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post #31 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 01:25 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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Being married to your rapist isn't very fair or merciful to the victim of the rape.
Have you read the whole book of Deuteronomy? Do you know what God is doing? He is trying to PURGE evil amongst his own people........He is laying down the law basically... and yes a woman who had been taken and thrown away by a man would never have been able to marry again. Even through a rape there can be hope...nothing is impossible with GOD.

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post #32 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 01:52 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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Actually, I meant and further explained that he was probably treated poorly by her family. Not sure if I explained that well. I never thought he would be treated well by her family.



No, that's what I meant when I said I didn't understand why He would want the rapist to marry the victim. Why would that be any good for the woman/wife/rape victim?

I know, like I said, which I don't think was clear, her family would probably treat him with the disrespect and dishonor he deserves, making him a servant to the family and their daughter. However, I mentioned that might lead to abuse or adultery, which would get her away from her rapist/husband. Maybe that clears it up a little? Seems like you thought the woman's rapist/husband would be treated well. Not sure if that was because of the emoticon I used or not, but I meant the victim/woman's family would make her husband's life miserable. Hope you understand that, now.



Which is why I commented that it seemed like, as long as the victim's family is around, his punishment might be carried out by them in some manner. How does that not punish the victim more, by having her sleep with her rapist? Isn't that a law of marriage? A wife was expected to submit? I mean, seems like a punishment for her.



I'm not sure he should die, since he didn't murder anyone, but I do understand the severity to the families of both betrothed and to the betrothed themselves in dishonor and possible slander. I understand the physical and mental trauma of the rape victim, to some extent. The victim could be ostracized as sometimes happens today. I'm assuming those are the reasons for the death penalty. However, that's neither here nor there. I wonder if that was God's reason or man's? It certainly doesn't seem like something Christ would say when He spoke of forgiveness of sins. Although, the man on the cross hanging next to him, was not freed from his suffering. Only his sins were forgiven. In that case, it was the punishment of Rome and in this rape case above, it was God's chosen people who lived in a country with laws following a religion. So, I'm not so sure they are good comparisons.

The other case we were talking about was if the woman was not betrothed. As I asked above, what in the world could be the reason they should get married?

Thanks for taking the time to explain this. I hope you understand I wasn't condoning rape. That wasn't my intention. I think I wasn't clear.
Your sound very wise and intelligent. You make great points. I have been a believer all my life and topics like this grieve me. I don't understand it but I live my life on Faith. I agree with you, how could any good come out of a situation like this.


It isn't fair that a woman who is raped is bound to the man for life. God's wonderful wisdom is so much greater than my little human mind though..If God commanded the rapist to marry his victim, ideally the couple would be able to work through the pain and heal becoming a strong unit....very, very hard even unimaginable but possible through God's grace and mercy.....

The Book of Deuteronomy is basically a new law for the children of Israel. God's people had no moral compass before this, hard to believe I know.

I also look to King David's story. He committed adultery with Bathsheba while her husband, Uriah, is in battle for King David, they conceive a child, the child dies and King David has the husband Uriah killed!! An innocent man!!

Nathan, David's close friend shows him his sin...David repents and marry's poor stricken Bathsheba. David has been known to be a man after God's own heart!!! All of this is still so foreign to me as a human... I mean if a man can commit adultery, have the husband killed, lose a baby and still be saved by grace......GOD IS A MERCIFUL AND FORGIVING GOD.

God's ways are higher than our way's ....

Blessings
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post #33 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 08:17 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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Have you read the whole book of Deuteronomy? Do you know what God is doing? He is trying to PURGE evil amongst his own people........He is laying down the law basically... and yes a woman who had been taken and thrown away by a man would never have been able to marry again. Even through a rape there can be hope...nothing is impossible with GOD.
Watching Christians fall over themselves trying to justify passages like this is one of my favorite things to do. Give you the rope and let you hang yourself. One of the many reasons I'm so happy to have left religion. No more trying my brain in knots trying to justify the horrifying crap in the bible.

Yes, god's trying to purge evil, by making rape victims marry their rapist. Brilliant. What a wonderful plan the all-knowing, all-loving creator of the universe came up with.
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post #34 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 08:22 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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It isn't fair that a woman who is raped is bound to the man for life. God's wonderful wisdom is so much greater than my little human mind though..If God commanded the rapist to marry his victim, ideally the couple would be able to work through the pain and heal becoming a strong unit....very, very hard even unimaginable but possible through God's grace and mercy.....
If there really is evil in the world, this is it. This right here.

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The Book of Deuteronomy is basically a new law for the children of Israel. God's people had no moral compass before this, hard to believe I know.

I also look to King David's story. He committed adultery with Bathsheba while her husband, Uriah, is in battle for King David, they conceive a child, the child dies and King David has the husband Uriah killed!! An innocent man!!

Nathan, David's close friend shows him his sin...David repents and marry's poor stricken Bathsheba. David has been known to be a man after God's own heart!!! All of this is still so foreign to me as a human... I mean if a man can commit adultery, have the husband killed, lose a baby and still be saved by grace......GOD IS A MERCIFUL AND FORGIVING GOD.

God's ways are higher than our way's ....
Yes, killing an innocent child to teach David a lesson. Only in religion is this a good thing. How merciful.
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post #35 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 09:19 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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Are you a pastor?
Why do you ask?

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Are you a Christian...Father/Son/Holy Spirit...the 3 in 1...Christ is your Redeemer?
I'm a Christian, but I'm not a churchian.
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post #36 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 10:27 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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wow, I love that!! I am a Christian, but I suppose not overly conservative... whatever that means. My faith does play somewhat of a role in my views on divorce, but it's not the main reason. I guess it's both a faith thing and a moral thing, more that I'm trying to honor my vows of "for better or worse" by trying everything I can before giving up. It was a promise made, one that can be made whether you are religious or an atheist, and I want to try my best to keep that promise.
My in laws have been married for over 55 years, very religious but she will not tolorate any disrespect. They still hold hands when they walk together.
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post #37 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 11:53 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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My in laws have been married for over 55 years, very religious but she will not tolorate any disrespect. They still hold hands when they walk together.
Maybe she forces him? Just teasing, but that was the way I read it. "You better hold my hand, or else." "Ah, yes ma'am."

I had grandparents that were married a very long time. They died in their late eighties and were never married to anyone else. Grandma was 20 when mum was born, so, you do the math. It doesn't mean my grandparents were happy, just committed and content.

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post #38 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 10:25 PM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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Could it be the lesson is to promote marriage, sex within marriage, and children? Maybe rape and marriage to the woman or death depending on the woman's status, was just a metaphor or some other word I can't think of right now , and so, they wanted everyone to know how important they believed these principles were? Just a little food for thought.
As I said, there is room for discussion about whether "lay hands on" necessarily means forcible rape, since the "force in" from the other verses isn't present, but it certainly may do so, since seduction is covered in Exodus. To understand the milieu of the times, you need to understand there was no real central law authority over the nation other than the Judge over Israel and the priests. The cities were essentially self-governing. At the time, the Bible says, "every man did that which was right in his own eyes." No police, only posses of riled up citizens.

Basically, women were married at puberty, so it's not like there are large numbers of virgin potential rape victims wandering about, especially in the violent times of ancient Israel. Unlike what one poster claimed, a bride-price had to be paid by the groom or his family. In earlier societies where wives were considered low value/status, women brought a dowry to the marriage; basically a payoff to the groom to take her off the family's hands. When women were valued with higher status, as in Israel, then men paid a bride-price to compensate the family for the loss. Naturally, virgins had a higher sexual market value, just as they have today, so families had a keen interest in making sure they were intact on the wedding day.

As a British judge said 400 years ago, "rape is an easy accusation to make and a hard one to prove." For that reason, discovery in the act or immediately thereafter, was required in all the scriptures referencing rape. In the case of the unbetrothed virgin, per Deut 22:29, 50 shekels of silver was the cash price to the family. Shekels were about 10.5 grams, so this would be 525 grams of silver. At that time, this would be about five years labor. Twenty shekels would be the price of a slave at the time, so this was a pretty good financial hit for the rapist, if this verse is addressing rape.

As for the shotgun marriage with no divorce (actually "put away") by the husband, this was a guarantee of lifetime support. Also, note that the father can veto the shotgun marriage while collecting the bride-price in the case of seduction of a virgin, so this would also be a possibility in this case as well.
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post #39 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 11:11 PM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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Watching Christians fall over themselves trying to justify passages like this is one of my favorite things to do. Give you the rope and let you hang yourself. One of the many reasons I'm so happy to have left religion. No more trying my brain in knots trying to justify the horrifying crap in the bible.

Yes, god's trying to purge evil, by making rape victims marry their rapist. Brilliant. What a wonderful plan the all-knowing, all-loving creator of the universe came up with.
With all due respect, please don't judge me or other Christians. We don't fall all over ourselves to justify passages in the Bible. We are believers and are anticipating our death to GO HOME to HEAVEN. We are ALL going to die one day. ..For you to offer a rope to us to hang ourselves is just VERY bad taste and character.. I feel for you, that whatever happened to you in or out of the church or religion as you call it, really scarred you. Most of the time I do not understand it myself....Life and death are so very hard to deal with....sometimes I wonder myself....where is God???

Why do you have such hatred towards Scripture and the Holy Gospel?

Last edited by over20; 01-28-2014 at 06:49 AM.
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post #40 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 11:16 PM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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Why do you ask?



I'm a Christian, but I'm not a churchian.
I only asked because you sound very well read. Your vocab is extraordinary and you write as if you have a theological background.

I meant it as a compliment

Blessings

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post #41 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 11:22 PM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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I only asked because you sound very well read. Your vocab is extraordinary and you write as if you have a theological background.

I meant it as a compliment

Blessings
Thanks very much for those compliments. I'm just a regular Christian who has an interest in knowing the whys and wherefores of my beliefs. I do have formal for-credit instruction in these topics at the post secondary level, strictly for my own knowledge. I'm not nor have I ever been a pastor or any other type of professional Christian.
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post #42 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-28-2014, 01:25 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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As I said, there is room for discussion about whether "lay hands on" necessarily means forcible rape, since the "force in" from the other verses isn't present, but it certainly may do so, since seduction is covered in Exodus. To understand the milieu of the times, you need to understand there was no real central law authority over the nation other than the Judge over Israel and the priests. The cities were essentially self-governing. At the time, the Bible says, "every man did that which was right in his own eyes." No police, only posses of riled up citizens.

Basically, women were married at puberty, so it's not like there are large numbers of virgin potential rape victims wandering about, especially in the violent times of ancient Israel. Unlike what one poster claimed, a bride-price had to be paid by the groom or his family. In earlier societies where wives were considered low value/status, women brought a dowry to the marriage; basically a payoff to the groom to take her off the family's hands. When women were valued with higher status, as in Israel, then men paid a bride-price to compensate the family for the loss. Naturally, virgins had a higher sexual market value, just as they have today, so families had a keen interest in making sure they were intact on the wedding day.

As a British judge said 400 years ago, "rape is an easy accusation to make and a hard one to prove." For that reason, discovery in the act or immediately thereafter, was required in all the scriptures referencing rape. In the case of the unbetrothed virgin, per Deut 22:29, 50 shekels of silver was the cash price to the family. Shekels were about 10.5 grams, so this would be 525 grams of silver. At that time, this would be about five years labor. Twenty shekels would be the price of a slave at the time, so this was a pretty good financial hit for the rapist, if this verse is addressing rape.

As for the shotgun marriage with no divorce (actually "put away") by the husband, this was a guarantee of lifetime support. Also, note that the father can veto the shotgun marriage while collecting the bride-price in the case of seduction of a virgin, so this would also be a possibility in this case as well.
Unless I'm mistaken, that's an affirmative on what I wrote.

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"And this, too, shall pass away."
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post #43 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-28-2014, 01:59 AM
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Maybe she forces him? Just teasing, but that was the way I read it. "You better hold my hand, or else." "Ah, yes ma'am."

I had grandparents that were married a very long time. They died in their late eighties and were never married to anyone else. Grandma was 20 when mum was born, so, you do the math. It doesn't mean my grandparents were happy, just committed and content.
She nags like any wife, but I see them happy actually. They still travel and he's the one that starts to hand holding. You can also hear them talking for hours. Funny thing, he gets jealous if a man says she looks nice. she just rolls her eyes.
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post #44 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-28-2014, 02:07 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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She nags like any wife, but I see them happy actually. They still travel and he's the one that starts to hand holding. You can also hear them talking for hours. Funny thing, he gets jealous if a man says she looks nice. she just rolls her eyes.
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Now that's nice. I never saw much of that in my own family. I tried to do that as much as possible with x2. I just loved holding her hand. It's just a feeling of oneness for me and an expression of love. It always felt comfortable to do when walking together. If we didn't hold hands, I felt like something was wrong or missing.

That's a sweet story. I hope you have taken a few pictures of that. My mum's parents slept in separate bedrooms, ever since I can remember. It was really odd. He was an odd fellow for some reason. He had a fairly high I.Q. I think something happened to him. I never really was told what it was.

Thanks for sharing that story and you know, I hope, that I was teasing. I think it's sweet.

"I'm significant!! Screamed the dust speck." - Bill Watterson

"And this, too, shall pass away."
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post #45 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-28-2014, 09:45 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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With all due respect, please don't judge me or other Christians. We don't fall all over ourselves to justify passages in the Bible. We are believers and are anticipating our death to GO HOME to HEAVEN. We are ALL going to die one day. ..For you to offer a rope to us to hang ourselves is just VERY bad taste and character.. I feel for you, that whatever happened to you in or out of the church or religion as you call it, really scarred you. Most of the time I do not understand it myself....Life and death are so very hard to deal with....sometimes I wonder myself....where is God???

Why do you have such hatred towards Scripture and the Holy Gospel?
Why do I hate it? Read your responses in this thread. I assume you're an intelligent, reasonable person. And yet here you are telling me how all this marry your rapist stuff is actually good. Think about that.

And for the record, nothing ever happened in my life or in the church that scarred me. I don't know why Christians always immediately jump to that conclusion. The only thing that happened to me was that I decided to apply my logic and reason to everything in my life, not just everything minus god.
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