a lot of negative judgments and attempt to mock inquiries about the Christian faith.


Your attempt at mocking Christianity is obvious. I have no interest in discussing spirituality with you so stop responding to me. Your game is up.
I don't understand what you're so wound up about. I answered ever single question you asked truthfully.

Believe it or not, NO is a valid answer. And not only that, I don't have any spiritual beliefs. What am I supposed to tell you about beliefs I don't possess?

EDIT: Also, I appreciate your thinly-veiled threat of hell. Classic Christian move. Judge not, and stuff.
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post #125 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 07:57 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Right or wrong terms.....well I am not really interested in splitting hairs over semantics. I think I used the words as they are commonly used in modern English. I think the concepts of knowledge and belief are related. So you are saying you cannot disprove God, but you haven't found a notion of God that leads you to belief, I can respect that.

Creation....well I see evidence of God in things, you don't, that's ok. No proof? Well I started by talking about faith taking over when proof leaves off. You can indeed claim something else created the universe, or nothing did. Anyone reading this can look at all we have and ask whether this amazingness "just happened".
It's not splitting hairs. Words have meanings for a reason. Yes, everybody uses them wrong, but I think it's worth trying to explain the correct usage because I think it's a very important distinction.

Yes, belief and knowledge are related. But they are not the same. I belief the sun won't blow up in my life time. I do not KNOW that. Those are two entirely different statements, not two sides of the same coin.
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post #126 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 11:47 AM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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It's not splitting hairs. Words have meanings for a reason. Yes, everybody uses them wrong, but I think it's worth trying to explain the correct usage because I think it's a very important distinction.

Yes, belief and knowledge are related. But they are not the same. I belief the sun won't blow up in my life time. I do not KNOW that. Those are two entirely different statements, not two sides of the same coin.
"Everybody uses them wrong". "Wrongly"sir. Poor grammar in such a phrase weakens your case.

Common usage is what establishes the meaning of words in my view. Actually I could have referred to the OED and argued that it supports my usage (look it up) but I am not interested in that. If you are, it's been nice chatting. You seemed to concede implicitly that my usage was that which most people understand, so I will go with that.

We understand (I hope) what each other mean by the words and by common usage I view your position as agnosticism. We are not that far apart.

Both of us, I think, acknowledge that there is not sufficient proof to know for sure that God does or does not exist. We both choose to back our belief while recognising what I called the leap of faith involved. (What you called the agnostic aspect of our respective positions).

Look more closely at creation, my friend. Look at the meticulous work of the creator.
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post #127 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 12:15 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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"Everybody uses them wrong". "Wrongly"sir. Poor grammar in such a phrase weakens your case.

Common usage is what establishes the meaning of words in my view. Actually I could have referred to the OED and argued that it supports my usage (look it up) but I am not interested in that. If you are, it's been nice chatting. You seemed to concede implicitly that my usage was that which most people understand, so I will go with that.

We understand (I hope) what each other mean by the words and by common usage I view your position as agnosticism. We are not that far apart.

Both of us, I think, acknowledge that there is not sufficient proof to know for sure that God does or does not exist. We both choose to back our belief while recognising what I called the leap of faith involved. (What you called the agnostic aspect of our respective positions).

Look more closely at creation, my friend. Look at the meticulous work of the creator.
Well, moving on to the work of this creator then....what about it? Was it he who designed us to breath and eat through the same pipe? What of all the humans who existed before the time of bible? What about them?

Also, for fun, I'll agree for the sake of argument that the "creation" does in fact prove a god exists. Great. Now what? You're still a million miles away from being able to know anything about it, whether it has any preferences, likes or dislikes, it's attitude, it's attributes....anything.

Actually, just watch this video, only 4 minutes of it...the first two and then 8:00 until the end. Hitchens does a better job of attacking these points than I do. Christopher Hitchens vs God (god loses by the way) - YouTube
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post #128 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 02:50 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

At work, will watch video later. Have seen some Hitchens.....at least he's not as bad as that arrogant windbag Dawkins.

Not sure about the significance of humans who existed before the bible. Nor why having one throat is so amazingly bad. Please explain?

You are right...conceding the existence of a God doesn't necessarily prove it is the Christian God. So play along a bit further. If you concluded there was a God and you should know about that God, how would you start?
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post #129 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 02:54 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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At work, will watch video later. Have seen some Hitchens.....at least he's not as bad as that arrogant windbag Dawkins.
That's surprising. I always thought Hitchens was far more arrogant, although I loved him for it.

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Not sure about the significance of humans who existed before the bible. Nor why having one throat is so amazingly bad. Please explain?
Just that it's crappy design.

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You are right...conceding the existence of a God doesn't necessarily prove it is the Christian God. So play along a bit further. If you concluded there was a God and you should know about that God, how would you start?
Scientific method and look for evidence.
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post #130 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 07:58 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

One throat.....how amazing is the intricacy of the machinery that makes it work? What sort of "engineering" implications would arise from a different design? I need to be convinced there is something better out there. I don't think it's crappy. I think it's amazing.

Scientific method can't solve every problem. There is a place for other types of reasoning. You are like a person who decides the only tool in his kit will be wrenches, then finds he cannot cut wood or drive screws. We both agree that we cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. Therefore this is a question that, today, we cannot answer via scientific method.

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post #131 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 08:08 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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One throat.....how amazing is the intricacy of the machinery that makes it work? What sort of "engineering" implications would arise from a different design? I need to be convinced there is something better out there. I don't think it's crappy. I think it's amazing.
A perfect god couldn't come up with one tube for food and one for air? C'mon. It's an awful design.

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Scientific method can't solve every problem. There is a place for other types of reasoning. You are like a person who decides the only tool in his kit will be wrenches, then finds he cannot cut wood or drive screws. We both agree that we cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. Therefore this is a question that, today, we cannot answer via scientific method.
How else would you propose to find an answer? As far as I'm concerned the scientific method is the single best method we have for discovering how things work. It's the single best tool in the toolbox. You're like a person who decides that instead of saw, you're going to pray for the wood to cut itself.
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post #132 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 09:00 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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A perfect god couldn't come up with one tube for food and one for air? C'mon. It's an awful design.

You make a bold statement here. I assume you have done a design evaluation. Or, are you just making a comment to try and make fun of those who believe in Jesus?

How else would you propose to find an answer? As far as I'm concerned the scientific method is the single best method we have for discovering how things work. It's the single best tool in the toolbox. You're like a person who decides that instead of saw, you're going to pray for the wood to cut itself.
So how were we created? There is only two methods to choose from 1) we evolved or we were created via luck and chance or 2) some force designed and created this world we live in including all Life.

If you choose number #1, I will tell you that it can be proven that evolution does not hold water at all. If one understands the physical laws of the universe, it is impossible to have happened


Or, more simply, you can examine in detail all living systems on earth - look at the brilliance of the design and how all life is intermingled and know that life on earth was created by a brilliant creator. Even a child can see this - and has no problem in believing in God.

I have read your posts - you are either just bored and want to make fun of those who believe that there is a God who created us - I mean the one that left evidence of His existence as found in the Christian Bible (which is the inspired word of this God) - or you are just desperate to find someone who can physically prove where God is so you can physically say hello.

Obviously if the God I just referred to exists, and we are in the state that we are in because it is His will, you really don't expect someone here to be able to physically show you God do you??
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post #133 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 09:07 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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A perfect god couldn't come up with one tube for food and one for air? C'mon. It's an awful design.



How else would you propose to find an answer? As far as I'm concerned the scientific method is the single best method we have for discovering how things work. It's the single best tool in the toolbox. You're like a person who decides that instead of saw, you're going to pray for the wood to cut itself.
Why is two tubes not over engineering? How would the design of the neck change to accommodate two tubes? What else would have to change? Sounds to me like you are a fan of engineering bloat.

Your single best method is an incredibly useful method, but it can't answer this question. I am not praying, I am looking at other tools. You are the one insisting there can only be one. There are many, many problems the scientific method cannot solve.
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post #134 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 09:10 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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So how were we created? There is only two methods to choose from 1) we evolved or we were created via luck and chance or 2) some force designed and created this world we live in including all Life.
Abiogensis followed by evolution.

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If you choose number #1, I will tell you that it can be proven that evolution does not hold water at all. If one understands the physical laws of the universe, it is impossible to have happened
If you can disprove evolution, please do so and collect your Nobel Prize. You'd be one of the most famous people of all time. Good luck!

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Or, more simply, you can examine in detail all living systems on earth - look at the brilliance of the design and how all life is intermingled and know that life on earth was created by a brilliant creator. Even a child can see this - and has no problem in believing in God.
Yes, yes, the tired old "just look at the trees" defense. Here's the thing, YOU HAVE NO PROOF. I could literally say Elvis created it all and have exactly the same amount of PROOF as you do.

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I have read your posts - you are either just bored and want to make fun of those who believe that there is a God who created us - I mean the one that left evidence of His existence as found in the Christian Bible (which is the inspired word of this God) - or you are just desperate to find someone who can physically prove where God is so you can physically say hello.
God physically revealed himself before, why can't he do so to us now? If he wants us to know and love him, he should do a better job of showing up every now and then.

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Obviously if the God I just referred to exists, and we are in the state that we are in because it is His will, you really don't expect someone here to be able to physically show you God do you??
Physically show me god? Meh, not really. Maybe just some evidence besides "just look at stuff around you" and appeals to the bible.
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post #135 of 220 (permalink) Old 01-06-2014, 09:25 PM
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Re: What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?

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Abiogensis followed by evolution.



If you can disprove evolution, please do so and collect your Nobel Prize. You'd be one of the most famous people of all time. Good luck!



Yes, yes, the tired old "just look at the trees" defense. Here's the thing, YOU HAVE NO PROOF. I could literally say Elvis created it all and have exactly the same amount of PROOF as you do.



God physically revealed himself before, why can't he do so to us now? If he wants us to know and love him, he should do a better job of showing up every now and then.



Physically show me god? Meh, not really. Maybe just some evidence besides "just look at stuff around you" and appeals to the bible.
Perhaps Elvis is God this is why it is important to separate whether God exists from who God is.

And I am I unaware of any proof for a biogenesis. Statement of faith?
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