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post #61 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-28-2014, 05:53 PM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

MATTHEW CHAPTER 18


So, Arb, I'd like to ask if Christ is the Word of God, and He spoke in parables while in human form, would much of the Old Testament also be in some sort of parable which makes it hard to understand as my previous post suggests? Not all will understand or be able to accept?
Christ did not wander around like some parable jukebox. But I think it's a respected opinion that different parts of the bible are different kinds of literature, and should be read with that in mind.

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post #62 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-28-2014, 06:43 PM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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I really don't understand this. I thought Christ came, not to change the word, but to fulfill it? He stated he did speak in parables, as I posted.
He spoke in parables sometimes, but not always. For example, the beatitudes, the sermon on the mount, throwing the money lenders from the temple, and his words on the cross were not parables. And I assume he said mundane things like "pass the bread please" or "where is the loo" as well.

I was responding to the notion that the old testament might also be parables. For example, Pslams and Song of Solomon are poetry, Chronicles and Kings are history, Leviticus is law, and so on. Same applies in the new testament. If you try to read Revelation or Acts with the same mindset as Paul's letters, it doesn't work. Even the logic used in Romans is very different from that in Hebrews, for example...because they were written to different audiences, I understand.
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post #63 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-28-2014, 08:29 PM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

In reply to 2ntnuf,

You can read the same book at different times in your life, and it means different things.

Long ago I read a religious text called 'Dao de qing' and it seemed to be all contradictory nonsense.

Now it all makes crystal clear sense. Perhaps one day I won't understand it again, or it will have a whole different meaning.

But I think lots of preachers take liberties with interpretation, and, the first time round when we read something, we should read it minus someone else's interpretation.

One example: "father why have you abandoned me?"

Somehow the Trinitarians have interpreted this to mean he was talking to himself, from God the son to God the father.

Much simpler to not 'interpret' and just say that at that point (at the least) he was not 'God'.

Just look at the controversy this one phrase has produced! (bottom of the page) There's no need for it except to justify a church dogma, to dig themselves out of a hole they had made when they declared Arianism a heresy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayings...s_on_the_cross
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post #64 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-28-2014, 09:04 PM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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So, I always interpreted that passage to mean, at that moment, Jesus took all the sin of past present and future upon Himself. He could not longer see the Father, since the father was light and he was darkness. For Jesus to exist with all darkness upon Him, the Father must not be in that same space at the same time. As hell is an absence of God, so with sin, we can only know it's sin when God is not present. If God were there, we would not know it was sin.

I'm still fighting though. Still fighting.
It was only my opinion, we won't know what was the correct way to read all our holy books until after we're dead, and then it's too late! We just better hope that Islam is not the true religion, because I don't fancy drinking molten lead and eating thorns for eternity - while suffering eternal hunger and thirst which will drive us to do so. As it happens, it makes little sense for a God to want to punish man eternally for a few decades of disrespect. No point to that. Something a Satan-type would do, not a Creator.

But you can see how complicated the light and darkness explanation is. A guy is dying to death on a cross, and he says something that sounds straightforward, like he's talking to God as you and I might do. Then 325 years later, some bishops who weren't at the scene, get together and decide it means something less obvious, that he's speaking in a one-man code. It just doesn't help things if someone is sending a message which his hearers are incapable of understanding without an enigma device.

I can't remember who wrote it, but someone did, that the story of Jesus would be more powerful if the message was 'here is a good man, who so impressed God with his uprightness, that he became number one in heaven' rather than 'God "had a go" at being a man for a while'. In the first case, it also sends the message: think twice before picking on the small guy - you never know who he might be friends with!

Otherwise, for example, Judas becomes just a puppet playing a pre-ordained part, which kind of turns it into a pantomime. JMO! (Sesame street was brought to you today by the letter 'p')

Last edited by Sandfly; 01-28-2014 at 09:10 PM.
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post #65 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-29-2014, 02:21 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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How have your religious beliefs affected your opinions on divorce?


My faith tells me that God hates divorce. However, divorce is allowed in certain situations due to mankind’s failures. My faith tells me that the lame excuses that some use to divorce are cop outs. Excuses like “We just grew apart” and “it just happened and I fell in love with someone else, can’t explain it”


My faith tells me that marriage and divorce are serious events and for me not to buy into some of the modern culture’s politically correct cop outs. Divorce almost always hurts incent children and that is probably another reason God hates divorce.
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post #66 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-29-2014, 04:54 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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My faith tells me that God hates divorce. However, divorce is allowed in certain situations due to mankind’s failures. My faith tells me that the lame excuses that some use to divorce are cop outs. Excuses like “We just grew apart” and “it just happened and I fell in love with someone else, can’t explain it”

I hear you, Mr. Blunt. I know it is not popular to say these things, and I feel a lot of compassion for people who are suffering.

But sometimes I think we humans are just selfish. I think we want our own way and we do not consider the other person. I am like this. I speak from experience.

And where is the sorrow when we know we have offended our spouse? Where is the repentance, the asking of forgiveness after confessing our lack of caring, our unkindness, our disrespect? Where is the humility?


My faith tells me that marriage and divorce are serious events and for me not to buy into some of the modern culture’s politically correct cop outs. Divorce almost always hurts incent children and that is probably another reason God hates divorce.
That is how I see this, too. My marriage is sacred to me. I think my dh is the best thing that ever happened to me. I feel so grateful to him. I just feel he has been so kind and patient with me. I feel bad when I am not as considerate in return.

And I think as long as a woman is with a man worthy of this kind of esteem, she is safe. And that is why I feel like I am always urging men to become secure, to become men worthy of a woman's trust. But then I am accused of "putting all the responsibility on the man."

What do you think of that, Mr. Blunt? Doesn't a real man just naturally take responsibility for his wife and children? Isn't that why they all have his name?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #67 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-29-2014, 09:06 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

2ntnuf, I am going to ask my husband to respond to your post. He is very busy, but I hope in the next few days he will be able to. Thank you for your post.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #68 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-29-2014, 11:20 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

I was raised in a very religious household (Catholic) and as a child I was a true believer. As I true into adulthood my lingering doubts moved me to become non-practising and eventually agnostic.

Now, if you define "God" as anything resembling the Being envisioned in any of the Western religions then I now consider myself an atheist. My complete loss of faith was at least partially the result of what I see as seemingly irrational and arbitrary rules regarding things like marriage. And perhaps more so, the ability of apparently well-meaning, intelligent and religious people to have fundamentally differing view on such basic issues as pre-martial sex, masturbation, marriage and divorce.

Given the supposed stakes involved, why would a divine being leave any opportunity for doubt about his will?

I actually believe there is merit in marriage as an institution and I don't think it should ever be left without serious soul searching. I am mindful of the fact that "no matter where you go, you are there." So the problems in your current relationship may very well follow you unless you focus on yourself. People tend to fluctuate around a base level of happiness regardless of the circumstances.

But what does bother me more and more and makes me less tolerant of religion in general is the heartache and misery caused by people staying in dysfunctional marriages for religious reasons with spouses who are obviously abusive or simply sociopathic.
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post #69 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-30-2014, 01:52 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce


By jld
That is how I see this, too. My marriage is sacred to me. I think my dh is the best thing that ever happened to me. I feel so grateful to him. I just feel he has been so kind and patient with me. I feel bad when I am not as considerate in return.

And I think as long as a woman is with a man worthy of this kind of esteem, she is safe. And that is why I feel like I am always urging men to become secure, to become men worthy of a woman's trust. But then I am accused of "putting all the responsibility on the man."

What do you think of that, Mr. Blunt? Doesn't a real man just naturally take responsibility for his wife and children? Isn't that why they all have his name?


Quote:
By jld
What do you think of that, Mr. Blunt? Doesn't a real man just naturally take responsibility for his wife and children? Isn't that why they all have his name?

Right on my sister I agree 100%!



Quote:
That is how I see this, too. My marriage is sacred to me. I think my dh is the best thing that ever happened to me. I feel so grateful to him. I just feel he has been so kind and patient with me. I feel bad when I am not as considerate in return.
What a great attitude! I know lots of men that would love to have their wife have that attitude. You are the kind of woman a good man will fight for. Keep working on any points that you have that you feel you can improve on. You already have one of the biggest battles won, your attitude, gratefulness and appreciation is outstanding!
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post #70 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-30-2014, 03:23 AM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

Well, that was very kind, Mr. Blunt. Thank you. And I am going to show your post to my dh!

And, believe me, he lets me know where I need to improve. He is not shy about making me aware of my shortcomings. And I do appreciate that . . . even if I am defensive at first.

But he is kind to me, and loving, and can even admit his own shortcomings once in a while.

I just think marriage requires humility on both sides, as in a real willingness to be open and admit when we are wrong.

I mean, if we want to improve as a couple, we have to listen to each other, right?


One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #71 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-30-2014, 03:22 PM
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Re: Religious Beliefs and Divorce

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I was raised in a very religious household (Catholic) and as a child I was a true believer. As I true into adulthood my lingering doubts moved me to become non-practising and eventually agnostic.

Now, if you define "God" as anything resembling the Being envisioned in any of the Western religions then I now consider myself an atheist. My complete loss of faith was at least partially the result of what I see as seemingly irrational and arbitrary rules regarding things like marriage. And perhaps more so, the ability of apparently well-meaning, intelligent and religious people to have fundamentally differing view on such basic issues as pre-martial sex, masturbation, marriage and divorce.

Given the supposed stakes involved, why would a divine being leave any opportunity for doubt about his will?

I actually believe there is merit in marriage as an institution and I don't think it should ever be left without serious soul searching. I am mindful of the fact that "no matter where you go, you are there." So the problems in your current relationship may very well follow you unless you focus on yourself. People tend to fluctuate around a base level of happiness regardless of the circumstances.

But what does bother me more and more and makes me less tolerant of religion in general is the heartache and misery caused by people staying in dysfunctional marriages for religious reasons with spouses who are obviously abusive or simply sociopathic.
It's a complex discussion, but the older I get, the more I understand of human frailty and heartbreak, the more the Christian teaching on marriage and sex makes sense to me, just as values in themselves, regardless of whether there is a God behind them.

Maybe some parts of the Christian model are less applicable in the modern world. For example, marriage is a balance between emotional and financial imperatives, and we have room to put more emphasis on the emotional. But the basic idea that we will be happier if we think of others, not just ourselves, and control our sexuality more than it controls us, are as current today as they ever were.

As to why a divine being did not make things clearer...the situations are not black and white. How can the instructions for dealing with them be any use if they don't accept there are grey areas in life?
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