Walking the line between standing and serving... - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-09-2014, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Walking the line between standing and serving...

WS attempting to R here
Is there any moving past this?


My wife and I have had 3 mild attempts to R so far and none of them have really made a dent as we tend to, when there are large bumps in the road, go back to rehashing the past. I am sorry for what I did. I started talking to an old friend who I though had nothing but platonic intentions, my wife felt threatened. I ignored her warnings and pleas and continued. Eventually I started hiding the relationship to avoid the conflict. I was caught, I ended the communication, and low and behold my wife was right. After I told the OW i couldn't be friends with her she began professing her love. My wife and I started the healing process, or so I thought. We bounced back and forth from R to talking about D for a year until I started watching porn. I have a high sex drive and my wives drive deteriorated drastically after the EA (perfectly understandable). I confessed the porn to her and we started dealing with it in counseling. Now my wife is back to not knowing where she wants to be. We have had some amazing times between now and the confession, but she says she is unsure and is now waiting fro God to tell her whether she should stay or go since she has Biblical grounds for divorce.

I love my wife dearly. She is incredibly hurt and angry and has been for almost a year now. We make progress, and then wind up back at square one. I want to make her happy. I also want to make sure that I am being the spiritual leader in my house that I am called to be. My wife curses me and yells a LOT. she went from being a soft spoken girl to a pistol with little to no respect for me because she feels my actions robbed me of the right to be respected. I am completely remorseful for what I did, so I am inclined to agree…but what now? I have told her that I am not okay with how we are now, that we are now both hurting because of the damage that has been done and we need to get back to being there for each other. I have asked for council form my church and am told to love my wife as I would want to be loved, and to be strong. the problem is that I am not strong at all. The rejection I feel is crippling. I spend most of my night crying in private because my tears now have zero affect on my wife despite the fact that she has only just recently seen this side of me.

So considering the depression that I am now dealing with and the self destructive thoughts from the rejection and the verbal abuse…what are Christians called to do? I have heard the suck it up marriage is hard piece and taken it to heart. but I feel like my wife is destroying me. My insecurity and loss of self worth roller coaster with every barrage of hate. I want to love as Christ loved, and I feel that it may be my penance for what I have done to her (this is what she has told me), but I am so defeated and empty at this point I don't know what to do….

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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-09-2014, 02:41 PM
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

Have you asked her what you could do to restore her trust?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-09-2014, 10:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

I have many times. She told me she doesn't know. Unfortunately after the conversation today this can officially be moved to the "dealing with divorce" section
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-10-2014, 01:32 AM
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

I believe you can move past this...and it is going to take for you to get the focus off your wife. I know she is the one who is injured and angry and all...but it sounds to me that you have admitted to her that she was right about the friend...and that you admitted to the porn. So you can move on from penance.

Don't give any more power to your wife's negative moods, by sulking, whining, begging, crying, pleading...or what ever soul-sucking slouch of shame that you feel you must do in order for her to come to forgive you. You can't squeeze forgiveness from her...she is responsible for that herself. At the same time, if this was a dealbreaker for her, then you have to be OK with that...seriously, you have to be OK. If she brings it up...just nod..and say "I can understand how you feel that way, and I am sorry that I brought you to that point...so I hope you will forgive me for it, cos I am moving on from that now and am going to take care of things that need to be taken care of. I am so sad by how I've hurt you...and I don't want to lose you, but I recognize I risked that when I didn't listen to you and then got myself involved in the porn. Yet, I am not going to live under the shame of that anymore, so if you need to leave, I won't fight it, I will release you...even though I love you more than anything and I want you in my life. Yet, if you decide to stay, then things can't be like this anymore...both of us are unhappy and that's not right...and I am going to do MY part to change that and I expect MY WIFE to do HER part to change that too. I have to mow the lawn, let me know what you decide."

In spirit what I am saying is don't shed another tear. TAKE ACTION. Don't let shame and your wife's sneers immobilize you into passivity...walking on eggshells and afraid to hit any relational landmines. You almost need to take an F - it attitude...don't look to your wife for guidance...make your own path to healing..no more whining...and just take care of business. This may cause her to take a step back just as you aren't so emotionally clinging to her as if she is carrying the executioner's axe to your marriage. Take your power back and let her know she is free to make up her own mind about what she wants to do. "If you wanna go, fine...I got stuff to do to be a better man and to have a better future, although I'd love it if you stayed...If you stay, then, WE got stuff we need to do, cos I still want to be a better man on my own terms, but I DO want to have a sexy, loving, supportive, dynamic, and terrific wife to have around...and you know what? I am going to have higher expectations for both of us. If that isn't going to play out for you, if you still think I haven't been in the dog-house long enough, then there's the door, I'll sign the papers if you send them, and then I guess I'll find a woman who is up to the challenge, cos MY WIFE indeed deserves better than what I have been offering, so i will will do that just for MY WIFE just as she is going to offer nothing but the best for me for now as well!"

This may seem a bit dramatic, but what I see is a huge power instability...where your wife is wielding a lot of power over you...and bringing up D...is just taking your leverage from you. This is why you shake it off, neither D nor she have authority over you, and that you have sought forgiveness and also followed up in counseling and will continue to do so...but living under this threat is unacceptable...so if she wants to go then she can go. Bye! I am not trying to make light of yourmarriage, but if you continue to cower and try to make an excuse for your existence...it will only result in her losing more respect and lean more towards leaving you. That is why you break off this shame over you and move forward in action and purpose and in leadership. If you struggle to meet all her needs, check off all her boxes, then you are just playing HER power and control game. Get out from under that condemnation and live like a free man again...and then she will start looking at you like "Who is this wild man?"

Last edited by FormerSelf; 01-10-2014 at 01:38 AM.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-10-2014, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

former self thank you for that heart felt and genuine response. I have definitely reached that place and have stopped all begging and pleading. my wife is making arrangements to move back home to her family in another state and has tasked me with getting the divorce sorted since I have free legal coverage and we can't really swing the costs out of pocket. I have been told to have her do it since it is something that she wants to do...
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 12:33 AM
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

O man, that's a bummer, i'm sorry to hear that...the best thing is to still stick to your gameplan about getting your life together. Yeah, releasing her is the honorable thing to do...even when you feel like it is the wrong choice...but people must have that freedom. You have a pretty decent reason to make this experience change you and you will look it it as the best thing that happened to you.
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 12:54 AM
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

I was having trouble with where she finds here grounds for divorce
the closest I come to is Matthew 5 v 27-28
" “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

From these verses it is clear that you have committed adultery with your heart ,not sure if this is the same with extramarital sex but that is another argument on it's own.

However from the same Matthew 5 v 21-22
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell

You say your wife curses you so she has committed murder with her words .

Both have sinned

Now will your wife be able to accept that she has sinned ?

Please forgive each other genuinely . Unless you had a PA or did something physical with the OW I don't think she has biblical grounds for divorce .

The more I think about it you might not even have a case to answer did you lust after this woman sir ? if yes then you are guilty if not then not guilty ,of cause we know she lusted after you that's her own problem not your own.
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 02:23 AM
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

What you must realize when reading the New Testament is that all those Hebrews were still observing the Law of Moses. The term "adultery" was defined by Leviticus 20:10 as a man having coitus with another man's wife. It's the married status of the woman in question that makes adultery "adultery;" i.e. adulteration of a man's legacy by the potential introduction of bastard children. It is impossible for a man to commit adultery against his wife, under the Law of Moses (and countries and some states) for the simple reason that a woman's line cannot be adulterated. It was completely lawful for men to have multiple wives, concubines, single women, and slave girls all at the same time. What was unlawful was copulating with another man's wife and adulterating the husband's offspring with bastards.

Jesus changed none of the above, except he did create a new class of adultery against a wife: he declared that a man who divorced a woman for no reason, merely so he could make room to replace her with another, presumably younger and hotter, woman, committed adultery against that wife. Notice it is not adultery to merely add another wife, it is adultery to cast out the wife to make room. This was also a problem in the Old Testamen, with the prophets saying a couple of times for the men to "remember the wife of thy youth." Jesus was restating that concern and equating such bad behavior with adultery by the wife. Basically saying these actions were equivalent in unfaithfulness, since the man was not providing for the woman as promised and the woman was not providing the man with exclusivity as promised.

In the teaching mentioned above by Jesus (adultery in your heart), it's essentially a restatement of Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor's Wife; the spiritual sin was committed before the sexual sin was. However, a woman cannot divorce a husband for adultery against her, at least not Biblically, other than the case of her husband committing actual physical adultery with another man's wife.

The upshot of all that is that Chouse's wife is in rebellion. However, her rationalization hamster will convince her that the Almighty will grant her a special dispensation (as usual). It doesn't help that much of the church has been off and on pushing the idea that men can adulterate against their wives for at least 1200 years. Of course, the "church father" Jerome said having sex with one's own wife was adultery.

Last edited by Machiavelli; 01-11-2014 at 02:30 AM.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

Did I lust after the woman I lied to my wife about meeting? NO
But i did conceal that meeting from my wife so that was a lie and for that I am obviously guilty. I lusted after the pornography and since I went as far to have cyber sex with a stranger on a shuffle chat site Im sure that is biblically lusting after another woman.
My wife is now saying she wants a divorce at the moment but in counseling stated if the papers were in from of her she would not sign. She thinks there is no hope for our marriage and she will never be able to love or trust again, but she does not want to "go through" a divorce. There were a lot of tears from her in this meeting…which I have not seen in quite some time. I do not want to have false hope but I would be lying if i said I didn't want to come out on the other side of this with my wife.

On the topic of serving and leading. How do we biblically differentiate between being the leader of the house and falling in to the trap of being the only one working in the relationship. My wife and I have been plagued with coming to "base" at different times. It seems it has been a long time since we were both working our butts off for the marriage at the same time. So I think my wives version of us R ing is for me to do all the work until she as the confidence to. I know this will just continue the cycle as it was. But is this was the Bible calls for men to do in "leading"?e

Last edited by chouse2312; 01-11-2014 at 10:53 AM. Reason: side note
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 04:02 PM
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

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Originally Posted by chouse2312 View Post
Did I lust after the woman I lied to my wife about meeting? NO
Was she married? If not, there is no way it can rise to the point of "adultery in your heart" (sticking with actual biblical definitions).

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But i did conceal that meeting from my wife so that was a lie and for that I am obviously guilty.
I don't know why you would lie about such a thing. Was it to avoid your wife going off and having an episode?

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I lusted after the pornography and since I went as far to have cyber sex with a stranger on a shuffle chat site Im sure that is biblically lusting after another woman.
Exceedingly lame to be sure, but even that probably doesn't reach the level of epithumia (the Greek new testament equivalent of "covet"), despite what you hear from the pulpit. Both of those terms indicate an actual intent to commit real adultery to the point where it is a consuming obsession (to pant after like a dog). Pornography is kind of stupid, especially these days with sex so available, but I again doubt that it can actually rise to the level of epithumia, since there is no way you're going to be able to get your hands on those women, assuming they are married, in the video.

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Originally Posted by chouse2312 View Post
My wife is now saying she wants a divorce at the moment but in counseling stated if the papers were in from of her she would not sign. She thinks there is no hope for our marriage and she will never be able to love or trust again, but she does not want to "go through" a divorce. There were a lot of tears from her in this meeting…which I have not seen in quite some time. I do not want to have false hope but I would be lying if i said I didn't want to come out on the other side of this with my wife.
Remind me as to what was your sex life like before you communicated with you your old female friend? And how old are you guys, anyway?

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On the topic of serving and leading. How do we biblically differentiate between being the leader of the house and falling in to the trap of being the only one working in the relationship. My wife and I have been plagued with coming to "base" at different times. It seems it has been a long time since we were both working our butts off for the marriage at the same time. So I think my wives version of us R ing is for me to do all the work until she as the confidence to. I know this will just continue the cycle as it was. But is this was the Bible calls for men to do in "leading"?e
I take it you are referring to: "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God." I Cor. 11:3

or maybe: "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord." Eph 5:22

That just means that you call the shots. It doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't consider her wisdom or even her wishes, but you are the skipper.

As that bolded section above: Your wife's version of this is that you conform to her will and submit to her authority.

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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 04:12 PM
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Was she married? If not, there is no way it can rise to the point of "adultery in your heart" (sticking with actual biblical definitions).



I don't know why you would lie about such a thing. Was it to avoid your wife going off and having an episode?



Exceedingly lame to be sure, but even that probably doesn't reach the level of epithumia (the Greek new testament equivalent of "covet"), despite what you hear from the pulpit. Both of those terms indicate an actual intent to commit real adultery to the point where it is a consuming obsession (to pant after like a dog). Pornography is kind of stupid, especially these days with sex so available, but I again doubt that it can actually rise to the level of epithumia, since there is no way you're going to be able to get your hands on those women, assuming they are married, in the video.



Remind me as to what was your sex life like before you communicated with you your old female friend? And how old are you guys, anyway?



I take it you are referring to: "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God." I Cor. 11:3

or maybe: "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord." Eph 5:22

That just means that you call the shots. It doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't consider her wisdom or even her wishes, but you are the skipper.

As that bolded section above: Your wife's version of this is that you conform to her will and submit to her authority.

Why shouldn't he do the work? He's the one who broke the trust. If this was a woman talking to another man and having cybersex with strangers the men of TAM would lose their minds telling him to go alpha and essentially "control his woman". I so love the use of the Bible as a line of defense in the face of sh!tty behavior. If you have to ask yourself if you're technically an adulterer according to the Bible that should be your first clue that you're wrong.
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 05:20 PM
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

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Why shouldn't he do the work? He's the one who broke the trust. If this was a woman talking to another man and having cybersex with strangers the men of TAM would lose their minds telling him to go alpha and essentially "control his woman". I so love the use of the Bible as a line of defense in the face of sh!tty behavior. If you have to ask yourself if you're technically an adulterer according to the Bible that should be your first clue that you're wrong.
Men and women are not, have never been, and never will be the same. Neither are the biblical requirements involving marriage. Suppose the OP had merely added another wife to his harem? Would she have control over that? Of course not.

There is only one way a man can commit adultery against his wife, according to Jesus, and that's to divorce her for no reason and replace her with another. There is nothing technical about it. Aside from that, adultery is a sin against a woman's husband by the adulteress and the adulterer.
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 05:28 PM
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Men and women are not, have never been, and never will be the same. Neither are the biblical requirements involving marriage. Suppose the OP had merely added another wife to his harem? Would she have control over that? Of course not.

There is only one way a man can commit adultery against his wife, according to Jesus, and that's to divorce her for no reason and replace her with another. There is nothing technical about it. Aside from that, adultery is a sin against a woman's husband by the adulteress and the adulterer.

How very convenient for men. It's always amazing to me how the most male dominated cultures in fact have the lowest standards for male behavior; male dominated religions are always a great source of double standards. If this is how he feels she's better off without him.
Go ahead and f$ck other women and tell your wife that as long as you don't dump her it's ok. See how that works for you.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 05:32 PM
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

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How very convenient for men. It's always amazing to me how the most male dominated cultures in fact have the lowest standards for male behavior.
The only female dominated culture in history I've ever heard of (aside from the Amazons, and they were imaginary) is the present Anglo-Celtic world.
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 05:33 PM
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Re: Walking the line between standing and serving...

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Go ahead and f$ck other women and tell your wife that as long as you don't dump her it's ok. See how that works for you.
It may or may not be okay. It all depends on what was in his vows. Most Churchian marriage vows do not have a biblical basis. In my case, my vows included "forsaking all others," so the harem is out. That doesn't mean the vows have a biblical source, though.
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